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Re: [FH] Devastaded parents...

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  • dawnakapumpkin
    Hi everyone! I think I emailed one of you v.s. posting my reply, sorry about that...I m new to this forum and group...Anyway, hopefully this gets on the chain
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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      Hi everyone! I think I emailed one of you v.s. posting my reply, sorry about that...I'm new to this forum and group...Anyway, hopefully this gets on the chain again. Yes, he is eating and if not, we are getting him to lick chicken baby food (w/out the onion pd and add., etc..) and nutrical..his liver and kidneys are good...we will recheck again Monday since he's been down again for the past few days...sorry if my message came across like he has had nothing...we would not let that happen! In fact I had the baby food left over and was going to give our 1 yr old b/c he began eating well again (still gave nutrical but he ate dry and wet food, etc.) overall..not perfect, but doing it on his own and then this week for some reason went downhill. He is having BM, etc..still...so that's good but we just are curious if this has happened to any of you who are coping and caring for a HCM pet?

      We have been well informed from the vets, specialists, etc..but no one seems to discuss the ups and downs w/Pumpkin. He orig. went in for an infection and bowel obstruction..came home and then went into congestive heart failure and we confirmed w/a cardiologist a week later the HCM (they think the stress and fluids triggered this--congestive HF that is). However, he was not eating on his own still then besides treats and what we were giving him...so she felt the lasix meds were hurting his appetite and kidneys..they were (ran more tests)..so we took him off, gave fluids again and levels improved and in fact his appetite and all improved, etc.. Until last week, he was eating on his own, interested, curious, etc..still not himself but we are prepared to never see a full return..but what can we expect with the ups and downs? The vets seem to feel it's positive and "rare" he does not go into congestive heart fail. w/out the lasix (we have a plan if his respiration rate goes above 30/min to give him a 1/4 pill)..but he's been great (on that end that is). However, no one seems to get or inform us about the ups and downs with eating still...on his own that is! It's hard to get him to put his weight back on with the ups and downs..even with the force feeding.

      Anyway, this is new to us and we felt a support group would be good to see what is "normal" compared to what he's going through. I can read all about HCM and discuss w/our vets but it's nice to have the real-time support with others who are going or have been through this w/their pet. We appreciate any and all advice! Thanks! We also go to the vet again tomorrow for more blood work and check up...wondering if a med (other than lasix) will help him "feel better"??

      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, mmayer11@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > Eating is essential...even 2 days is too long he/cats runs the grave risk of fatty liver disease, if they go without food. This not true of dogs, but a very dangerous problem alone for cats.
      > If he won't eat...join the Feline-Assisted Feeding group ...a yahoo group like ours ...for how to assist. This is an excellent group, and there is no wait when trying to join. Do not delay!
      >
      > Feline-Assisted-Feeding@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Marianna
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -
      >
      >
      >
      > ..>>>can you get him to at least eat some chicken baby food? without additives? 2
      > weeks is too long to go without eating...he may be very ill now from that alone,
      > but I would try the baby food. good luck...Judi and Angel Max
      >
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      > In November when we returned from our Thanksgiving trip our 7yr old
      > Persian (red tabby) Pumpkin seemed depressed..he's a tempered cat (knocks over
      > things when he wants our attention, paws at us if he is not satisfied) so we
      > thought it was b/c we left, etc.. Then, he became lethargic, etc...took him to
      > the vet and his fever was horrible and they also felt he had a bowel
      > obstruction..so they kept him..barium moved through so we brought him home...2
      > days later he could not breathe so Rushed him the the vet er...congestive
      > HF...so 2 things...after 2 days and on heart meds we brought him home..still not
      > eating... eventually he was dx with HCM...and blood tests showed the heart meds
      > were hurting his liver/kidneys..so off of them we went. Eventually he began
      > eating a tad more, showing interest, etc.. but the last 2 wks nothing...no
      > eating...odd drool when we give him nutrical, etc.. (kinda like when we use to
      > give him the meds)... We are devastated...not sure what to do...
      > We take him to the vet again Mon. for blood work again... How did he get 2
      > things at once and what is normal w/this dx..??? Are ups and downs normal? He's
      > a big framed cat..so tiny now and boney... I'm so scared...we all are.. we just
      > want some a advice but the heart doc is not help and reg. vet seem clueless..
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks so much!
      >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will
      > benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@...!
      > Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • dawnakapumpkin
      PS, I just re-read my orig. post I sent last night...no wonder...I meant the last 2 days not weeks in which he s not wanted to eat a thing...sorry about
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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        PS, I just re-read my orig. post I sent last night...no wonder...I meant the last "2 days" not weeks in which he's not wanted to eat a thing...sorry about that:). That's what happens when I email late, a tad sad esp. w/Pumpkin' condition and how hard it's been on all of us. Sorry again about that mix up! However, again, even within the past 2 days we are getting things down him...he just does not want to eat on his own.. See below for our concerns and HCM..what is normal, etc..in your experience? That would be great, thanks!!

