Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [feyerabend-project] Re: Fear and loathing in Sardinia

Expand Messages
  • Brian Marick
    In a world where developers, users, and funders (customers) are distinct groups, I believe agile methods are, on average, ... - definitely better for
    Message 1 of 10 , May 31, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      In a world where developers, users, and funders (customers) are distinct
      groups, I believe agile methods are, on average, ...
      - definitely better for developers
      - quite likely better for funders
      - not necessarily better or worse for users
      ... than conventional/torpid/other methods.

      At 02:21 PM 5/31/01 , you wrote:
      >--- In feyerabend-project@y..., Brian Marick <marick@t...> wrote:
      >> That last sentence is a bit much. For mass market software, lots of
      >the
      >> agile techniques apply (Scrum's and XP's standup meetings, emphasis
      >on
      >> growing a design, etc.).
      >
      >But that's sort of the whole point. YOU're growing the design. The
      >customer still gives requirements and the developers are still the
      >only ones with the hammer in their hands. Alexander had a much more
      >inclusive vision of how houses should be constructed, with the
      >inhabitant out there sawing holes in and plastering walls, lifting
      >beams into place, etc. I am not a trained electrician, but, after
      >the building is constructed, I should still be able to tap into the
      >wiring to add a light somewhere. Same with software "tinkering".
      >
      >The "customer" in XP, although closer to the developer, is still
      >isolated from the code and design. XP and its agile ilk certainly do
      >not prescribe the user getting to a point where he can effect change
      >on the code himself (nor does it lead by default to systems
      >constructed so this can happen). In fact, XP, making it easier for
      >the customer to get from the "trained professionals" what he/she
      >wants, may actually lead to a regression in the balance of "code
      >power" between the professional developer and user.
      >
      >faa
      >
      >
      >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >feyerabend-project-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      --
      Brian Marick, marick@...
      www.testing.com - Software testing services and resources
      www.testingcraft.com - Where software testers exchange techniques
      www.visibleworkings.com - Adequate understanding of system internals
    • fadrian@qwest.net
      ... distinct ... Aye - probably true. However... The Buddhists have a saying: If you meet the Buddha along the road, kill him. It is their way of noting
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 1, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In feyerabend-project@y..., Brian Marick <marick@t...> wrote:
        > In a world where developers, users, and funders (customers) are
        distinct
        > groups, I believe agile methods are, on average, ...
        > - definitely better for developers
        > - quite likely better for funders
        > - not necessarily better or worse for users
        > ... than conventional/torpid/other methods.

        Aye - probably true. However...

        The Buddhists have a saying: "If you meet the Buddha along the road,
        kill him." It is their way of noting that an attachment to Buddha
        and his path (although useful at first) is still an attachment and
        that it will still prevent one from achieving enlightenment.

        XP "turns the knobs to 10", but they're still the same knobs.

        Progress will be made when we remove the producer/consumer
        dichotomy. Deconstruct it yourself, Brian, and envision the world
        without this barrier. Forget the knobs and smash the amp. If you
        meet XP along the road, kill it.

        faa
      • Joshua L. Kerievsky
        ... The agile alliance site reminded me of another shadowy cabal called Hillside, a group so exclusive they didn t even list who they were. Not my cup o tea.
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 13, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          rpg wrote:
          >>> ... there is an air of exclusivity in the whole site...
          >>> ... I didn't see an invitation of any sort ...

          The agile alliance site reminded me of another shadowy cabal called Hillside, a
          group so exclusive they didn't even list who they were. Not my cup 'o tea.
          Hopefully they will invite others in and truly erase the exclusive nature of
          the site, which would mean not even listing who were those really important
          "dudes" that attended the first critical agile meeting (which so nauseatingly
          resembles the story of the proud few who were on a Hillside one golden
          afternoon). --jk
        • Richard P. Gabriel
          ... This is certainly a problem, assuming you think Hillside is still relevant. I didn t attend that golden afternoon event, and have been pushing for more
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 13, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            At 0:36 -0700 6/13/01, Joshua L. Kerievsky wrote:
            >rpg wrote:
            >>>> ... there is an air of exclusivity in the whole site...
            >>>> ... I didn't see an invitation of any sort ...
            >
            >The agile alliance site reminded me of another shadowy cabal called
            >Hillside, a
            >group so exclusive they didn't even list who they were. Not my cup 'o tea.
            >Hopefully they will invite others in and truly erase the exclusive nature of
            >the site, which would mean not even listing who were those really important
            >"dudes" that attended the first critical agile meeting (which so nauseatingly
            >resembles the story of the proud few who were on a Hillside one golden
            >afternoon). --jk

            This is certainly a problem, assuming you think Hillside is still
            relevant. I didn't attend that golden afternoon event, and have been
            pushing for more openness. Keep in mind that Hillside was originally
            just Kent Beck's friends, and the group operated by consensus, and to
            become open meant everyone agreeing, and one of the members did not
            want to do that, hence the legacy.

            Three people were added to Hillside in the last 9 months, and perhaps
            we're debating how and whether to exist - but the energy level is so
            low it's hard to tell.

            Hillside did just hire a web guy to make a real site, so maybe that
            aspect will change soon, if it matters.

            Hillside is really now just a benevolent bank account that funds PLoPs.

            -rpg-
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.