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Nattokinase - to treat thrombus in back legs

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  • siamese4
    Urgent advice required re blood clots. Situation is as follows: Early September Kenny, 9 year old male Siamese, suddenly lost use of front paw. Emergency vet
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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      Urgent advice required re blood clots.
      Situation is as follows:
      Early September Kenny, 9 year old male Siamese, suddenly lost use of front paw. Emergency vet diagnosed saddle rhythm and blood clot. Put on drip and two days later was back to normal. Next day back leg collapsed. Put back on drip for 3 days and regained full use. Subsequent Doppler scan has shown heart disease in mitral valve. Both sides are slightly inflated but muscle thickness normal. Another clot was revealed in the bottom of the heart. But vet said disease not as bad as feared.
      Since then he's been on a cocktail of drugs, Cystophan (because of previous urine problems), Amitriptyline (spraying issues), Plavix, Benazepril, plus small amount of a diuretic. These are daily with a small dose of aspirin every 3 days.
      Seemed to be doing the trick and at visit to vets 2 weeks ago were pleased with him. Heart rate nice and steady, and, saddle rhythm gone.
      However, like before, last Saturday within minutes he just lost the use of both back legs. Obviously the clot in his heart had decided to move.
      Rushed him to vets who administered heparin and morphine, although he didn't seem to be in pain. They gave us solution to syringe him to keep him re-hydrated and told us to prepare for the worst.
      He can't be given any more drugs as might thin blood too much and cause internal bleed.
      Since then there has been an improvement. Not much of an appetite and he has to be spoon fed including water and cat milk. (Saying that he's always liked to play the invalid). Toilet habits are normal.
      Rubbing and exercising his legs / pads. At first the lower limbs were cold but we're getting them warmer and they stay warmer longer now. Body temperature is good. Pulse in one leg is very weak though, other not so bad. Can get around and will scoot on his back legs if you bend the worst one for him first but this one tends to then turn and has to be dragged.
      Not on pain meds at all now and seems fine.
      That's the situation upto now.
      We have been looking at ways we can help him and came across a soy enzyme called Nattokinase. The stories, if they are to be believed, are quite amazing and, in an enteric form, there seems to be excellent results in that it `dissolves' the clot. Anyone have any experience? From what we read, if we do decide to go ahead, he'll need to come off the aspirin and the Plavix at the least as the blood may thin too much and cause bleeding. But we don't know how long we should take them off him for before giving the Nattokinase. If we discuss with vet they will be of the opinion that we should carry on as we are due to them not having any experience with this medicine. Should we carry on as we are and if it gets worse try it? We just don't know what's for the best. Any information / advice you can give would be very much appreciated as we really don't want to lose Kenny just yet.
      Thank you
    • elfinmyst
      Hi I am sorry to hear of Kenny. A lot of people here use nattokinase and I have used it in the past too, for years. I use Doctor s best as it must have vitamin
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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        Hi
         
        I am sorry to hear of Kenny. A lot of people here use nattokinase and I have used it in the past too, for years. I use Doctor's best as it must have vitamin K removed for cats. You are right you shouldn't use it with plavix and aspirin as in some studies it has caused cerebral bleeds. But they work in different ways.
         
        Plavix thins the blood to make it less 'sticky' to prevent clots occuring by making the platelets less able to stick together.
         
        . Thinks what a blood clot is. The blood protein fibrinogen is soluble. When there is a bleed, fibrinogen is converted into fibrin fibres which makes a matrix for the blood platelets to get stuck in. Nattokinase doesn't thin the blood at all, it is an enzyme which works on the protein fibrin which is part of a blood clot and actually dissolves it. The danger of both together is that plavix makes the blood thinner and to clot more slowly and Natto dissolves any clots. So if there are tiny cerebral bleeds then the body usually clots these but the natto dissolves it and there is bleeding to the brain because the blood is also thin. Hope that makes sense. It explain why one or the other. On there own they are quite safe.
         
        I can't say which to use. I use plavix with all mine now but not aspirin yet. He is on the right drugs at the hospital and the warmth in his paws is excellent news for recovery this time. I hope someone else can help you with this decision but cardiologists don't tend to use 'alternatives' if there is a veterinary medicine available.
         
