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  • kyleb239
    I have been reading the posts here for a few days now and decided to post. Everyone here seems to be very helpful with information and support. My litte man
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1 10:28 AM
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      I have been reading the posts here for a few days now and decided to
      post. Everyone here seems to be very helpful with information and
      support. My litte man "Bailey" was diagnosed with HCM 2 weeks ago.
      He started out having trouble breathing so I took him to the vet.
      After xrays, the doc told me what he suspected. HCM was confirmed
      after an ultrasound. Just to introduce him, he is a brown tabby
      (probably has Maine Coon in him). He is 8 yrs and weighs 13.5 lbs
      (use to weight 17). He is a sweety and I've had him since he was 8
      wks old.

      He has been on lasix and heart meds for 2 weeks now. He seems to be
      breathing fine and feels better although not quite himself. Its hard
      though because he hates getting medicine. I can't even begin to pill
      him so his heart med is compounded into liquid form which he also
      hates but its the only way I can get it into him. He is getting
      quite hostile however and I hate that he is afraid everytime I go
      near him. The vet gave me some samples of flavored soft discs that
      medication can be put into, so maybe I will try that next. He seems
      to know when I try to put the meds in treats or can food and turns
      his nose up. I can't leave them out either because my other kitty
      might eat it. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
      to what to try would be greatly appreciated.

      Thanks!
      Karen
    • Lynnie Henderson
      Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure out how to use it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she has a chance to do
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1 12:34 PM
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        Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure out how to use
        it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she has a chance
        to do more than start to lift her paw. I do it right before I feed her so
        she promptly forgets that I've just been quite rude to her! She scratched me
        to bits before I learned to use the piller.


        > Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
        > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
      • Karen LeBlanc
        Yes I have a piller. He freaks out and I can never get the pill far enough back to go down. I have had great success pilling my other cat with it but for
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 1 1:04 PM
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          Yes I have a piller. He freaks out and I can never get the pill far enough
          back to go down. I have had great success pilling my other cat with it but
          for some reason its easier to use the liquid on Bailey. I may give it
          another try. I just wish I could find a way for him to get the meds without
          him going through a traumatic experience...especially twice a day....for the
          rest of his life. I may give the flavored medicine casing a try or maybe a
          different tasting liquid to mix it in. I've read on a web site that some
          pharmacies offer different flavors to compound the meds in. Its just a
          matter of finding one near me that will do that.

          Thanks for the response.
          Karen


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Lynnie Henderson [mailto:lynnie_henderson@...]
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:35 PM
          To: Feline heart
          Subject: Re: [FH] Hello to All


          Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure out how to
          use
          it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she has a chance
          to do more than start to lift her paw. I do it right before I feed her so
          she promptly forgets that I've just been quite rude to her! She scratched
          me
          to bits before I learned to use the piller.


          > Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
          > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sallymerlin
          Hi Karen, I too have a cat who is nearly impossible to pill, using the traditional methods anyway. I was able to take another route...really good food treats!
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 1 2:21 PM
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            Hi Karen,

            I too have a cat who is nearly impossible to pill, using the
            traditional methods anyway. I was able to take another route...really
            good food treats!

            I have to give my Muffin 9 pills/caps per day (meds
            and suppliments)...fotunately he's gotten used to all of them in his
            food. But his food is all very special, homemade meals: raw organic
            beef or cooked pork, chicken or fish. I mix in a small amount of
            veggies, but mostly it's very high protien. He eats small meals
            (only 1-3 tablespoons per "meal") but the meds are in there. I squash
            up the pills first then add the food and mix well. It took a few days
            to work up to full doses to be acceptable, but now it's just how the
            food tastes as far as he is concerned.

            But sometimes even these tasty options are not enough to
            tempt....so I bring out my secret weapon....Ben and Jerry's!!! I only
            give him about 1 rounded TEAspoonful with the meds mixed in...but he
            always thinks it's an extra special moment....vanilla is the flavour
            of choice! Yoghurt works well too!

            BTW, Muffin has CRF, CHF and Hyper-T.....it IS a roller
            coaster/balancing act to be sure but good food gives him something to
            look forward to and it also keeps us both happy. Sure, it's a little
            more work for me, but I'd rather cook his meat/meals than nurse my
            shredded hands and work at rebuilding trust!!

            Good luck!!!

