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Re: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula

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  • Voula Augerinos
    Dear Anyes, thank you. Yes I remember reading this on the CRF group. I think propranolol is a beta blocker. Is this different to a calcium channel blocker? I
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 19, 2000
      Dear Anyes,
      thank you. Yes I remember reading this on the CRF group. I think
      propranolol is a beta blocker. Is this different to a calcium channel
      blocker? I will look that up in any case. I am not giving Pebbles any
      cypro. Cypro is an anti-histamine isn't it? Actually I just remembered the
      information I looked up warned against these drugs with propranolol too. In
      any case, Pebbles certainly doesn't need an appetite stimulant! (smile!)
      Thank goodness.
      Love, Voula and Pebbles and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

      ----------
      > From: Anyes Moscrip <anyes@...>
      > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
      > Date: Friday, 20 October , 2000 1:25 AM
      >
      > I forgot to add a reminder that Diltiazem, Norvasc, and all calcium
      channel
      > blockers should never be given with Cyproheptadine. I know many kitties
      get
      > Cypro for appetite. This combination is potentially life threatening,
      and
      > unfortunately I learned that the hard way.
      > There is a reference to this in Don Plumb's book on medicines, but most
      vets
      > are not aware of it. Our IM specialist was as she works at the ER clinic
      and
      > gets to see the results of this combo at the ER.
      >
      > Anyes, angel Lucie, Georgina and Angelica
    • Jonathan Rosenberg
      ... This is the same drug as enacard, which is what Lynx takes. ... I asked our vet about this a few weeks agio. She said that when enalapril was first
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 19, 2000
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Melinda Bruno [mailto:brunobaby@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:54 AM
        > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
        > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula

        > The cardiologist recommended enalapril (Vasotec), which is an ACE
        > Inhibitor.

        This is the same drug as enacard, which is what Lynx takes.

        > If you've heard that this drug is not recommended for kidney
        > patients, it's because it "cuts" the communication between
        > the heart and the kidneys. Meaning that the kidneys yell "more
        > blood!" and the heart doesn't hear them. This means less work
        > for the heart, which is good for a heart patient, but could be
        > bad for the kidneys.

        I asked our vet about this a few weeks agio. She said that when enalapril
        was first introduced, this was everyone's fear. But she said that the
        latest research had shown that the drug actually appears to be less
        troublesome for the kidneys than ohter treatments.

        Just another data point ...

        > --Melinda and Pongo

        --
        JR
        & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx
      • Jeanne Warner
        Hi! I too have a cat, Dom, who is 5 years old and was diagnosed with HCM almost 1 year ago. He takes Diltiazem and Enalarpril. We did try baby aspirin for him
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 19, 2000
          Hi!
          I too have a cat, Dom, who is 5 years old and was diagnosed with HCM
          almost 1 year ago. He takes Diltiazem and Enalarpril. We did try baby
          aspirin for him but had to discontinue it because it caused him to
          throw up most every day. He has had 2 ultrasounds so far and the
          second 1 showed that there has been no farther deterioration and his
          heart rate was lower. The Enlarpril was added after the second
          ultrasound and we will return for the next ultrasound in January. I
          will be anxious to see if there have been any changes. We do see our
          regular vet in between the cardiologist check ups. She did a chem
          profile to check for renal function and it was fine. So, all has been
          going very well for Dom since his diagnosis. We have noticed that he
          became alot more active after being on the meds. He stated running
          and jumping again. Cardiologist says it is because he feels better.

          We all live with the fear of blood clots, kidney problems etc. but it
          does become less stressful as the time goes by. At first, I just
          watched him waiting for something bad to happen but now we know that
          we are doing everything we can for him and that is all that we can
          do. Of course this is easier to say when he has been doing so well.
          It does help if you have a good vet that you trust and a good
          cardiologist. Dom and I are lucky to have both!

