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RE: [feline-heart] Re: Kassy's BP is great!

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang (Now in Jamaica!)
    one possible side effect of atenolol long term is hyperthyroidism from what i ve heard. ... From: catwoman1@iprimus.com.au [mailto:catwoman1@iprimus.com.au]
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 3, 2000
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      one possible side effect of atenolol long term is hyperthyroidism from what
      i've heard.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: catwoman1@... [mailto:catwoman1@...]
      Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 7:23 AM
      To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Kassy's BP is great!


      Dear Jonathan,
      I was looking up some old posts and trying to get some
      information on propranolol. It is not the same as atenolol as I
      thought earlier. What is diltiazem used for? And do you know of
      effects on kidneys with either or any of these drugs?
      Love, Voula and Pebbles and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.


      --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jr40@r...>
      wrote:
      > Oops ... I forgot attaachments won't make it through. Here's the
      text of
      > the summary. let me know if you'd like me to try to find the entire
      > article.
      >
      > J Vet Intern Med 1991 Sep-Oct;5(5):272-82
      >
      > Evaluation of the calcium channel-blocking agents diltiazem and
      verapamil
      > for treatment of feline hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
      >
      > Bright JM, Golden AL, Gompf RE, Walker MA, Toal RL
      >
      > University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine, Knoxville
      > 37901-1071.
      >
      > To determine the efficacy of and clinical response to several
      pharmacologic
      > agents for treatment of idiopathic hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in
      cats, 17
      > symptomatic cats were randomized to treatment with either
      propranolol,
      > diltiazem, or verapamil. Clinical, laboratory, radiographic,
      > electrocardiographic, and echocardiographic data were obtained
      before
      > treatment and after 3 and 6 months of chronic oral therapy. Too few
      of the
      > cats receiving propranolol or verapamil survived long enough to
      obtain
      > long-term data needed to make statistical comparisons between
      groups.
      > However, all 12 cats ultimately treated with diltiazem became
      asymptomatic,
      > and no adverse effects from this drug were noted in any of these
      cats.
      > Treatment with diltiazem was associated with a significant
      reduction of
      > pulmonary congestion assessed radiographically (P less than 0.01),
      and
      > improved ventricular filling based on echocardiographic
      measurements of left
      > atrial size (P less than 0.05), left ventricular internal diastolic
      > dimension (P less than 0.05), and relaxation time index (P less
      than 0.001).
      > There was also a drug-related improvement in jugular venous oxygen
      tension
      > (P less than 0.001) and blood lactate concentration (P less than
      0.01)
      > suggesting improved peripheral perfusion in the cats receiving
      diltiazem.
      > The results indicate that diltiazem provides an effective and
      apparently
      > safe treatment for the management of feline hypertrophic
      cardiomyopathy.
      >
      > Publication Types:
      >
      > Clinical trial
      > Randomized controlled trial
      > PMID: 1836234, UI: 92085254
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jr40@r...]
      > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 4:18 PM
      > > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      > > Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Kassy's BP is great!
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Miguel &Linda Irrgang [mailto:irrgang@r...]
      > > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:21 AM
      > > > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      > > > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Kassy's BP is great!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > My cat Pumpkin has been taking Norvasc for about 4 yrs. about
      1.5
      > > > yrs ago he started drinking what I think is an excessvie amt of
      water.
      > > > He has HCM and all is complicated bec about 2 yrs ago my
      husband was
      > > > transferred to Chile and it's all a different ball game down
      here. Now
      > > > he's having some pulmonary edema and pleural effusion. Have you
      heard of
      > > > diltiazem? Other follks are using it and I don't know the
      difference
      > > > betw the two drugs. I have read about very favorable results
      with it.
      > > > Pum's BP is controlled with Norvasc/amlodipine but I don't know
      > > > what the long term side-effects could be. I'm just sharing my
      > > > current experience with you. Any info you have to share with me
      is
      > > > greatly appreciated.
      > >
      > > I'm not an expert on this, but I happen to have a reference to a
      journal
      > > article about diltiazem, which I've attached to this message.
      > >
      > > Let me know if you have trouble reding the attachment, or if you
      > > would like
      > > me to try to find the full text of the article.
      > >
      > > --
      > > JR
      > > & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------
      --------------------------
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      > > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer
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      > > Install today:
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      > > ----------------------------------------------
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      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >



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    • Penny Branham
      To All who looked for the poem - I don t think this site allows attachments. It was in my sent message, but not the one I received. Anyone know? Penny &
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 28 10:02 AM
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        To All who looked for the poem - I don't think this site allows attachments. It was in my sent message, but not the one I received. Anyone know?