        Lyn
         
      • JOHN LEVENS
        I used it on my cat Max who has now passed.  I was out of the country and couldn t get the right dose of Plavix so I doubled the dose I was giving him of
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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          I used it on my cat Max who has now passed.  I was out of the country and couldn't get the right dose of Plavix so I doubled the dose I was giving him of Nattokinase (I think it was 35 doubled to 70.)  He recovered from his clot quickly and never had another (with continued use of the higher dose of Nattokinasse.)  I can't say for sure it was the Natto which cured him, but my vet at UC Davis was very surprised that he never threw another clot and happy with his recovery.  He read up on it and said OK to use and advised I use it with both aspirin and Plavix and to watch for bleeding in the gums...I decided to use it alone, and I was lucky.  I don't for this reason think you have to wait to wean him off the Plavix and/or aspirin...I think you can stop one or both and start the Nattokinasse, but I am not a vet.
          In any case, good luck with Kenny...I hope he improves quickly.  Since he's thrown so many clots I think you may be really helping him by switching to the Natto.
          Judi and Angel Max


          From: siamese4 <agwilcox@...>
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:29 AM
          Subject: [FH] Nattokinase - to treat thrombus in back legs

           
          Urgent advice required re blood clots.
          Situation is as follows:
          Early September Kenny, 9 year old male Siamese, suddenly lost use of front paw. Emergency vet diagnosed saddle rhythm and blood clot. Put on drip and two days later was back to normal. Next day back leg collapsed. Put back on drip for 3 days and regained full use. Subsequent Doppler scan has shown heart disease in mitral valve. Both sides are slightly inflated but muscle thickness normal. Another clot was revealed in the bottom of the heart. But vet said disease not as bad as feared.
          Since then he's been on a cocktail of drugs, Cystophan (because of previous urine problems), Amitriptyline (spraying issues), Plavix, Benazepril, plus small amount of a diuretic. These are daily with a small dose of aspirin every 3 days.
          Seemed to be doing the trick and at visit to vets 2 weeks ago were pleased with him. Heart rate nice and steady, and, saddle rhythm gone.
          However, like before, last Saturday within minutes he just lost the use of both back legs. Obviously the clot in his heart had decided to move.
          Rushed him to vets who administered heparin and morphine, although he didn't seem to be in pain. They gave us solution to syringe him to keep him re-hydrated and told us to prepare for the worst.
          He can't be given any more drugs as might thin blood too much and cause internal bleed.
          Since then there has been an improvement. Not much of an appetite and he has to be spoon fed including water and cat milk. (Saying that he's always liked to play the invalid). Toilet habits are normal.
          Rubbing and exercising his legs / pads. At first the lower limbs were cold but we're getting them warmer and they stay warmer longer now. Body temperature is good. Pulse in one leg is very weak though, other not so bad. Can get around and will scoot on his back legs if you bend the worst one for him first but this one tends to then turn and has to be dragged.
          Not on pain meds at all now and seems fine.
          That's the situation upto now.
          We have been looking at ways we can help him and came across a soy enzyme called Nattokinase. The stories, if they are to be believed, are quite amazing and, in an enteric form, there seems to be excellent results in that it `dissolves' the clot. Anyone have any experience? From what we read, if we do decide to go ahead, he'll need to come off the aspirin and the Plavix at the least as the blood may thin too much and cause bleeding. But we don't know how long we should take them off him for before giving the Nattokinase. If we discuss with vet they will be of the opinion that we should carry on as we are due to them not having any experience with this medicine. Should we carry on as we are and if it gets worse try it? We just don't know what's for the best. Any information / advice you can give would be very much appreciated as we really don't want to lose Kenny just yet.
          Thank you



        • carolroars
          We ve been using Nattokinase on our 22 1/2yr old Misty for two years now, after she had an event that the vets thought was a stroke. At first they had her on
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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             We've been using Nattokinase on our 22 1/2yr old Misty for two years now, after she had an event that the vets thought was a stroke.  At first they had her on Plavix, but while on it she had more episodes, so we switched her to Nattokinase, and in the past two years, she's had only 3 more episodes, and the ones she had were not as bad as the first ones. 


            Please remember if you use Nattokinase, that you must buy one that has the Vitamin K removed. Vitamin K makes blood clot.  Also do not use Nattokinase with other kinds of blood thinners including aspirin.


            Carol



            ---In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, <agwilcox@...> wrote:

