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DCM respiration rate

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  • schendeldiane
    My Bentley was diagnosed with intestinal lymphoma last august and was put on 20 mg of prednisolone until I got on the feline lymphoma group and they all said
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 22, 2014
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      My Bentley was diagnosed with intestinal lymphoma last august and was put on 20 mg of prednisolone until I got on the feline lymphoma group and they all said that was too high so after 5 days I lowered it to 10 mg per day.  He is also on chlorambucil for the lymphoma.  He was doing great until January when his appetite waned and I took him back to the vet.  The vet examined him and noticed his heart had a gallop rhythm and he suggested an echo.  I had the echo which was unremarkable except that the contractility wasn't what it should be.  Since I had been feeding a very unbalanced diet due to his appetite issues (lots of chicken breast and steak) it was possible that he had a taurine deficiency.  I didn't want to spend the 350 for the test so we went with that and I have been giving him 500 mg taurine a day ever since along with CoQ10 and lowered his prednisolone to 5 mg per day.  Shortly after that he had a coughing episode kind of like when a cat hacks up a hairball.  This has happened several times since then and one of the attacks was quite scary.  His respirations are in the 30's at rest and as fast as 48 when up and around.  I told the vet about the coughing and he suggested a chest x-ray which I didn't do but now think I should do.   Can prednisolone cause DCM?  Is his respiration rate in the danger zone? 

      Thanks,

       Diane

       

       

    • Laurie Stead
      Diane, The resting respiration is what matters.  Their respiration will always be higher when moving about, even what lying down but awake watching things,
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 23, 2014
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        Diane,

        The resting respiration is what matters.  Their respiration will always be higher when moving about, even what lying down but awake watching things, smelling things.  They should be asleep but not in a dream state. 

        Steroids are very dangerous if a cat has heart disease, it can push them into CHF (cardiac heart failure).  You mention DCM but said Bentley had an echo by a cardiologist that determined he did not have the disease right?  The *coughing* could be asthmatic and an xray would determine this... the fact that you lowered the pred and the coughing attack worsened, makes me think it could be asthmatic.

        Hope you can get some answers soon!
        Laurie


        On Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:45 PM, "schendeldiane@..." <schendeldiane@...> wrote:
         

        My Bentley was diagnosed with intestinal lymphoma last august and was put on 20 mg of prednisolone until I got on the feline lymphoma group and they all said that was too high so after 5 days I lowered it to 10 mg per day.  He is also on chlorambucil for the lymphoma.  He was doing great until January when his appetite waned and I took him back to the vet.  The vet examined him and noticed his heart had a gallop rhythm and he suggested an echo.  I had the echo which was unremarkable except that the contractility wasn't what it should be.  Since I had been feeding a very unbalanced diet due to his appetite issues (lots of chicken breast and steak) it was possible that he had a taurine deficiency.  I didn't want to spend the 350 for the test so we went with that and I have been giving him 500 mg taurine a day ever since along with CoQ10 and lowered his prednisolone to 5 mg per day.  Shortly after that he had a coughing episode kind of like when a cat hacks up a hairball.  This has happened several times since then and one of the attacks was quite scary.  His respirations are in the 30's at rest and as fast as 48 when up and around.  I told the vet about the coughing and he suggested a chest x-ray which I didn't do but now think I should do.   Can prednisolone cause DCM?  Is his respiration rate in the danger zone? 
        Thanks,
         Diane
         
         


      • Elfinmyst
        Hi Diane The resting rate is the most important and over 30 can indicate heart disease. Have you had a recent ultrasound? That is the only way to diagnose
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 23, 2014
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          Hi Diane

          The resting rate is the most important and over 30 can indicate heart disease. Have you had a recent ultrasound? That is the only way to diagnose heart problems correctly and 
          if there are heart issues you need a good cardiologist to help balance the medications as the prednisolone can worsen heart failure in some cases. 

          Lyn
        • Diane Schendel
          I just got back from the vet.  He is not a cardiologist but an internal medicine specialist who has been treating the lymphoma.  Bently had a chest x-ray
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 24, 2014
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            I just got back from the vet.  He is not a cardiologist but an internal medicine specialist who has been treating the lymphoma.  Bently had a chest x-ray that showed infiltrates in his lungs.  His heart is enlarged, about twice the normal size.  My options were to redo the echo that showed reduced contractility on 1.28.14, try lasix and  redo the x-ray in two days to see if there were any changes.  Rerun the PNB? bloodwork that was high two months ago (over 900).  Vet said it could be asthma but I weaned him off of the prednilisone because I was worried more about his heart. 