        Penny & Angel Snowball


        ---------------------------------
        Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

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      • moonpye
        Hi Penny, Can you copy/paste the link to the page that the poem is on? or copy/paste the poem? As far as I know attachments are *not* allowed on most yahoo
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 28 1:46 PM
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          Hi Penny,

          Can you copy/paste the link to the page that the poem is on? or copy/paste
          the poem? As far as I know attachments are *not* allowed on most yahoo
          groups.

          Hugs,
          Candace


          On 6/28/07, Penny Branham <pennybranham@...> wrote:
          >
          > To All who looked for the poem - I don't think this site allows
          > attachments. It was in my sent message, but not the one I received. Anyone
          > know?
          >
          > Penny & Angel Snowball
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • S Hilton
          For those of you tracking chest taps, Abu had his 6th one today (since March 12th). They are now about 2 weeks apart, and we routinely remove 210-230cc of
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 28 2:37 PM
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            For those of you tracking chest taps, Abu had his 6th one today (since March 12th). They are now about 2 weeks apart, and we routinely remove 210-230cc of fluid. (we removed 230cc of milky fluid today, and he weighed 1/2 lb less afterwards).

            We are lucky --- each time Abu stoically sits unrestrained (we do steady him and I usually rub his face and talk to him), the doctor and tech slowly extracts the fluid, and it's over. Takes about 10 minutes. Afterwards, Abu sat on the table for a minute or two --- looked like he was thinking or getting use to the feel of the fluid being gone, and then he walked over to me and stood up and put his arms on my shoulders to be picked up.

            I'm not crazy about the procedure but it certainly doesn't seem to bother Abu. In fact, he is very cooperative.

            Susan (and Abu)


            ---------------------------------
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            Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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          • jamander33
            Wow, it as if he knows what needs to be done and he just buckles down and does it. That is GREAT that he is so cooperative. You are incredibly fortunate. Tell
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 28 2:46 PM
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              Wow, it as if he knows what needs to be done and he just buckles
              down and does it. That is GREAT that he is so cooperative. You are
              incredibly fortunate. Tell Abu to keep up the good work! Amanda and
              Griffin

              > For those of you tracking chest taps, Abu had his 6th one today
              (since March 12th). They are now about 2 weeks apart, and we
              routinely remove 210-230cc of fluid. (we removed 230cc of milky
              fluid today, and he weighed 1/2 lb less afterwards).
              >
              > We are lucky --- each time Abu stoically sits unrestrained (we
              do steady him and I usually rub his face and talk to him), the
              doctor and tech slowly extracts the fluid, and it's over. Takes
              about 10 minutes. Afterwards, Abu sat on the table for a minute or
              two --- looked like he was thinking or getting use to the feel of
              the fluid being gone, and then he walked over to me and stood up and
              put his arms on my shoulders to be picked up.
              >
              > I'm not crazy about the procedure but it certainly doesn't seem
              to bother Abu. In fact, he is very cooperative.
              >
              > Susan (and Abu)
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Building a website is a piece of cake.
              > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • moonpye
              Hi Susan, What a sweet, good boy Abu is :) Best to you both! Hugs, Candace ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 28 3:39 PM
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                Hi Susan,

                What a sweet, good boy Abu is :)

                Best to you both!