        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "dawnakapumpkin" wrote:


        > Hi everyone! I think I emailed one of you v.s. posting my reply, sorry about that...I'm new to this forum and group...Anyway, hopefully this gets on the chain again. Yes, he is eating and if not, we are getting him to lick chicken baby food (w/out the onion pd and add., etc..) and nutrical..his liver and kidneys are good...we will recheck again Monday since he's been down again for the past few days...sorry if my message came across like he has had nothing...we would not let that happen! In fact I had the baby food left over and was going to give our 1 yr old b/c he began eating well again (still gave nutrical but he ate dry and wet food, etc.) overall..not perfect, but doing it on his own and then this week for some reason went downhill. He is having BM, etc..still...so that's good but we just are curious if this has happened to any of you who are coping and caring for a HCM pet?
        >
        > We have been well informed from the vets, specialists, etc..but no one seems to discuss the ups and downs w/Pumpkin. He orig. went in for an infection and bowel obstruction..came home and then went into congestive heart failure and we confirmed w/a cardiologist a week later the HCM (they think the stress and fluids triggered this--congestive HF that is). However, he was not eating on his own still then besides treats and what we were giving him...so she felt the lasix meds were hurting his appetite and kidneys..they were (ran more tests)..so we took him off, gave fluids again and levels improved and in fact his appetite and all improved, etc.. Until last week, he was eating on his own, interested, curious, etc..still not himself but we are prepared to never see a full return..but what can we expect with the ups and downs? The vets seem to feel it's positive and "rare" he does not go into congestive heart fail. w/out the lasix (we have a plan if his respiration rate goes above 30/min to give him a 1/4 pill)..but he's been great (on that end that is). However, no one seems to get or inform us about the ups and downs with eating still...on his own that is! It's hard to get him to put his weight back on with the ups and downs..even with the force feeding.
        >
        > Anyway, this is new to us and we felt a support group would be good to see what is "normal" compared to what he's going through. I can read all about HCM and discuss w/our vets but it's nice to have the real-time support with others who are going or have been through this w/their pet. We appreciate any and all advice! Thanks! We also go to the vet again tomorrow for more blood work and check up...wondering if a med (other than lasix) will help him "feel better"??
        >
        > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, mmayer11@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Eating is essential...even 2 days is too long he/cats runs the grave risk of fatty liver disease, if they go without food. This not true of dogs, but a very dangerous problem alone for cats.
        > > If he won't eat...join the Feline-Assisted Feeding group ...a yahoo group like ours ...for how to assist. This is an excellent group, and there is no wait when trying to join. Do not delay!
        > >
        > > Feline-Assisted-Feeding@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Marianna
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ..>>>can you get him to at least eat some chicken baby food? without additives? 2
        > > weeks is too long to go without eating...he may be very ill now from that alone,
        > > but I would try the baby food. good luck...Judi and Angel Max
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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        > > In November when we returned from our Thanksgiving trip our 7yr old
        > > Persian (red tabby) Pumpkin seemed depressed..he's a tempered cat (knocks over
        > > things when he wants our attention, paws at us if he is not satisfied) so we
        > > thought it was b/c we left, etc.. Then, he became lethargic, etc...took him to
        > > the vet and his fever was horrible and they also felt he had a bowel
        > > obstruction..so they kept him..barium moved through so we brought him home...2
        > > days later he could not breathe so Rushed him the the vet er...congestive
        > > HF...so 2 things...after 2 days and on heart meds we brought him home..still not
        > > eating... eventually he was dx with HCM...and blood tests showed the heart meds
        > > were hurting his liver/kidneys..so off of them we went. Eventually he began
        > > eating a tad more, showing interest, etc.. but the last 2 wks nothing...no
        > > eating...odd drool when we give him nutrical, etc.. (kinda like when we use to
        > > give him the meds)... We are devastated...not sure what to do...
        > > We take him to the vet again Mon. for blood work again... How did he get 2
        > > things at once and what is normal w/this dx..??? Are ups and downs normal? He's
        > > a big framed cat..so tiny now and boney... I'm so scared...we all are.. we just
        > > want some a advice but the heart doc is not help and reg. vet seem clueless..
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks so much!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will
        > > benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@!
        > > Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • elfinmyst
        Hi There are lots of things you can do to help. First there is a diuretic called spironolactone which doesn t damage the kidneys as much as lasix. It can be
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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          Hi

          There are lots of things you can do to help. First there is a diuretic
          called spironolactone which doesn't damage the kidneys as much as lasix. It can
          be given with lasix as well.