          Good luck to you and Pebbles,
          Jeanne & Dom











          --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jr40@r...>
          wrote:
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Melinda Bruno [mailto:brunobaby@a...]
          > > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:54 AM
          > > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
          > > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
          >
          > > The cardiologist recommended enalapril (Vasotec), which is an ACE
          > > Inhibitor.
          >
          > This is the same drug as enacard, which is what Lynx takes.
          >
          > > If you've heard that this drug is not recommended for kidney
          > > patients, it's because it "cuts" the communication between
          > > the heart and the kidneys. Meaning that the kidneys yell "more
          > > blood!" and the heart doesn't hear them. This means less work
          > > for the heart, which is good for a heart patient, but could be
          > > bad for the kidneys.
          >
          > I asked our vet about this a few weeks agio. She said that when
          enalapril
          > was first introduced, this was everyone's fear. But she said that
          the
          > latest research had shown that the drug actually appears to be less
          > troublesome for the kidneys than ohter treatments.
          >
          > Just another data point ...
          >
          > > --Melinda and Pongo
          >
          > --
          > JR
          > & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx
        • Voula Augerinos
          Hi there Jeanne, another positive and hopeful message. Thank you. And thank you for saying that the anxiety eases. Yes I have noticed Pebbles has been a bit
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 19, 2000
            Hi there Jeanne,
            another positive and hopeful message. Thank you. And thank you for
            saying that the anxiety eases. Yes I have noticed Pebbles has been a bit
            less active lately. I also thought that because over the past few months
            before Sachie died, that it was because Sachie was sick, because she used
            to get Pebbles to play with her. I think that is true, because before
            Pebbles would tear around a million miles an hour chasing Sachie. But I
            also think that her heart could be a factor too. Well everyone, I am soon
            to give Pebbles her first tablet (one quarter of a propranolol). Wish us
            well. I think Pebbles will be okay, but I am going to need something
            myself!
            Love, Voula and Pebbles and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

            ----------
            > From: Jeanne Warner <jwarner310@...>
            > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
            > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
            > Date: Friday, 20 October , 2000 12:28 PM
            >
            > Hi!
            > I too have a cat, Dom, who is 5 years old and was diagnosed with HCM
            > almost 1 year ago. He takes Diltiazem and Enalarpril. We did try baby
            > aspirin for him but had to discontinue it because it caused him to
            > throw up most every day. He has had 2 ultrasounds so far and the
            > second 1 showed that there has been no farther deterioration and his
            > heart rate was lower. The Enlarpril was added after the second
            > ultrasound and we will return for the next ultrasound in January. I
            > will be anxious to see if there have been any changes. We do see our
            > regular vet in between the cardiologist check ups. She did a chem
            > profile to check for renal function and it was fine. So, all has been
            > going very well for Dom since his diagnosis. We have noticed that he
            > became alot more active after being on the meds. He stated running
            > and jumping again. Cardiologist says it is because he feels better.
            >
            > We all live with the fear of blood clots, kidney problems etc. but it
            > does become less stressful as the time goes by. At first, I just
            > watched him waiting for something bad to happen but now we know that
            > we are doing everything we can for him and that is all that we can
            > do. Of course this is easier to say when he has been doing so well.
            > It does help if you have a good vet that you trust and a good
            > cardiologist. Dom and I are lucky to have both!
            >
            > Good luck to you and Pebbles,
            > Jeanne & Dom
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jr40@r...>
            > wrote:
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: Melinda Bruno [mailto:brunobaby@a...]
            > > > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:54 AM
            > > > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
            > > > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
            > >
            > > > The cardiologist recommended enalapril (Vasotec), which is an ACE
            > > > Inhibitor.
            > >
            > > This is the same drug as enacard, which is what Lynx takes.
            > >
            > > > If you've heard that this drug is not recommended for kidney
            > > > patients, it's because it "cuts" the communication between
            > > > the heart and the kidneys. Meaning that the kidneys yell "more
            > > > blood!" and the heart doesn't hear them. This means less work
            > > > for the heart, which is good for a heart patient, but could be
            > > > bad for the kidneys.
            > >
            > > I asked our vet about this a few weeks agio. She said that when
            > enalapril
            > > was first introduced, this was everyone's fear. But she said that
            > the
            > > latest research had shown that the drug actually appears to be less
            > > troublesome for the kidneys than ohter treatments.
            > >
            > > Just another data point ...
            > >
            > > > --Melinda and Pongo
            > >
            > > --
            > > JR
            > > & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            >
          • Voula Augerinos
            Hi Anyes and everyone, ... Diltiazem ... HCM. ... immediately ... run, jump, ... Hi Anyes, I was wondering how long it took for Lucie s general energy to
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 31, 2000
              Hi Anyes and everyone,