                Hugs,
                Candace


                On 6/28/07, S Hilton <tlpwtm1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Afterwards, Abu sat on the table for a minute or two --- looked like he
                > was thinking or getting use to the feel of the fluid being gone, and then he
                > walked over to me and stood up and put his arms on my shoulders to be picked
                > up.
                >
                > I'm not crazy about the procedure but it certainly doesn't seem to bother
                > Abu. In fact, he is very cooperative.
                >
                > Susan (and Abu)
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sue at MAGDRL
                Susan, If the fluid is milky, that means it contains chyle which is a fluid from the lymphatic system. Chyle is often controlled by giving 500mg of rutin
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 29 5:35 AM
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                  Susan,

                  If the fluid is milky, that means it contains chyle which is a fluid from
                  the lymphatic system. Chyle is often controlled by giving 500mg of rutin
                  daily. The brand of rutin with the fewest fillers is GNC. It's a big pill
                  and most people grind it up & add it to food. A few people on this list
                  have had luck with it where it's eliminated the need for the chest taps.

                  It's wonderful that Abu doesn't have a problem with them and he's so
                  cooperative!


                  Sue & Angel Pepper


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "S Hilton" <tlpwtm1@...>
                  To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 5:37 PM
                  Subject: [FH] Fluid in the chest/chest taps


                  > For those of you tracking chest taps, Abu had his 6th one today (since
                  March 12th). They are now about 2 weeks apart, and we routinely remove
                  210-230cc of fluid. (we removed 230cc of milky fluid today, and he weighed
                  1/2 lb less afterwards).
                  >
                  > We are lucky --- each time Abu stoically sits unrestrained (we do steady
                  him and I usually rub his face and talk to him), the doctor and tech slowly
                  extracts the fluid, and it's over. Takes about 10 minutes. Afterwards, Abu
                  sat on the table for a minute or two --- looked like he was thinking or
                  getting use to the feel of the fluid being gone, and then he walked over to
                  me and stood up and put his arms on my shoulders to be picked up.
                  >
                  > I'm not crazy about the procedure but it certainly doesn't seem to
                  bother Abu. In fact, he is very cooperative.
                  >
                  > Susan (and Abu)
                  >
                • Janie
                  Susan is he on Rutin. I may have missed this but milky is what Blackie had and Rutin helped? Janie
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 29 5:39 AM
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                    Susan is he on Rutin. I may have missed this but milky is what Blackie
                    had and Rutin helped? Janie
                  • Janie
                    You know I have been with my cat for chest tap and another who had cancer and she had her stomach area tapped and they just held her. They didnt act in pain.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 29 5:45 AM
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                      You know I have been with my cat for chest tap and another who had
                      cancer and she had her stomach area tapped and they just held her. They
                      didnt act in pain. No medication was used. They let us go in for
                      anything I can even watch the surgery if I want. One of the new drs
                      thought I was a doctor!!!!! we still laugh about that. I just read all
                      I can and after having 12 cats and all the illness I know a few things
                      from groups like this. This is the most wonderful group and all my
                      heart kittys are gone but I cant pull away as I think someone might
                      need something or Im still keeping track of some. We have 4 cats left
                      over the yrs the most we had was 8 and a dog. One has fiv postive but
                      he is healthy. Im sorry for some today as they are in pain and Chris
                      is still with us and that was good news even went out in the garden.
                      Hope all have a good day. Janie
                    • Penny Branham
                      Janie, Your input and others - it is wonderful to have a site like this. I think it gives the heart kitties much more of a chance for quality treatment and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 29 7:21 AM
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                        Janie,

                        Your input and others - it is wonderful to have a site like this. I think it gives the heart kitties much more of a chance for quality treatment and prolonged life many times, and I can't even begin to tell you what it has done for me. I come from families that do not understand such deep love and compassion for a four legged companion. How much they miss!!! It has been a positive affirmation for me as an individual as well as making the world a better place for my kitties and others. So, pass it on!!!