          There are other drugs to help a failing heart like an ACE inhibitor (these
          also aid the kidneys) like fortekor, a betablocker like atenolol. Plavix
          can be given to reduce the risk of a blood clot or nattokinase which a lot
          here use.

          Learn to count breaths and see what is normal when your cat is resting. It
          should be around 20. Over 30 is concern, over 40 an emergency. Count for 15
          seconds and times by 4. You can see heart failure approaching by a change
          in behaviour, sitting up and unable to lie comfortably on their side, raspy
          or coughing breathing.

          Add COQ10 at 30mg a day from the health store. My heart cats have been on
          that for 6 years.

          :) Lyn

          _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dawnakapumpkin
          Thanks Lyn! first, re the breathing, we ve gotten good at that--monitoring (thankfully)...Pumpkin had just been home from the hospital a week and a half after
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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            Thanks Lyn! first, re the breathing, we've gotten good at that--monitoring (thankfully)...Pumpkin had just been home from the hospital a week and a half after finding him barely breathing in our bathroom in the mid-night and rushed him to the ER...in congestive HF....so when we got home we set up an appt as soon as we could and we took him to the cardio vet...it was pretty far away from our home since there are so few in the area...we did not want to wait for her to travel due to his lack of appetite still...anyway, after leaving and the new concerns of the kidneys, she wanted him to stay there and get his levels back up (we choose the option to bring him home and monitor here..she was worried about the liquids via his neck again, causing sudden congestive HF...with the expense and stress on him being away again, we brought him home and learned quickly how to watch the breathing (counting) and were instructed to give him a 1/4 tab of lasix 2X/day if the breathing went over 30...otherwise, off all meds except potasium at that time..... good thing is he's doing well so far for over a month or so with no breathing issues and no meds...but it's nice to know about the other options...to explore w/our vet, etc.. I def. know what to look for if his breathing becomes off again as I noticed it right away before...everyone then told us to give him time (he had an infection/fever)..but it got worse and then I found him...I won't make that mistake again..waiting that is...just again we are in new territory here..

            My husband & I are also wondering if another heart med (maybe what you are referring to also in this post reply) may give him more energy..feel better so perhaps he'll want to eat more on his own again... He was doing so well for a bit (compared to how he orig. was when this all happened and we found out about the dx of the heart condition) so it has worried us the past couple days about lack in eating.. (on his own again...he will lick the food I give him thankfully and we are on it every couple hrs via the day).

            In your experience, do cats rebound to almost normal or does it just vary? We keep hearing "give him time..he's been through so much" but it's heart breaking....I just don't want him to be miserable, etc..he's a huge part of our family!

            Anyway, I'll write this down and discuss w/our vet tomorrow..he works w/this but he's not the cardio vet and we can't go to her every time...too far and she works out of a 24/7 ER clinic... I also know how stressed he gets when going to get checked and checked, etc..

            Thanks again..any help/advice is appreciated!!

            Dawnaka
          • marianna.mayer
            Great as always. Lyn is spot on. I do think that this disease is erratic. It keeps the caretaker on his/her toes, b/c the condition can change on a dime. And
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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              Great as always. Lyn is spot on.

              I do think that this disease is erratic. It keeps the caretaker on his/her toes, b/c the condition can change on a dime. And we don't have a direct line with the patient, so we have little warning until our stoic kitty finally shows discomfort. Cats will mask their symptoms even better than dogs...due to how they are made. Even a diligent caretaker can miss an early sign of trouble quite easily.

              Also reading through your posts, I am left wondering if part of your kitty's discomfort is *perhaps due to gastric problems. We...most of us...see this when dealing with multiple health issues plus meds and food. You might consider pepcid AC ...a 1/4 of a tablet [cut from a 10 mg dose] twice daily with a little food...2--3 hrs away from other meds. It might help. Worth a try...3--4 days... on this will do no harm, and might help. If you decide to try this, keep in mind that even crushed this tiny tiny amount is very bitter tasting. So it will need to be masked with something tasty and finger fed or mixed with some good tasting liquefied substance and syringe fed.
              HTH




              Marianna




              -----Original Message-----
              From: elfinmyst <elfinmyst@...>
              To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2013 2:56 pm
              Subject: [FH] Re: Devastaded parents...