              Anyes wrote :

              > This may depend on the individual cat. We had very good results with
              Diltiazem
              > both in reducing BP (was 220/230 before starting it) and controlling the
              HCM.
              > It also did not seem to hurt the kidneys as the kidneys levels
              immediately
              > improved and general health improved dramatically. Lucie was able to
              run, jump,
              > go up and down the stairs again which she had not done in months, and her
              > kidneys got improved blood circulation in the process.

              Hi Anyes, I was wondering how long it took for Lucie's general energy
              to improve after starting Diltiazem? Pebbles is howling less and is more
              settled since starting propranolol but she is not running around or being
              very active.
              We have a vet appointment on Thursday and I will ask about Diltiazem
              and other suggestions made, but I think that the general vet may not have
              as much knowledge as the specialist who prescribed the propranolol.
              We are going to have a blood test done to check Pebbles' kidney
              function after two weeks on the propranolol.
              If anyone has any more suggestions for questions to ask the vet I
              would appreciate it.
              Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
            • Anyes Moscrip
              ... We saw an improvement within 24hrs, and even more improvement a couple days later. Her energy level increased dramatically within days and stayed that way
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 31, 2000
                Voula Augerinos wrote:

                > Hi Anyes and everyone,
                >
                > Anyes wrote :
                >
                > ... general health improved dramatically. Lucie was able to run, jump, go
                > up and down the stairs again which she had not done in months, and her
                > > kidneys got improved blood circulation in the process.
                >
                > Hi Anyes, I was wondering how long it took for Lucie's general energy to
                > improve after starting Diltiazem? Pebbles is howling less and is more
                > settled since starting propranolol but she is not running around or being
                > very active.

                We saw an improvement within 24hrs, and even more improvement a couple days
                later. Her energy level increased dramatically within days and stayed that way
                for months. Her bp went back up after a few months, as her kidneys
                deteriorated more. She was diagnosed with advanced/end stage crf so her time
                was limited of course, but what a difference in her quality of life!

                Anyes, angel Lucie, Georgina and Angelica
              • Laura Penny
                Kassy s energy level also increased quickly and dramatically after she began diltiazem. Miraculously, she has had no progression of HCM in nearly 3 years, even
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 31, 2000
                  Kassy's energy level also increased quickly and dramatically after she began
                  diltiazem. Miraculously, she has had no progression of HCM in nearly 3
                  years, even after being dx with hyperT.

                  Laura
                • Voula Augerinos
                  Hi Anyes, thank you for your reply. I am so happy that Angel Lucie was helped to have a better quality of life. That is so important. What beautiful names you
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 31, 2000
                    Hi Anyes,
                    thank you for your reply. I am so happy that Angel Lucie was helped to
                    have a better quality of life. That is so important.
                    What beautiful names you give your cats!
                    Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.


                    > We saw an improvement within 24hrs, and even more improvement a couple
                    days
                    > later. Her energy level increased dramatically within days and stayed
                    that way
                    > for months. Her bp went back up after a few months, as her kidneys
                    > deteriorated more. She was diagnosed with advanced/end stage crf so her
                    time
                    > was limited of course, but what a difference in her quality of life!
                    >
                    > Anyes, angel Lucie, Georgina and Angelica
                  • Voula Augerinos
                    Hi Laura, I will ask the vet tomorrow about Diltiazem and what the differences are and why beta blockers are prescribed for some cats and Diltiazem for others.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 31, 2000
                      Hi Laura,
                      I will ask the vet tomorrow about Diltiazem and what the differences
                      are and why beta blockers are prescribed for some cats and Diltiazem for
                      others. I have heard some positive stories about Diltiazem.
                      Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