            Urgent advice required re blood clots.
            Situation is as follows:
            Early September Kenny, 9 year old male Siamese, suddenly lost use of front paw. Emergency vet diagnosed saddle rhythm and blood clot. Put on drip and two days later was back to normal. Next day back leg collapsed. Put back on drip for 3 days and regained full use. Subsequent Doppler scan has shown heart disease in mitral valve. Both sides are slightly inflated but muscle thickness normal. Another clot was revealed in the bottom of the heart. But vet said disease not as bad as feared.
            Since then he's been on a cocktail of drugs, Cystophan (because of previous urine problems), Amitriptyline (spraying issues), Plavix, Benazepril, plus small amount of a diuretic. These are daily with a small dose of aspirin every 3 days.
            Seemed to be doing the trick and at visit to vets 2 weeks ago were pleased with him. Heart rate nice and steady, and, saddle rhythm gone.
            However, like before, last Saturday within minutes he just lost the use of both back legs. Obviously the clot in his heart had decided to move.
            Rushed him to vets who administered heparin and morphine, although he didn't seem to be in pain. They gave us solution to syringe him to keep him re-hydrated and told us to prepare for the worst.
            He can't be given any more drugs as might thin blood too much and cause internal bleed.
            Since then there has been an improvement. Not much of an appetite and he has to be spoon fed including water and cat milk. (Saying that he's always liked to play the invalid). Toilet habits are normal.
            Rubbing and exercising his legs / pads. At first the lower limbs were cold but we're getting them warmer and they stay warmer longer now. Body temperature is good. Pulse in one leg is very weak though, other not so bad. Can get around and will scoot on his back legs if you bend the worst one for him first but this one tends to then turn and has to be dragged.
            Not on pain meds at all now and seems fine.
            That's the situation upto now.
            We have been looking at ways we can help him and came across a soy enzyme called Nattokinase. The stories, if they are to be believed, are quite amazing and, in an enteric form, there seems to be excellent results in that it `dissolves' the clot. Anyone have any experience? From what we read, if we do decide to go ahead, he'll need to come off the aspirin and the Plavix at the least as the blood may thin too much and cause bleeding. But we don't know how long we should take them off him for before giving the Nattokinase. If we discuss with vet they will be of the opinion that we should carry on as we are due to them not having any experience with this medicine. Should we carry on as we are and if it gets worse try it? We just don't know what's for the best. Any information / advice you can give would be very much appreciated as we really don't want to lose Kenny just yet.
            Thank you
          • Westgold
            These stories have all been so interesting. But they are all about cats who were started on natto AFTER they had a clot. What is the story for those kitties
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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              These stories have all been so interesting.  But they are all about cats who were started on natto AFTER they had a clot.  What is the story for those kitties who have never had a clot and seem perfectly healthy? 
            • Leigh Arrathoon
              My 19 year old, who had the strokes, was also called Misty! She was a very neat cat! Leigh
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 23, 2013
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                My 19 year old, who had the strokes, was also called Misty! She was a very neat cat!
                Leigh


                On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 1:36 PM, <carolroar@...> wrote:
                 

                 We've been using Nattokinase on our 22 1/2yr old Misty for two years now, after she had an event that the vets thought was a stroke.  At first they had her on Plavix, but while on it she had more episodes, so we switched her to Nattokinase, and in the past two years, she's had only 3 more episodes, and the ones she had were not as bad as the first ones. 


                Please remember if you use Nattokinase, that you must buy one that has the Vitamin K removed. Vitamin K makes blood clot.  Also do not use Nattokinase with other kinds of blood thinners including aspirin.


                Carol



                ---In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, <agwilcox@...> wrote:

                Urgent advice required re blood clots.
                Situation is as follows:
                Early September Kenny, 9 year old male Siamese, suddenly lost use of front paw. Emergency vet diagnosed saddle rhythm and blood clot. Put on drip and two days later was back to normal. Next day back leg collapsed. Put back on drip for 3 days and regained full use. Subsequent Doppler scan has shown heart disease in mitral valve. Both sides are slightly inflated but muscle thickness normal. Another clot was revealed in the bottom of the heart. But vet said disease not as bad as feared.
                Since then he's been on a cocktail of drugs, Cystophan (because of previous urine problems), Amitriptyline (spraying issues), Plavix, Benazepril, plus small amount of a diuretic. These are daily with a small dose of aspirin every 3 days.
                Seemed to be doing the trick and at visit to vets 2 weeks ago were pleased with him. Heart rate nice and steady, and, saddle rhythm gone.
                However, like before, last Saturday within minutes he just lost the use of both back legs. Obviously the clot in his heart had decided to move.
                Rushed him to vets who administered heparin and morphine, although he didn't seem to be in pain. They gave us solution to syringe him to keep him re-hydrated and told us to prepare for the worst.
                He can't be given any more drugs as might thin blood too much and cause internal bleed.
                Since then there has been an improvement. Not much of an appetite and he has to be spoon fed including water and cat milk. (Saying that he's always liked to play the invalid). Toilet habits are normal.
                Rubbing and exercising his legs / pads. At first the lower limbs were cold but we're getting them warmer and they stay warmer longer now. Body temperature is good. Pulse in one leg is very weak though, other not so bad. Can get around and will scoot on his back legs if you bend the worst one for him first but this one tends to then turn and has to be dragged.
                Not on pain meds at all now and seems fine.
                That's the situation upto now.
                We have been looking at ways we can help him and came across a soy enzyme called Nattokinase. The stories, if they are to be believed, are quite amazing and, in an enteric form, there seems to be excellent results in that it `dissolves' the clot. Anyone have any experience? From what we read, if we do decide to go ahead, he'll need to come off the aspirin and the Plavix at the least as the blood may thin too much and cause bleeding. But we don't know how long we should take them off him for before giving the Nattokinase. If we discuss with vet they will be of the opinion that we should carry on as we are due to them not having any experience with this medicine. Should we carry on as we are and if it gets worse try it? We just don't know what's for the best. Any information / advice you can give would be very much appreciated as we really don't want to lose Kenny just yet.
                Thank you


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