              Hi

              There are lots of things you can do to help. First there is a diuretic
              called spironolactone which doesn't damage the kidneys as much as lasix. It can
              be given with lasix as well.

              There are other drugs to help a failing heart like an ACE inhibitor (these
              also aid the kidneys) like fortekor, a betablocker like atenolol. Plavix
              can be given to reduce the risk of a blood clot or nattokinase which a lot
              here use.

              Learn to count breaths and see what is normal when your cat is resting. It
              should be around 20. Over 30 is concern, over 40 an emergency. Count for 15
              seconds and times by 4. You can see heart failure approaching by a change
              in behaviour, sitting up and unable to lie comfortably on their side, raspy
              or coughing breathing.

              Add COQ10 at 30mg a day from the health store. My heart cats have been on
              that for 6 years.

              :) Lyn

              _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dawnakapumpkin
              Thanks so much here as well! PS, sorry if I emailed you solely before...again, I m getting use to this forum and format.. And I apologize again for saying 2
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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                Thanks so much here as well! PS, sorry if I emailed you solely before...again, I'm getting use to this forum and format.. And I apologize again for saying 2 wks v.s. 2 days of not eating..but good thing is he is eating the baby food (w/out any additives) off our finger just well... today he ate more than the past 2 days but of course w/our encouragement...

                The vet is mystified about his condition..he def. appreciates the dx and will work w/the heart doc..but he's confused (as we are) about how this all started..maybe the infection just displayed the heart condition that it was all along (but as you said cats are great at masking things...this boy for sure..so full of life..we have always called him our dog in disguise because he knocks over trash cans if upset or jealous, etc.. and he's always picking on his younger brother kitty....or did of course until now).. but then went into congestive heart failure w/the stress of the infection or treatment from it, etc.... The blessing again is no problems w/breathing since..so hoping and we take his rate constantly.. I would have never known to do this until going through this and only wished I had know previously to the ER visit...

                The vet did say that he saw ulcerations in his small intest. (his theory about the orig. infection was he ingested something..it partially blocked intestines and then passed..but ulcerations perhaps..so this could still be bothering him). WBC is finally fine but even early on it was so high even w/antibiotics.... I'll ask him tom. about what you suggested as well...worth a try for sure! BTW, he's the cat that eats everything too...chews on plastic wrappers, etc...so with the orig. dx of an infection..obstruction we def. saw that it was possible and prob. happened when we were gone on vacation (I feel guilty about leaving...but I guess we could say this about a lot of things in life...he's never had an issue when we left at anytime in his life until now..)...but we never expected the heart stuff...just a lot to absorb...

                I guess we need to get use to the ups and downs but it is scary.. Anyway, I could go on but thank you so much...we've needed to vent and seek other opin. here/there and we again thank you all! We'll keep you posted...

                PS, he'll be 8 on 2/13..hoping it's a good one for him!

                Thanks again!

                Dawnaka

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, mmayer11@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > Great as always. Lyn is spot on.
                >
                > I do think that this disease is erratic. It keeps the caretaker on his/her toes, b/c the condition can change on a dime. And we don't have a direct line with the patient, so we have little warning until our stoic kitty finally shows discomfort. Cats will mask their symptoms even better than dogs...due to how they are made. Even a diligent caretaker can miss an early sign of trouble quite easily.
                >
                > Also reading through your posts, I am left wondering if part of your kitty's discomfort is *perhaps due to gastric problems. We...most of us...see this when dealing with multiple health issues plus meds and food. You might consider pepcid AC ...a 1/4 of a tablet [cut from a 10 mg dose] twice daily with a little food...2--3 hrs away from other meds. It might help. Worth a try...3--4 days... on this will do no harm, and might help. If you decide to try this, keep in mind that even crushed this tiny tiny amount is very bitter tasting. So it will need to be masked with something tasty and finger fed or mixed with some good tasting liquefied substance and syringe fed.
                > HTH
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Marianna
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: elfinmyst
                > To: feline-heart
                > Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2013 2:56 pm
                > Subject: [FH] Re: Devastaded parents...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi
                >
                > There are lots of things you can do to help. First there is a diuretic
                > called spironolactone which doesn't damage the kidneys as much as lasix. It can
                > be given with lasix as well.
                >
                > There are other drugs to help a failing heart like an ACE inhibitor (these
                > also aid the kidneys) like fortekor, a betablocker like atenolol. Plavix
                > can be given to reduce the risk of a blood clot or nattokinase which a lot
                > here use.
                >
                > Learn to count breaths and see what is normal when your cat is resting. It
                > should be around 20. Over 30 is concern, over 40 an emergency. Count for 15
                > seconds and times by 4. You can see heart failure approaching by a change
                > in behaviour, sitting up and unable to lie comfortably on their side, raspy
                > or coughing breathing.
                >
                > Add COQ10 at 30mg a day from the health store. My heart cats have been on
                > that for 6 years.
                >
                > :) Lyn
                >
                > _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • marianna.mayer
                Aaah that magic age of 8--9. It was when my own poor boy...was in all ways beyond healthy...displayed his first fatal sign of a heart issue showed his first.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 20, 2013
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                  Aaah that magic age of 8--9. It was when my own poor boy...was in all ways beyond healthy...displayed his first 'fatal' sign of a heart issue showed his first. And at that point he was at the 'last stage', so declared the cardio vet...never a sign, never a clue. The cardio vet told me along with the other assisting vets that they had never seen a healthier cat. BUT his poor heart told another story.

