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RE: [FH] heart rate

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
    when pum was put on the enalapril it was explained to me sorta like this: the enalapril will relax the musscle...hopefully it will relax it enough that it
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 27, 2002
      when pum was put on the enalapril it was explained to me sorta like this:

      the enalapril will relax the musscle...hopefully it will relax it enough
      that it will 'atrophy' somewhat and thereby reducing teh thickening or
      buildup of the heart wall/muscle....at the time i had been in a kneee brace
      for about 3 years to hellp with some knee injury and the muscles had
      'rebuilt' too stronly on one side pulling the knee cap outa joint somehwat
      and thereby causing me pain....i couldl've had laproscopic surgery but
      didn't want to so this brace was the alternative....when the vet told me
      about the enalapril and the theory he'd be working on, it made me think of
      my knee problem and i told him...he said ''yes it's basiscsally the same
      theory' : atrophy the muscle in one area and build it up in the right place
      whil e holding the joint with the brace in the right place....' the
      enalapril in pum's case was the brace; relaxing the muscle enough to
      'atrophy' but not allowing any other buildup and that way the heart cavity
      can hopefully increase again as the wall muscle
      diminishes/atrophies......it's a pretty common sense approach...the problem
      is that it's not a simple process to modify the body chemistry to allow that
      to happen....more and more evidence and eresearch is showing that all these
      problems are at the root immunological issues....it was discovered
      'incidentally' that taking ciproflaxocin lowers cholesterol which got folks
      to thinking along those lines....interesting....and if you read a few days
      ago about the "worms" that you ingest to maintain a healthy colon....well,
      there's more evidence....alsos, it's been susggested that some animals
      develop hcm after administration of antibiotics...so there's more food for
      thought.....my grandson's pediatrician recently told his parents that they
      needed to let him get "dirtier" because otherwise he'd grow up with a weak
      immune system.....so there it is and we just keep trying to do the best we
      can for our little guys....good luck and keep us possted....

      linda and the boys

      -----Original Message-----
      From: gussielou49 [mailto:sschoff@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 6:09 PM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [FH] heart rate


      Thank you for your input…I really appreciate it! I'm glad Pum is
      doing well. Everything you said makes sense. I have been doing lots
      of research on this. I have a binder full of information on HCM and
      related stuff. I feel very informed but I want to make sure I am
      doing the right things. I am a little confused about the medicines,
      Enalapril & Diltiazem, because they seem to do the same thing [relax
      the blood vessels]. I'm sure they are different but I want to know
      why he needs to be on both. I know one is an ACE and the other is a
      CCB but that is a little above my head. I am concerned about side
      effects but also know his heart needs some help. It's a tough
      situation. Gus has an appointment next weekend for blood work and I
      will have many questions to ask. We live a little over an hour from
      a very reputable hospital where there are vet. cardiologists, so I am
      considering going down there for a second opinion even though our vet
      is wonderful. I hesitate to drive w/ Gus that far because he
      stresses easily in the car…his heart goes wild. We currently see a
      regular vet as well as a vet that does the ultrasounds [a mobile
      vet]. I'm not sure if she specializes in cardiology but she seems to
      know a lot about it. I need to clarify that. Thanks again…I'm glad
      I found this message board. I'll keep you posted.
      Steph & Gus