            Sally and Muffin


            --- In feline-heart@y..., Karen LeBlanc <kleblanc@j...> wrote:
            > Yes I have a piller. He freaks out and I can never get the pill far
            enough
            > back to go down. I have had great success pilling my other cat with
            it but
            > for some reason its easier to use the liquid on Bailey. I may give
            it
            > another try. I just wish I could find a way for him to get the meds
            without
            > him going through a traumatic experience...especially twice a
            day....for the
            > rest of his life. I may give the flavored medicine casing a try or
            maybe a
            > different tasting liquid to mix it in. I've read on a web site that
            some
            > pharmacies offer different flavors to compound the meds in. Its
            just a
            > matter of finding one near me that will do that.
            >
            > Thanks for the response.
            > Karen
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Lynnie Henderson [mailto:lynnie_henderson@m...]
            > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:35 PM
            > To: Feline heart
            > Subject: Re: [FH] Hello to All
            >
            >
            > Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure out
            how to
            > use
            > it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she has
            a chance
            > to do more than start to lift her paw. I do it right before I feed
            her so
            > she promptly forgets that I've just been quite rude to her! She
            scratched
            > me
            > to bits before I learned to use the piller.
            >
            >
            > > Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
            > > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > feline-heart-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cookielu1999
            Sally, Muffin is one lucky little pusscat! Ben & Jerry s - Muffin is riding 1st class! Karen, When I first started giving multiple pills 4x s day to my kitty
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 1 4:57 PM
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              Sally,
              Muffin is one lucky little pusscat! Ben & Jerry's - Muffin is riding
              1st class!

              Karen,
              When I first started giving multiple pills 4x's day to my kitty she
              resisted frantically. I used meat baby food, but she quickly got
              wise.
              I settled on a pill gun - the one with the white handle and the blue
              rubber tip. It's nice and soft and you can carefully stack a lot of
              pills in it and only pop it in kitty's mouth once. Since it is soft
              you can place it far enough into the back of kitty's throat so that
              the pills can't be spit out. My kitty used to twist her head side
              to side, but eventually with lots of love and positive reinforcement,
              AND persistance she would allow me to quickly pill her w/ the pill
              gun.
              Honestly, I think she finally realized that it was just easier to let
              me give her the pills and get it over with. Orange was a very
              finicky eater from kittenhood and human grade food was
              slop as far as she was concerned. My oldest cat, Maxwell, gets a
              collection of pills and she is great about licking the pill laced
              baby food off my finger - thank you Zellene for helping us with that
              method! Maxwell is a little chow chow kitty and would readily eat
              anything but she is on a restricted diet for IBD.

              One of my worries with compounded liquids is that an unmeasurable
              amount of medication could be slobbered out of the mouth. Ask your
              vet about the flavored liquids, my vet has them in her office!

              When using a compounding pharmacy always aske them how they operate
              as quality assurance is an issue. I specify that the same pharmacist
              make Maxwell's caps each time

              Did anyone mention crushing the pills and filling a gelatin capsule?
              Sorry if I am repeating. A compounding pharmacy could do this for you
              too. Maxwell gets her blood pressure meds in a capsule; I have to
              pill the capsule and I wet it before slipping it down her throat w/
              the pill gun. I have had capsules stick and break in my throat and
              don't want that to happen to her - getting it wet makes it slippery.
              I follow the capsule with more baby food!

              Good luck w/ whatever method you devise. Be sure to use positive
              reinforcement all the time...be creative to keep making post pill a
              happy occasion!
              Maria