                  If your boy...does he have a name you'll share? Did I miss it? is it Pumpkin? Anyway, if your boy would be willing, and if he was my boy, I'd start him on slippery elm bark powder made into a syrup, b/c you say his intestinal tract has been compromised...if I have understood you rightly, then this needs to heal. There is nothing more gentle, nor more healing.
                  Here is the recipe for the syrup for you to consider:

                  Thoroughly mix 1 slightly rounded teaspoon of slippery elm powder with 1 cup of cold water. **Bring to a boil while stirring constantly. Then turn the heat down to simmer and continue to stir for another 2 to 3 minutes while the mixture thickens slightly. Remove from the heat. Cool to room temperature and give 1/2 to 1 teaspoon to cats and small dogs (under 20 lbs). Give this dose 2-4 times a day, or about every 4 hours. Cover the mixture and store in refrigerator. It will keep for at least a week.
                  **Note: I sometimes just add water and mix. It sets up quickly. The boiling is not entirely necessary.


                  **You will need to give this at least 2 hrs before or after any
                  medications because it could interfere with absorption of supplements and meds.

                  Here are some web sites with additional info:
                  http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/article.asp?PageType=article&ID=1460
                  http://www.holisticat.com/slipelm_arch.html
                  http://www.mindspring.com/~kerspin/Med%26Tech-Vomiting%26Nausea.htm
                  http://members.iinet.net.au/~amesvet/Dogs/Level2/rfpp26.htm (scroll down to
                  the second section)
                  http://www.metromkt.net/viable/1slipper.shtml
                  http://www.go-symmetry.com/slippery-elm.htm


                  Marianna








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dawnakapumpkin
                  I just emailed you again, I m so sorry! I meant to post again in my reply to you.....overall for everyone else and yourself as well...he is in the vet
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 21, 2013
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                    I just emailed you again, I'm so sorry! I meant to post again in my reply to you.....overall for everyone else and yourself as well...he is in the vet hospital overnight..liver levels now a concern (a first this entire time)..we are thinking it's something else v.s. just heart issues..

                    His name is Pumpkin (red tabby Persian--beautiful boy)..our almost 8 yr old and we're devastated... He's not on any meds to hurt the liver/kidneys..kidneys were fine.....he was just jaundice and concern for liver levels today... Doc felt that it was not a lack of eating since he was on track for several weeks and we still got stuff in him the past 3 days... He's also still amazed that Pumpkin is not having congestive issue since he's not been medicated for that since early Dec. Just devastating but we should find out more soon when he calls and of course tom. We're not ready to give up...he is tiny for his frame and lost a couple more lbs...he should be 12-15 lbs when he is now 7.58....

                    Just lost! Marianna, did you lost your healthy boy then (do you mind?)..were there multiple issues as well? Perhaps one thing exposed the other? Our vet said the liver issues today have nothing to do w/the heart condition but that of course still does not mean there is not heart issues...as you said they mask it well and that magic age tends to display it.

                    We're just confused but any advice is welcome and I sincerely appreciate what you've given so far! BTW, if our vet still feels that there are issues w/the tummy/intestines, I will use your notes about that...anything natural is great as well! I just hope Pumpkin pulls through this..we again are not ready to lose him. We left for a Thanksgiving trip this yr and came home to a very sick cat...orig. infection, fever, etc..then congestive heart issues.... Just a lot esp. when he's such a big part of our family!

                    Thanks again!!

                    Dawnaka

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