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Re: [feyerabend-project] modernism/postmodernism, was Re: CL and modernism

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  • Erann Gat
    ... I think telling the truth doesn t work. I can t think of a single example where the truth has prevailed over good marketing. Having some truth on
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 2, 2002
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      On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Pascal Costanza wrote:

      > We can change "the world" either by telling people "the
      > truth", or essentially by playing the same game. These are two different
      > strategies.

      ...

      > What do the others think? Who of you is for or against telling the truth
      > and/or playing the same game?

      I think "telling the truth" doesn't work. I can't think of a single
      example where "the truth" has prevailed over good marketing. Having some
      truth on your side makes the marketing job easier, but it isn't necessary,
      and it certainly isn't sufficient.

      > P.S.: Yes, I think this is a valid Feyerabend topic...

      I agree.

      E.
    • patrickdlogan
      ... Smalltalk as representing a bare-maximums that work to make me productive in building interesting or complex systems. I find those bare-minimum languages
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 2, 2002
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        >> I like to think of ZetaLisp, CL and
        Smalltalk as representing a
        bare-maximums that work to make me
        productive in building interesting
        or complex
        systems. I find those bare-minimum
        languages to be like living in a
        tent, something that can be fun for a day
        or two but not a serious
        place to live. I find
        that working with a collection of little
        languages and tools is
        somewhat like living in a tent city. <<

        I think this is why Scheme in a JVM works
        so well for me. The JVM enables a very
        feature rich environment and Scheme enables
        a very powerful way to access the
        environment. This feels "bare maximum" in
        the sense that a Lisp machine used to feel
        that way, plus it grows with every useful
        Java class I find on the net. Kind of a
        dessert topping *and* a floor wax.
      • Mike Beedle
        ... Patrick wrote: Yep, sometime the tent just comes down in the middle of a storm. I recently gave up the prescriptive Java/XML implementation of a WFMC
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 21, 2002
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          Patrick Logan wrote:
          > >> I like to think of ZetaLisp, CL and
          > Smalltalk as representing a
          > bare-maximums that work to make me
          > productive in building interesting
          > or complex
          > systems. I find those bare-minimum
          > languages to be like living in a
          > tent, something that can be fun for a day
          > or two but not a serious
          > place to live. I find
          > that working with a collection of little
          > languages and tools is
          > somewhat like living in a tent city. <<

          Patrick wrote:

          Yep, sometime the tent just comes down in the middle
          of a storm.

          I recently gave up the prescriptive Java/XML
          implementation of a WFMC (workflow management coalition)
          compliant workflow management system (because of
          language and paradigm limitations), and turned the
          workflow system into a declarative CLIPS implementation
          using Jess. (Our goal is to eventually provide the
          implementation in SweetJess, Jess's XML cousin that uses
          DAML+OIL and Rule ML so that we can program in "XML" and
          satisfy what corporate America wants to hear:

          "It is in Java and in XML"

          we'll give them SweetJess :-) which is of course a
          logical-functional Trojan horse.

          Our code in Jess is about 1/5 of what it used to be and
          I can do things that are nearly impossible using
          the prescriptive and XML forms.

          Did I mention that it is also mobile, concurrent safe,
          and changeable at runtime (dynamic rules, functions, facts
          created on the fly)?

          The next release of Jess will add Lisp-like macros ....

          Btw, does anyone know of a native CLIPS implementation in
          Lisp? (Currently I added a PROLOG library to my lisp but
          it doesn't quite feel like CLIPS.)

          Patrick Logan wrote:
          > I think this is why Scheme in a JVM works
          > so well for me. The JVM enables a very
          > feature rich environment and Scheme enables
          > a very powerful way to access the
          > environment. This feels "bare maximum" in
          > the sense that a Lisp machine used to feel
          > that way, plus it grows with every useful
          > Java class I find on the net. Kind of a
          > dessert topping *and* a floor wax.

          Scheme is definitely a good place to be. In my case
          I needed features that were more akin to Curry (the
          logical Haskell cousin). In fact, in the future
          we are considering using the Xurry virtual machine (a logical-functional
          virtual machine that sits on top of Java).

          Some rough estimates indicate that our Xurry code will
          be between 1/5 and 1/10 of what our original wfmc
          prescriptive code used to look like,

          - Mike
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