            Everyone says I need to see a cardiologist, but this vet has been in practice for decades and is highly regarded here in Oregon.  I consulted with my normal vet regarding the cardiologist versus this vet and they were confident that he would be just as good.

            I may have to just give up and let him go until he is obviously uncomfortable and he doesn't seem to be at this point. He still plays with me and is up and around, eating but picky, and very affectionate.  I am not sleeping or eating well and am constantly stressed over him.  With the combination of the cancer, his heart and now his lungs, I just can't see dragging this out much longer.  It will be devastating but I may have to make that call. 


            On Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:20 AM, Laurie Stead <kittykatwhiskas@...> wrote:
             
            Diane,

            The resting respiration is what matters.  Their respiration will always be higher when moving about, even what lying down but awake watching things, smelling things.  They should be asleep but not in a dream state. 

            Steroids are very dangerous if a cat has heart disease, it can push them into CHF (cardiac heart failure).  You mention DCM but said Bentley had an echo by a cardiologist that determined he did not have the disease right?  The *coughing* could be asthmatic and an xray would determine this... the fact that you lowered the pred and the coughing attack worsened, makes me think it could be asthmatic.

            Hope you can get some answers soon!
            Laurie


            On Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:45 PM, "schendeldiane@..." <schendeldiane@...> wrote:
             

            My Bentley was diagnosed with intestinal lymphoma last august and was put on 20 mg of prednisolone until I got on the feline lymphoma group and they all said that was too high so after 5 days I lowered it to 10 mg per day.  He is also on chlorambucil for the lymphoma.  He was doing great until January when his appetite waned and I took him back to the vet.  The vet examined him and noticed his heart had a gallop rhythm and he suggested an echo.  I had the echo which was unremarkable except that the contractility wasn't what it should be.  Since I had been feeding a very unbalanced diet due to his appetite issues (lots of chicken breast and steak) it was possible that he had a taurine deficiency.  I didn't want to spend the 350 for the test so we went with that and I have been giving him 500 mg taurine a day ever since along with CoQ10 and lowered his prednisolone to 5 mg per day.  Shortly after that he had a coughing episode kind of like when a cat hacks up a hairball.  This has happened several times since then and one of the attacks was quite scary.  His respirations are in the 30's at rest and as fast as 48 when up and around.  I told the vet about the coughing and he suggested a chest x-ray which I didn't do but now think I should do.   Can prednisolone cause DCM?  Is his respiration rate in the danger zone? 
            Thanks,
             Diane
             
             




          • Elfinmyst
            HI If Bently isn t ready to give up yet, I would go with my instincts. There are a couple of options. As you aren t sure of the lungs are heart failure or
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 24, 2014
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              HI

              If Bently isn't ready to give up yet, I would go with my instincts. There are a couple of options. As you aren't sure of the lungs are heart failure or infection or asthma, when he has the repeat xrays your vet could do a bronchial wash to see what is in the lungs. That would show up infection or asthma, it was an internal medicine specialist did that for my Gus which showed his infection which we treated. Another option is to have the scan forwarded to a cardiologist.With Gus we weren't sure if asthma as well so he had the inhaler (aerokat) and had his steroids that way. Inhaled steroids are much safer and treat asthma well. Gus never minded the aerokat, he had it twice a day until we were sure it was just infection.

              Lyn
            • Diane Schendel
              Lyn, The vet never even mentioned an infection.  I opted not to try the lasix and re-x-ray.  I left doing nothing.  I guess I could ask to try an
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 24, 2014
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                Lyn,

                The vet never even mentioned an infection.  I opted not to try the lasix and re-x-ray.  I left doing nothing.  I guess I could ask to try an antibiotic.  I just figured if his heart is enlarged and his respiration rate is elevated then we are looking at a limited time frame.

                Diane


                On Monday, March 24, 2014 12:17 PM, Elfinmyst <elfinmyst@...> wrote:
                 
                HI

                If Bently isn't ready to give up yet, I would go with my instincts. There are a couple of options. As you aren't sure of the lungs are heart failure or infection or asthma, when he has the repeat xrays your vet could do a bronchial wash to see what is in the lungs. That would show up infection or asthma, it was an internal medicine specialist did that for my Gus which showed his infection which we treated. Another option is to have the scan forwarded to a cardiologist.With Gus we weren't sure if asthma as well so he had the inhaler (aerokat) and had his steroids that way. Inhaled steroids are much safer and treat asthma well. Gus never minded the aerokat, he had it twice a day until we were sure it was just infection.