              --- In feline-heart@y..., "sallymerlin" <sallymerlin@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Karen,
              >
              > I too have a cat who is nearly impossible to pill, using the
              > traditional methods anyway. I was able to take another
              route...really
              > good food treats!
              >
              > I have to give my Muffin 9 pills/caps per day (meds
              > and suppliments)...fotunately he's gotten used to all of them in
              his
              > food. But his food is all very special, homemade meals: raw organic
              > beef or cooked pork, chicken or fish. I mix in a small amount of
              > veggies, but mostly it's very high protien. He eats small meals
              > (only 1-3 tablespoons per "meal") but the meds are in there. I
              squash
              > up the pills first then add the food and mix well. It took a few
              days
              > to work up to full doses to be acceptable, but now it's just how
              the
              > food tastes as far as he is concerned.
              >
              > But sometimes even these tasty options are not enough to
              > tempt....so I bring out my secret weapon....Ben and Jerry's!!! I
              only
              > give him about 1 rounded TEAspoonful with the meds mixed in...but
              he
              > always thinks it's an extra special moment....vanilla is the
              flavour
              > of choice! Yoghurt works well too!
              >
              > BTW, Muffin has CRF, CHF and Hyper-T.....it IS a roller
              > coaster/balancing act to be sure but good food gives him something
              to
              > look forward to and it also keeps us both happy. Sure, it's a
              little
              > more work for me, but I'd rather cook his meat/meals than nurse my
              > shredded hands and work at rebuilding trust!!
              >
              > Good luck!!!
              >
              > Sally and Muffin
              >
              >
              > --- In feline-heart@y..., Karen LeBlanc <kleblanc@j...> wrote:
              > > Yes I have a piller. He freaks out and I can never get the pill
              far
              > enough
              > > back to go down. I have had great success pilling my other cat
              with
              > it but
              > > for some reason its easier to use the liquid on Bailey. I may
              give
              > it
              > > another try. I just wish I could find a way for him to get the
              meds
              > without
              > > him going through a traumatic experience...especially twice a
              > day....for the
              > > rest of his life. I may give the flavored medicine casing a try
              or
              > maybe a
              > > different tasting liquid to mix it in. I've read on a web site
              that
              > some
              > > pharmacies offer different flavors to compound the meds in. Its
              > just a
              > > matter of finding one near me that will do that.
              > >
              > > Thanks for the response.
              > > Karen
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Lynnie Henderson [mailto:lynnie_henderson@m...]
              > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:35 PM
              > > To: Feline heart
              > > Subject: Re: [FH] Hello to All
              > >
              > >
              > > Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure
              out
              > how to
              > > use
              > > it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she
              has
              > a chance
              > > to do more than start to lift her paw. I do it right before I
              feed
              > her so
              > > she promptly forgets that I've just been quite rude to her! She
              > scratched
              > > me
              > > to bits before I learned to use the piller.
              > >
              > >
              > > > Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
              > > > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > ADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@y...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • gussielou49
              What heart meds. is Bailey on? We have Gus atenolol compounded into a treat/chewable form that works like a charm! His enalapril is in a liquid tuna
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 1 6:44 PM
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                What heart meds. is Bailey on? We have Gus' atenolol compounded into
                a treat/chewable form that works like a charm! His enalapril is in a
                liquid tuna suspension which he loves, too. For aspirin, we use a
                pill splitter and quarter and adult strength tablet and so it's
                small...it goes down easily---we just open his mouth and pop it in
                using our fingers. It seems to get easier each time. The pharmacist
                we use is animal-specific. She is really nice. If you want, I can
                give you her number. She mails Gus' meds. 2-day...it costs about
                $5.
                Good luck, Steph & Gus.


                --- In feline-heart@y..., "kyleb239" <kleblanc@j...> wrote:
                > I have been reading the posts here for a few days now and decided
                to
                > post. Everyone here seems to be very helpful with information and
                > support. My litte man "Bailey" was diagnosed with HCM 2 weeks
                ago.
                > He started out having trouble breathing so I took him to the vet.
                > After xrays, the doc told me what he suspected. HCM was confirmed
                > after an ultrasound. Just to introduce him, he is a brown tabby
                > (probably has Maine Coon in him). He is 8 yrs and weighs 13.5 lbs
                > (use to weight 17). He is a sweety and I've had him since he was 8
                > wks old.
                >
                > He has been on lasix and heart meds for 2 weeks now. He seems to
                be
                > breathing fine and feels better although not quite himself. Its
                hard
                > though because he hates getting medicine. I can't even begin to
                pill
                > him so his heart med is compounded into liquid form which he also
                > hates but its the only way I can get it into him. He is getting
                > quite hostile however and I hate that he is afraid everytime I go
                > near him. The vet gave me some samples of flavored soft discs that
                > medication can be put into, so maybe I will try that next. He
                seems
                > to know when I try to put the meds in treats or can food and turns
                > his nose up. I can't leave them out either because my other kitty
                > might eat it. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
                > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
                >
                > Thanks!
                > Karen
              • Karen LeBlanc
                Maria, Sorry I took so long to respond. I had plumbing problems at home yesterday and was away from the pc. Wow, 4x a day is alot! I thought 2x was alot.
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 3 7:29 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Maria,
                  Sorry I took so long to respond. I had plumbing problems at home yesterday
                  and was away from the pc.
                  Wow, 4x a day is alot! I thought 2x was alot. Anyway, thanks for the
                  suggestions. For the last couple of days, I have been successful giving
                  Bailey his heart med mixed in a little can food. I put just enough to
                  disguise the medicine. I was so excited the first time he actually ate it
                  all. I didn't put the lasix in it because I thought it might be too much
                  and kill the taste of the food. But he takes that much better than the
                  heart stuff.