                        Hugs and PUrrrrrs - Penny & Angel Snowball

                        Janie <sockster@...> wrote:
                        You know I have been with my cat for chest tap and another who had
                        cancer and she had her stomach area tapped and they just held her. They
                        didnt act in pain. No medication was used. They let us go in for
                        anything I can even watch the surgery if I want. One of the new drs
                        thought I was a doctor!!!!! we still laugh about that. I just read all
                        I can and after having 12 cats and all the illness I know a few things
                        from groups like this. This is the most wonderful group and all my
                        heart kittys are gone but I cant pull away as I think someone might
                        need something or Im still keeping track of some. We have 4 cats left
                        over the yrs the most we had was 8 and a dog. One has fiv postive but
                        he is healthy. Im sorry for some today as they are in pain and Chris
                        is still with us and that was good news even went out in the garden.
                        Hope all have a good day. Janie






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                      • Leah Ferron
                        Susan, I do not want to alarm you but milky fluid from the chest is not normal. Did the vet say anything when they saw this? Did they suggest any testing on
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 29 9:27 AM
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                          Susan,

                          I do not want to alarm you but milky fluid from the chest is not normal. Did the vet say anything when they saw this? Did they suggest any testing on the fluid. The milky fluid has a good chance of being Chyle. My Alec had chylous pleural effusion. I would talk to your vet about having the fluid tested for chyly. If it is chyle or they can tell you by relative certainity that it is chyle without testing, you need to treat Abu with rutin as Sue already said. I agree with the GNC brand at 500mg per day. They are big pills but they break and crush easily. They do have a smell but no taste as I remember. If Abu is not already on spiro, you may want to ask about adding that to his regimen too.

                          Again, not to scare you but chylous pleural effusion is not to be taken lightly, you need to know this. It needs to be treated. It is a condition that can come about from heart disease or others things like cancer or spontaneously. If you do a google search on chylous pleaural effusion you will get some info that should be read. It can be life-threatening and not always treatable. Our group has had pretty good success with rutin though.

                          Leah and her cats and Angel Alec




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                        • Leah Ferron
                          This was meant for the group too. S Hilton wrote: After reading the following email from Leah, and some earlier postings, we decided to do
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 16, 2007
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                            This was meant for the group too.

                            S Hilton <tlpwtm1@...> wrote:
                            After reading the following email from Leah, and some earlier postings, we decided to do a chest tap from Abu's left side AND right side. As usual he was very patient, and sat there calmly while we poked and prodded. He doesn't even flinch when the needle goes in. Again, we got very little from the usual side -- 50cc. But, we pulled 150cc from the other side. I am guessing that the permeable membrane between both sides of the chest isn't so permeable anymore --- from the chyle scarring, perhaps?

                            Anyway, I'm hoping that the Rutin is slowing the fluid buildup, which might explain why we are getting less from the one side. We'll know more in the next couple of weeks.

                            Regardless, Abu is climbing and jumping on everything --- tables, counters, cat trees --- as if he's started another of his "lives". He's obviously feeling quite good and is very happy with life at the moment.

                            Thanks, Leah, for the Rutin recommendation.

                            Susan (and Abu)


                            Leah Ferron <leahandhercats@...> wrote:
                            Susan,

                            Anything is possible but I would not think the Rutin is working that quickly. What kinds of problems did you run into today? Is it that they couldn't get fluid? Or wouldn't Abu let them? If they had trouble getting the fluid, did they try both sides of the chest? If so, and you couldn't get to the fluid then the chyle may already be causing pockets from the webbing it creates with scar tissue. The fluid that they got out is probably still chyle just with more blood in it. What did the vet say when they did the tap? Keep giving the rutin and the duiretics no matter what. No matter how much fluid you got out of Abu, it is helpful.

                            Leah and Angel Alec

                            S Hilton <tlpwtm1@...> wrote:
                            Abu had tap last Thursday, and we drew off about 230cc. He started 250mg Rutin (2xday) several days ago. He was exhibiting the labored breathing again and the chest xray this a.m. showed about the same fluid levels as last week before that draw. The tap today did not go well, and we didn't get much fluid out.

                            My question: the fluid in the past was very milky white, or slightly tinged with blood. Today is was very bloody and watery. Could the Rutin have blocked the Chyle buildup so quickly? And, if so, just what is that fluid?

                            Susan

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