                      ----------
                      > From: Laura Penny <lepenny@...>
                      > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Diltiazem--Voula
                      > Date: Wednesday, 01 November , 2000 11:56
                      >
                      >
                      > Kassy's energy level also increased quickly and dramatically after she
                      began
                      > diltiazem. Miraculously, she has had no progression of HCM in nearly 3
                      > years, even after being dx with hyperT.
                      >
                      > Laura
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                      >
                      >
                    • joe.weissmann@uc.edu
                      My Tigger initially was put on Propanolol after a severe case of CHF (conjestive heart failure) when he was 18 months old. Propanolol wiped him out...lethargic
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 1, 2000
                        My Tigger initially was put on Propanolol after a severe case of CHF
                        (conjestive heart failure) when he was 18 months old. Propanolol wiped
                        him out...lethargic wouldn't move...trouble breathing, etc. Found out
                        this drug is a non-selective beta blocker and can cause adverse
                        reactions including difficulty in breathing but it is the most
                        powerful beta blocker at a vet's disposal. After a week we then
                        switched him to Atenolol, a selective beta blocker, and he improved
                        dramatically. Tigger was almost back to himself with just a little
                        less stamina then before.
                        Tigger was taking a combination of Atenolol, Vasotec, and the baby
                        aspirin and was doing fine when on his semi-annual exam the vet
                        discovered moderate arrythmia and doubled his dosage of Vasotec &
                        Atenolol. He was tolerating this increased dosage pretty well for
                        about a month when one night his heart threw a clot that paralyzed his
                        rear legs. Fortunately it was only a partial blockage and within a
                        week he was back on his feet and could walk around. I think it may
                        have only been a partial blockage due to the baby aspirin he's been
                        taking.
                        To make a long story short(er), after consulting w/ several people
                        on the web and doing a lot of research, I convinced the vet to take
                        him off the Atenolol and put him on Diltiazem instead. She
                        begrudgingly did so, but only for a week and if that didn't work he
                        was going back on Atenolol/Propanolol or I would have to find a new
                        specialist. After a week he some seemed no worse than before but he
                        still had the arrhythmia. We decided to keep him on the Diltiazem and
                        he's been doing great for the last 6 months.
                        My feelings are that if your cat has not been in CHF then the beta
                        blockers (Propanolol/Atenolol) can keep HCM in check but if your cat
                        has had CHF episode, then a calcium channel blocker(Diltiazem) is the
                        better choice. Diltiazem also has some anti-clotting properties which
                        is good thing, while the beta blockers can restrict blood vessels
                        which is a bad thing if clot is thrown. I will have to say that beta
                        blockers (Propanolol and to a lesser extent Atenolol) are much better
                        at treating arrhythmia which is a major cause of clot formation.

                        - Joe Weissmann
                      • Voula Augerinos
                        Hi Joe, thank you for your message. I think I read somewhere that beta blockers should be used with caution in CHF (congestive heart failure). I will look at
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 1, 2000
                          Hi Joe,
                          thank you for your message. I think I read somewhere that beta
                          blockers should be used with caution in CHF (congestive heart failure). I
                          will look at the site and write again. I think it said that they can worsen
                          heart failure.

                          > My feelings are that if your cat has not been in CHF then the beta
                          > blockers (Propanolol/Atenolol) can keep HCM in check but if your cat
                          > has had CHF episode, then a calcium channel blocker(Diltiazem) is the
                          > better choice.

                          Pebbles has not been in CHF.

                          > Diltiazem also has some anti-clotting properties which
                          > is good thing, while the beta blockers can restrict blood vessels
                          > which is a bad thing if clot is thrown.

                          That is interesting. I will look into this and ask the vet.

                          > I will have to say that beta
                          > blockers (Propanolol and to a lesser extent Atenolol) are much better
                          > at treating arrhythmia which is a major cause of clot formation.