                  Hopefully that will continue to work. If not, I will try a new flavor in
                  the compounded liquid or maybe the capsule idea....or maybe Ben & Jerry's.
                  :-) The baby food is a good idea too.

                  Thanks so much!
                  Karen



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: cookielu1999 [mailto:cookielu1999@...]
                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 6:58 PM
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [FH] Hello to All


                  Sally,
                  Muffin is one lucky little pusscat! Ben & Jerry's - Muffin is riding
                  1st class!

                  Karen,
                  When I first started giving multiple pills 4x's day to my kitty she
                  resisted frantically. I used meat baby food, but she quickly got
                  wise.
                  I settled on a pill gun - the one with the white handle and the blue
                  rubber tip. It's nice and soft and you can carefully stack a lot of
                  pills in it and only pop it in kitty's mouth once. Since it is soft
                  you can place it far enough into the back of kitty's throat so that
                  the pills can't be spit out. My kitty used to twist her head side
                  to side, but eventually with lots of love and positive reinforcement,
                  AND persistance she would allow me to quickly pill her w/ the pill
                  gun.
                  Honestly, I think she finally realized that it was just easier to let
                  me give her the pills and get it over with. Orange was a very
                  finicky eater from kittenhood and human grade food was
                  slop as far as she was concerned. My oldest cat, Maxwell, gets a
                  collection of pills and she is great about licking the pill laced
                  baby food off my finger - thank you Zellene for helping us with that
                  method! Maxwell is a little chow chow kitty and would readily eat
                  anything but she is on a restricted diet for IBD.

                  One of my worries with compounded liquids is that an unmeasurable
                  amount of medication could be slobbered out of the mouth. Ask your
                  vet about the flavored liquids, my vet has them in her office!

                  When using a compounding pharmacy always aske them how they operate
                  as quality assurance is an issue. I specify that the same pharmacist
                  make Maxwell's caps each time

                  Did anyone mention crushing the pills and filling a gelatin capsule?
                  Sorry if I am repeating. A compounding pharmacy could do this for you
                  too. Maxwell gets her blood pressure meds in a capsule; I have to
                  pill the capsule and I wet it before slipping it down her throat w/
                  the pill gun. I have had capsules stick and break in my throat and
                  don't want that to happen to her - getting it wet makes it slippery.
                  I follow the capsule with more baby food!

                  Good luck w/ whatever method you devise. Be sure to use positive
                  reinforcement all the time...be creative to keep making post pill a
                  happy occasion!
                  Maria