      --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
      > did you see a cardiologist? i saw an internal meds spec, a gp vet
      and a
      > cardio vet when pum was diagnosed...the cardiovet had alot of focus
      on
      > making the heart "right" but the inmed doc said that we had to
      consider the
      > whole body issue: enalapril can adversely affect kidney functions
      and like
      > in humans, blood work on kidney functions comes back looking
      ok/normal until
      > the kidneys have degenerated a significant amt and already have
      > damage....diltiazem and enalapril given together seem too much for
      my way of
      > thinking.....pum was diagnossed with high bp at about age 2 and
      took norvasc
      > for a long time just to lower the bp and we always hoped that the
      bp would
      > always be the only problem and of course that was wishful thinking
      esp on my
      > part bec it was always likely that the problem would evolve into
      hcm...the
      > cardiovet wjanted to immediately treat it as a heart problem bec he
      did have
      > a heart murmur....however, i decided to take the more conservative
      > approach...my gp vet recommended it and since he was the father of
      one of my
      > staff members i decided to trust his hunches...also he was elderly
      and had
      > alot of experience....so i went with the internal meds doc
      > recommendation...i have never regretted it.....once he evolved to
      hcm about
      > 5-6 yrs later he was put on atenolol by the internal meds vet and
      we went
      > back tot he cardiovet who added the enalapril eventaully but it did
      cause
      > kidney problems and it had to be discontinued...it's a balancing
      act....you
      > have to constantly check the blood work, the ultrasounds, trying to
      do the
      > best thing at the right time.....my internal meds vet has taken a
      very
      > conservative approach vs. the cardiovet who took more ddrastic
      action....now
      > the heart has one year later not deteriorated any further and it's
      probably
      > due to the time he took the enalapril and he's now on a special
      diet and
      > he's ok so far....but if it were me, i'd get a second opinion and
      ask alot
      > of questions to my current vet....esp knowing theat the meds will
      adversely
      > impact his kidneys eventually....il'm not too good on the numbers
      you listed
      > below but alot of other people here know alot more about the
      #s......i think
      > that i have probably upset you but i think it's better to ask these
      > questions now rather than wait to go thru what i had to experience
      with
      > pumpkin when he was on the enalapril and the atenolol.....does this
      make any
      > sense? also, i'm sure that many cats have perhaps a better
      tolerance for the
      > meds than pum did........i hope what i have said has done more to
      help than
      > confuse and cause additional worry....lord knows sthat seems to be
      what i do
      > best of all when it comes to pum.....pum was given a very short life
      > expectancy and now, alm ost 10 he continues to defy all the odds
      and be the
      > longest survivor of this website.....i attribute it to 1. allthe
      advice and
      > info i got at this website and all the great input i've had from
      everyone
      > over the years...everything i've learned...all the suppport we both
      got when
      > we both needed it so desperately and i know that time will come
      again...2.
      > the very early detection/intervention and equally conservative
      approach that
      > the internal meds vet took in treating pum....and his knowledge and
      > resources...i can't say enough good things about him and his
      operation....3.
      > lots of love....we do love pum to pieces and just dote on him
      > constantly....i hope that what i have said has helped ....
      >
      >
      > i hope that others will give input here bec i feel pretty ignorant
      about the
      > #s you listed.....other thoughts from everyone oout there????
      >
      >
      > linda
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gussielou49 [mailto:sschoff@e...]
      > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 5:24 PM
      > To: feline-heart@y...
      > Subject: Re: [FH] heart rate
      >
      >
      > Gus is 3 1/2 and since last year the vet has seen "marked
      > enlargement" of the left aorta and thickening of L ventricular wall.
      > His heart murmur is a 2+. Gus doesn't show obvious signs of HCM
      > [other than what the ultrasounds show]. He sometimes [after chasing
      > his sister] will stop, lie down and breath deeply in/out once. Why
      > do the meds. seem drastic? The vet said that this was the best
      thing
      > to do for Gus right now. I don't know a lot since this is the first
      > time w/ HCM for us. I'm just learning. I worry about Gus every
      > day. I want to do the best thing I can for him. Thanks for any
      > info. you have. Steph
      > --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...>
      wrote:
      > > Pum's bp is 130 and the vet says thast good....he's on
      > atenolol....giving
      > > both the enalapril and the diltiazem sounds pretty drastic to
      > me....have
      > > they given you a reason why he's on both??? and how severe is his
      > hcm?
      > >
      > > linda
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Cynthia Rausch [mailto:crosseye@t...]
      > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:10 PM
      > > To: feline-heart@y...
      > > Subject: Re: [FH] heart rate
      > >
      > >
      > > Steph Schoff wrote:
      > > What is the average resting heart rate for a cat [w/ HCM]? My cat
      > was
      > > recently diagnosed w/ HCM and is on Enalapril & Diltiazem 1x day
      > and 1
      > > children's aspirin every 3 days. Before starting medication his
      > rate was
      > > around 132 bmp and now (2 weeks later) it's around 88-90. Called
      > > emergency vet yesterday and they said that was OK. I will call my
      > vet
      > > tomorrow but just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas. Thanks!
      > > Steph & Gus the cat.
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Steph,
      > >
      > > I think these are the ranges of normal from resting to an active,
      > > excited cat.
      > >
      > > source: The Merck Manual says 120 -140 bpm for cats
      > >
      > > source: The Veterinary Drug Handbook says
      > >
      > > Young cats 130-140
      > > Old cats 100-120
      > >
      > > source: The Cornell Book of Cats pg. 206
      > >
      > > A cat's heart normally beats from 120 to 240 times per minute.
      > > Strenuous exercise, stress, excitement, or fever will accelerate
      the
      > > number of times the heart contracts to keep up with the body's
      > demand
      > > for oxygenated blood. *Resting* heart rates should be much lower
      > than 240.
      > >
      > >
      > > There was not mention for Cats with heart problems, I assume they
      > > should be the same.
      > >
      > > Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@y...
      > >
      > >
      > >
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