                          For Pebbles the specialist said he wanted to lower her heart rate and
                          hopefully that would help the heart.
                          I am still learning about heart disease in cats. I don't know very
                          much so I am sorry if I can't explain myself too well.

                          Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang (Now in Jamaica!)
                          Voula, I ll be praying for you and Pebbles in my thoughts and prayers. Pumpkin, Max and Linda ... From: Voula Augerinos [mailto:catwoman1@iprimus.com.au] Sent:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 3, 2000
                            Voula,
                            I'll be praying for you and Pebbles in my thoughts and prayers.

                            Pumpkin, Max and Linda
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Voula Augerinos [mailto:catwoman1@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:38 PM
                            To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula


                            Hi there Jeanne,
                            another positive and hopeful message. Thank you. And thank you for
                            saying that the anxiety eases. Yes I have noticed Pebbles has been a bit
                            less active lately. I also thought that because over the past few months
                            before Sachie died, that it was because Sachie was sick, because she used
                            to get Pebbles to play with her. I think that is true, because before
                            Pebbles would tear around a million miles an hour chasing Sachie. But I
                            also think that her heart could be a factor too. Well everyone, I am soon
                            to give Pebbles her first tablet (one quarter of a propranolol). Wish us
                            well. I think Pebbles will be okay, but I am going to need something
                            myself!
                            Love, Voula and Pebbles and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

                            ----------
                            > From: Jeanne Warner <jwarner310@...>
                            > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                            > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
                            > Date: Friday, 20 October , 2000 12:28 PM
                            >
                            > Hi!
                            > I too have a cat, Dom, who is 5 years old and was diagnosed with HCM
                            > almost 1 year ago. He takes Diltiazem and Enalarpril. We did try baby
                            > aspirin for him but had to discontinue it because it caused him to
                            > throw up most every day. He has had 2 ultrasounds so far and the
                            > second 1 showed that there has been no farther deterioration and his
                            > heart rate was lower. The Enlarpril was added after the second
                            > ultrasound and we will return for the next ultrasound in January. I
                            > will be anxious to see if there have been any changes. We do see our
                            > regular vet in between the cardiologist check ups. She did a chem
                            > profile to check for renal function and it was fine. So, all has been
                            > going very well for Dom since his diagnosis. We have noticed that he
                            > became alot more active after being on the meds. He stated running
                            > and jumping again. Cardiologist says it is because he feels better.
                            >
                            > We all live with the fear of blood clots, kidney problems etc. but it
                            > does become less stressful as the time goes by. At first, I just
                            > watched him waiting for something bad to happen but now we know that
                            > we are doing everything we can for him and that is all that we can
                            > do. Of course this is easier to say when he has been doing so well.
                            > It does help if you have a good vet that you trust and a good
                            > cardiologist. Dom and I are lucky to have both!
                            >
                            > Good luck to you and Pebbles,
                            > Jeanne & Dom
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jr40@r...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: Melinda Bruno [mailto:brunobaby@a...]
                            > > > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:54 AM
                            > > > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                            > > > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Diltiazem--Voula
                            > >
                            > > > The cardiologist recommended enalapril (Vasotec), which is an ACE
                            > > > Inhibitor.
                            > >
                            > > This is the same drug as enacard, which is what Lynx takes.
                            > >
                            > > > If you've heard that this drug is not recommended for kidney
                            > > > patients, it's because it "cuts" the communication between
                            > > > the heart and the kidneys. Meaning that the kidneys yell "more
                            > > > blood!" and the heart doesn't hear them. This means less work
                            > > > for the heart, which is good for a heart patient, but could be
                            > > > bad for the kidneys.
                            > >
                            > > I asked our vet about this a few weeks agio. She said that when
                            > enalapril
                            > > was first introduced, this was everyone's fear. But she said that
                            > the
                            > > latest research had shown that the drug actually appears to be less
                            > > troublesome for the kidneys than ohter treatments.
                            > >
                            > > Just another data point ...
                            > >
                            > > > --Melinda and Pongo
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > JR
                            > > & Tabby (RB), Licorice, Tigger, Lynx
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                            >
                            >


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