                Lyn


              • Jordan
                Diane, My heart kitty Sheba also has asthma. And, from experience I will say DEFINITELY see a cardiologist!! The first year with my girl she would wheeze and
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 25, 2014
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                  Diane,

                  My heart kitty Sheba also has asthma.  And, from experience I will say DEFINITELY see a cardiologist!!  

                  The first year with my girl she would wheeze and when I took her to our regular vet she would treat her for a URI.  All to no avail.   Her symptoms would subside only to return again.      But when a chest Xray show an enlarged heart, she referred us to a cardiologist.     

                  It turned out to be the best thing that could have happened.    

                  Though I was not happy to discover she had heart disease, it was the cardiologist who diagnosed her with Inflammatory Airway Disease (IAD) off her chest Xray.     A radiograph will show the tell tale signs of tramlines and donuts in the lungs confirming the asthma diagnosis.

                  The cardiologist recommended I start her on inhaled steriods (Flovent) via an Aerokat inhaler.   It is the safest way to treat the inflammation in the lungs without the systemic side effects of oral steriods.   Sheba's asthma attacks and wheezing stopped immediately rarely to ever return now.     

                  Her asthma very is well controlled.

                  We still have twice yearly cardiologist visits where he checks BOTH her heart and lungs.   Her heart diseased has not progressed.  And typically one visit is for the cardiac ultrasound and the other is the chest Xray.

                  Hugs to you and Bentley,
                  Jordan and Sheba
                • Jordan
                  ... From: schendeldiane To: thegapgal Sent: Thu, Mar 27, 2014 5:26 pm Subject: Re: DCM respiration rate I did the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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                    This email was sent to me in error.   So I am forwarding it to the rest of the group:
                     


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: schendeldiane <schendeldiane@...>
                    To: thegapgal <thegapgal@...>
                    Sent: Thu, Mar 27, 2014 5:26 pm
                    Subject: Re: DCM respiration rate

                    I did the x-ray and unfortunately, his lungs have infiltrates that the vet thinks look like asthma but he's not 100% sure.  He said that his lungs didn't sound crackly, more wheezy. Here is what I found out about the echo when I asked questions:  The heart wall was not thinning.  There wasn't any thickening.  Measured thickness and diameter of ventricles.  Internal diameter wasn't bad.  The only thing that was problematic was the contractility and that wasn't really that bad either, that's why he thought that taurine deficiency was a possibility because of the unbalanced diet I was feeding him in an attempt to keep his weight up due to the lymphoma.   I wasn't told that his heart was enlarged at the time of the echo.  I only found out that it is quite enlarged because of the x-ray. 
                    I made the decision to have the internal med. Vet do the echo due to cost and he has been doing it for decades.  But now I'm not certain that it was a good idea.  I wonder if I could have a cardiologist consult on the echo and x-ray  that was done and how much that would cost.
                    Bentley had another mild episode of coughing early a.m. after eating.  His respirations were not bad at rest, 28-32, but last night they were 40 at rest.  I reinstated the prednisolone at 5mg per day hoping that it would help his breathing if it was asthma.  When he's up and around, he takes shorter, faster breaths that cause his head to rock with each inhale.  He is able to take a deep breath when needed. He still grooms himself, plays, eats, uses his scratching post, jumps up on things, prances around, so his rapid resp rate doesn't seem to be restricting him from activity.  It's stressing me more than him at this point.
                    I'm dealing with so many things with him that I just don't know what to do.  He won't eat enough canned/dry food so I feed him steak, chicken breast and salmon with CoQ10, taurine and calcium.  I know it isn't balanced but I have to get calories in him. I really can't keep spending hundreds of dollars every time I go to the vet. 

                    Thanks for all your input, it helps to talk to others with similar problems with their kitties.

                    Diane


                  • Elfinmyst
                    Hi Diane That s good news for the heart, normal thicknesses is always good, one of my cats has an enlarged heart but that s just him, it never bothered him.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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                      Hi Diane

                      That's good news for the heart, normal thicknesses is always good, one of my cats has an enlarged heart but that's just him, it never bothered him. Did the prednisolone you gave make his breathing better or worse? Worse would indicate heart problem and better asthma. 

                      Lyn

                      www.furkids-selkirks.com:-)
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