                  --- In feline-heart@y..., "sallymerlin" <sallymerlin@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Karen,
                  >
                  > I too have a cat who is nearly impossible to pill, using the
                  > traditional methods anyway. I was able to take another
                  route...really
                  > good food treats!
                  >
                  > I have to give my Muffin 9 pills/caps per day (meds
                  > and suppliments)...fotunately he's gotten used to all of them in
                  his
                  > food. But his food is all very special, homemade meals: raw organic
                  > beef or cooked pork, chicken or fish. I mix in a small amount of
                  > veggies, but mostly it's very high protien. He eats small meals
                  > (only 1-3 tablespoons per "meal") but the meds are in there. I
                  squash
                  > up the pills first then add the food and mix well. It took a few
                  days
                  > to work up to full doses to be acceptable, but now it's just how
                  the
                  > food tastes as far as he is concerned.
                  >
                  > But sometimes even these tasty options are not enough to
                  > tempt....so I bring out my secret weapon....Ben and Jerry's!!! I
                  only
                  > give him about 1 rounded TEAspoonful with the meds mixed in...but
                  he
                  > always thinks it's an extra special moment....vanilla is the
                  flavour
                  > of choice! Yoghurt works well too!
                  >
                  > BTW, Muffin has CRF, CHF and Hyper-T.....it IS a roller
                  > coaster/balancing act to be sure but good food gives him something
                  to
                  > look forward to and it also keeps us both happy. Sure, it's a
                  little
                  > more work for me, but I'd rather cook his meat/meals than nurse my
                  > shredded hands and work at rebuilding trust!!
                  >
                  > Good luck!!!
                  >
                  > Sally and Muffin
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In feline-heart@y..., Karen LeBlanc <kleblanc@j...> wrote:
                  > > Yes I have a piller. He freaks out and I can never get the pill
                  far
                  > enough
                  > > back to go down. I have had great success pilling my other cat
                  with
                  > it but
                  > > for some reason its easier to use the liquid on Bailey. I may
                  give
                  > it
                  > > another try. I just wish I could find a way for him to get the
                  meds
                  > without
                  > > him going through a traumatic experience...especially twice a
                  > day....for the
                  > > rest of his life. I may give the flavored medicine casing a try
                  or
                  > maybe a
                  > > different tasting liquid to mix it in. I've read on a web site
                  that
                  > some
                  > > pharmacies offer different flavors to compound the meds in. Its
                  > just a
                  > > matter of finding one near me that will do that.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the response.
                  > > Karen
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Lynnie Henderson [mailto:lynnie_henderson@m...]
                  > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:35 PM
                  > > To: Feline heart
                  > > Subject: Re: [FH] Hello to All
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Have you tried a piller? It took a couple of tries to figure
                  out
                  > how to
                  > > use
                  > > it, but now I get the pill down to Freckles throat before she
                  has
                  > a chance
                  > > to do more than start to lift her paw. I do it right before I
                  feed
                  > her so
                  > > she promptly forgets that I've just been quite rude to her! She
                  > scratched
                  > > me
                  > > to bits before I learned to use the piller.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
                  > > > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@y...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Karen LeBlanc
                  Steph & Gus: Bailey is on Furosemide Solution for fluid build-up and Cardizem for his heart. Also he gets a baby aspirin every 3 days. My vet gave me some
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 3 7:57 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Steph & Gus:
                    Bailey is on Furosemide Solution for fluid build-up and Cardizem for his
                    heart. Also he gets a baby aspirin every 3 days. My vet gave me some
                    samples of a treat/chewable to see what flavors he likes before putting the
                    meds in it. I may try this for the next prescription.

                    I've been crushing the aspirin and putting it in the can food juice and that
                    has been working OK so far.

                    I guess its all just trial and error until we each find the best way for our
                    individual pet. Cat personalities are all so different, thats part of what
                    I love about them.

                    Sure I'll take your pharmacists number just in case mine doesn't offer other
                    flavors to compound the meds in. Thanks!
                    K
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gussielou49 [mailto:sschoff@...]
                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:45 PM
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [FH] Re: Hello to All


                    What heart meds. is Bailey on? We have Gus' atenolol compounded into
                    a treat/chewable form that works like a charm! His enalapril is in a
                    liquid tuna suspension which he loves, too. For aspirin, we use a
                    pill splitter and quarter and adult strength tablet and so it's
                    small...it goes down easily---we just open his mouth and pop it in
                    using our fingers. It seems to get easier each time. The pharmacist
                    we use is animal-specific. She is really nice. If you want, I can
                    give you her number. She mails Gus' meds. 2-day...it costs about
                    $5.
                    Good luck, Steph & Gus.


                    --- In feline-heart@y..., "kyleb239" <kleblanc@j...> wrote:
                    > I have been reading the posts here for a few days now and decided
                    to
                    > post. Everyone here seems to be very helpful with information and
                    > support. My litte man "Bailey" was diagnosed with HCM 2 weeks
                    ago.
                    > He started out having trouble breathing so I took him to the vet.
                    > After xrays, the doc told me what he suspected. HCM was confirmed
                    > after an ultrasound. Just to introduce him, he is a brown tabby
                    > (probably has Maine Coon in him). He is 8 yrs and weighs 13.5 lbs
                    > (use to weight 17). He is a sweety and I've had him since he was 8
                    > wks old.
                    >
                    > He has been on lasix and heart meds for 2 weeks now. He seems to
                    be
                    > breathing fine and feels better although not quite himself. Its
                    hard
                    > though because he hates getting medicine. I can't even begin to
                    pill
                    > him so his heart med is compounded into liquid form which he also
                    > hates but its the only way I can get it into him. He is getting
                    > quite hostile however and I hate that he is afraid everytime I go
                    > near him. The vet gave me some samples of flavored soft discs that
                    > medication can be put into, so maybe I will try that next. He
                    seems
                    > to know when I try to put the meds in treats or can food and turns
                    > his nose up. I can't leave them out either because my other kitty
                    > might eat it. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions as
                    > to what to try would be greatly appreciated.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    > Karen


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