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modernism/postmodernism, was Re: CL and modernism

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  • patrickdlogan
    ... Smalltalk as representing a bare-maximums that work to make me productive in building interesting or complex systems. I find those bare-minimum languages
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 2, 2002
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      >> I like to think of ZetaLisp, CL and
      Smalltalk as representing a
      bare-maximums that work to make me
      productive in building interesting
      or complex
      systems. I find those bare-minimum
      languages to be like living in a
      tent, something that can be fun for a day
      or two but not a serious
      place to live. I find
      that working with a collection of little
      languages and tools is
      somewhat like living in a tent city. <<

      I think this is why Scheme in a JVM works
      so well for me. The JVM enables a very
      feature rich environment and Scheme enables
      a very powerful way to access the
      environment. This feels "bare maximum" in
      the sense that a Lisp machine used to feel
      that way, plus it grows with every useful
      Java class I find on the net. Kind of a
      dessert topping *and* a floor wax.
    • Mike Beedle
      ... Patrick wrote: Yep, sometime the tent just comes down in the middle of a storm. I recently gave up the prescriptive Java/XML implementation of a WFMC
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 21, 2002
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        Patrick Logan wrote:
        > >> I like to think of ZetaLisp, CL and
        > Smalltalk as representing a
        > bare-maximums that work to make me
        > productive in building interesting
        > or complex
        > systems. I find those bare-minimum
        > languages to be like living in a
        > tent, something that can be fun for a day
        > or two but not a serious
        > place to live. I find
        > that working with a collection of little
        > languages and tools is
        > somewhat like living in a tent city. <<

        Patrick wrote:

        Yep, sometime the tent just comes down in the middle
        of a storm.

        I recently gave up the prescriptive Java/XML
        implementation of a WFMC (workflow management coalition)
        compliant workflow management system (because of
        language and paradigm limitations), and turned the
        workflow system into a declarative CLIPS implementation
        using Jess. (Our goal is to eventually provide the
        implementation in SweetJess, Jess's XML cousin that uses
        DAML+OIL and Rule ML so that we can program in "XML" and
        satisfy what corporate America wants to hear:

        "It is in Java and in XML"

        we'll give them SweetJess :-) which is of course a
        logical-functional Trojan horse.

        Our code in Jess is about 1/5 of what it used to be and
        I can do things that are nearly impossible using
        the prescriptive and XML forms.

        Did I mention that it is also mobile, concurrent safe,
        and changeable at runtime (dynamic rules, functions, facts
        created on the fly)?

        The next release of Jess will add Lisp-like macros ....

        Btw, does anyone know of a native CLIPS implementation in
        Lisp? (Currently I added a PROLOG library to my lisp but
        it doesn't quite feel like CLIPS.)

        Patrick Logan wrote:
        > I think this is why Scheme in a JVM works
        > so well for me. The JVM enables a very
        > feature rich environment and Scheme enables
        > a very powerful way to access the
        > environment. This feels "bare maximum" in
        > the sense that a Lisp machine used to feel
        > that way, plus it grows with every useful
        > Java class I find on the net. Kind of a
        > dessert topping *and* a floor wax.

        Scheme is definitely a good place to be. In my case
        I needed features that were more akin to Curry (the
        logical Haskell cousin). In fact, in the future
        we are considering using the Xurry virtual machine (a logical-functional
        virtual machine that sits on top of Java).

        Some rough estimates indicate that our Xurry code will
        be between 1/5 and 1/10 of what our original wfmc
        prescriptive code used to look like,

        - Mike
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