Re: [feyerabend-project] Re: Fear and loathing in Sardinia
- In a world where developers, users, and funders (customers) are distinct
groups, I believe agile methods are, on average, ...
- definitely better for developers
- quite likely better for funders
- not necessarily better or worse for users
... than conventional/torpid/other methods.
At 02:21 PM 5/31/01 , you wrote:
>--- In feyerabend-project@y..., Brian Marick <marick@t...> wrote:--
>> That last sentence is a bit much. For mass market software, lots of
>> agile techniques apply (Scrum's and XP's standup meetings, emphasis
>> growing a design, etc.).
>But that's sort of the whole point. YOU're growing the design. The
>customer still gives requirements and the developers are still the
>only ones with the hammer in their hands. Alexander had a much more
>inclusive vision of how houses should be constructed, with the
>inhabitant out there sawing holes in and plastering walls, lifting
>beams into place, etc. I am not a trained electrician, but, after
>the building is constructed, I should still be able to tap into the
>wiring to add a light somewhere. Same with software "tinkering".
>The "customer" in XP, although closer to the developer, is still
>isolated from the code and design. XP and its agile ilk certainly do
>not prescribe the user getting to a point where he can effect change
>on the code himself (nor does it lead by default to systems
>constructed so this can happen). In fact, XP, making it easier for
>the customer to get from the "trained professionals" what he/she
>wants, may actually lead to a regression in the balance of "code
>power" between the professional developer and user.
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Brian Marick, marick@...
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- --- In feyerabend-project@y..., Brian Marick <marick@t...> wrote:
> In a world where developers, users, and funders (customers) aredistinct
> groups, I believe agile methods are, on average, ...Aye - probably true. However...
> - definitely better for developers
> - quite likely better for funders
> - not necessarily better or worse for users
> ... than conventional/torpid/other methods.
The Buddhists have a saying: "If you meet the Buddha along the road,
kill him." It is their way of noting that an attachment to Buddha
and his path (although useful at first) is still an attachment and
that it will still prevent one from achieving enlightenment.
XP "turns the knobs to 10", but they're still the same knobs.
Progress will be made when we remove the producer/consumer
dichotomy. Deconstruct it yourself, Brian, and envision the world
without this barrier. Forget the knobs and smash the amp. If you
meet XP along the road, kill it.
- rpg wrote:
>>> ... there is an air of exclusivity in the whole site...The agile alliance site reminded me of another shadowy cabal called Hillside, a
>>> ... I didn't see an invitation of any sort ...
group so exclusive they didn't even list who they were. Not my cup 'o tea.
Hopefully they will invite others in and truly erase the exclusive nature of
the site, which would mean not even listing who were those really important
"dudes" that attended the first critical agile meeting (which so nauseatingly
resembles the story of the proud few who were on a Hillside one golden
- At 0:36 -0700 6/13/01, Joshua L. Kerievsky wrote:
>rpg wrote:This is certainly a problem, assuming you think Hillside is still
>>>> ... there is an air of exclusivity in the whole site...
>>>> ... I didn't see an invitation of any sort ...
>The agile alliance site reminded me of another shadowy cabal called
>group so exclusive they didn't even list who they were. Not my cup 'o tea.
>Hopefully they will invite others in and truly erase the exclusive nature of
>the site, which would mean not even listing who were those really important
>"dudes" that attended the first critical agile meeting (which so nauseatingly
>resembles the story of the proud few who were on a Hillside one golden
relevant. I didn't attend that golden afternoon event, and have been
pushing for more openness. Keep in mind that Hillside was originally
just Kent Beck's friends, and the group operated by consensus, and to
become open meant everyone agreeing, and one of the members did not
want to do that, hence the legacy.
Three people were added to Hillside in the last 9 months, and perhaps
we're debating how and whether to exist - but the energy level is so
low it's hard to tell.
Hillside did just hire a web guy to make a real site, so maybe that
aspect will change soon, if it matters.
Hillside is really now just a benevolent bank account that funds PLoPs.