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Re: Heart Disease & sub-Q fluids

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  • pfeifferv2001
    Dear Eve, Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF. A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk. was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
      Dear Eve,

      Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.

      A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
      was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
      heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.

      He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
      tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.

      He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
      the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
      with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.

      I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
      ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.

      I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)

      Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe
    • elevine41
      ... disease. ... he had ... Three ... back, they ... he was ... said he did ... which is ... classic ... the time, ... sprained knee), ... make him ... good
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
        --- In feline-heart@y..., JettawayFCRs@a... wrote:
        > I would be very concerned about giving fluids to a cat with heart
        disease.
        > My own vet gave my sweet Quincy fluids, twice, even tho I told them
        he had
        > previously been diagnosed with a heart murmur by my previous vet.
        Three
        > different vets at my clinic listened and did not hear it. Looking
        back, they
        > did not take much time to listen, either. In fact, one said later,
        he was
        > purring so loud, she could not hear anything-but at the time, she
        said he did
        > NOT have a murmur. Turns out his murmur was at least a grade 4,
        which is
        > pretty easy to hear. At the time, Quincy had been sick, with
        classic
        > symptoms of a heart problem, altho I myself did not know that at
        the time,
        > including a blood clot in his leg (which the vet said was a
        sprained knee),
        > and the vet thought, altho he was not very dehydrated, fluids might
        make him
        > feel better. I knew from reading emails lists that that was not a
        good idea
        > if a heart problem was present. So, I warned them about the
        murmur, and they
        > ignored me. The second time they gave him fluids, and an enema, he
        went into
        > congestive heart failure, which the cardiologist we were FINALLY
        sent to,
        > said was caused by the fluids. Quincy's suffering and eventual
        death could
        > have been prevented, had my vets seen that his symptoms added up to
        a heart
        > problem, and had they referred us to a specialist a week or two
        sooner. By
        > the time we got to one, they said he was not in too bad of shape
        and would
        > recover, but he was too weak from fighting to stay alive without
        eating for
        > so long. His illness and death still haunts me as I know he
        suffered
        > needlessly. At the vet school where Quincy was finally treated,
        they said
        > fluids need to be given very carefully, and they do them as an IV
        drip, where
        > about 1 drop at a time goes in, and the cat is monitored
        carefully. I would
        > not give fluids to a cat with a heart condition, unless a
        cardiologist was
        > consulted.
        >
        > Heidi

        Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I am very sorry about
        Quincy. Blue has been seen by a specialist, but not in
        Cardiology...his HCM is pretty severe, very little area left for the
        blood to flow through...his CRF is moderate? Bun 59, & Crea 3.61. If
        my memory serves me right, it has been said that you can get by
        without sub-Q's until the Crea reaches the 4's, so I won't even
        consider it at this point, & I will have my specialist consult with a
        cardiologist, before I ever would! He is still drinking quite a bit,
        & if I could just get him to eat more & stop losing weight, I would
        be a little more comfortable...

        Eve
      • CatWoman
        ... Muffin is CRF and, presumably, HCM (he was born with a congenital heart problem - enlargement - and thickened walls in the interior). At this point, he s
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
          Bill & Linda Fischbach wrote:
          >
          > Hi Eva,
          >
          > Our Mittens has CRF and HCM. He hasn't started sub-qs yet, but it
          > may be soon. (We lost a cat to CRF in 2000, so we know how to do
          > them.) We are concerned about giving fluids with the heart problem.

          Muffin is CRF and, presumably, HCM (he was born with a congenital
          heart problem - enlargement - and thickened walls in the interior).

          At this point, he's drinking water and does not feel dehydrated,
          so we're not doing SubCu - yet.

          Diana
        • elevine41
          ... has ... against ... into ... balancing act but it can be ... treated with proper ... put on Diltiazem. ... 6 months. ... early signs of fluid ... hips as
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
            --- In feline-heart@y..., Anyes Moscrip <anyes@i...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > elevine41 wrote:
            >
            > > Hi Everyone,
            > >
            > > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a cat that also
            has
            > > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks stacked
            against
            > > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to improve his
            > > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has left, but I am
            > > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of sending him
            into
            > > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure from me...
            >
            > Yes, we managed CRF, HCM, and high blood pressure. It is a
            balancing act but it can be
            > done.
            >
            > The first thing is to make sure that the heart condition is being
            treated with proper
            > medication. My kitty could not handle -any- subq's prior to being
            put on Diltiazem.
            > While on Diltiazem, she could process 80 to 120cc of fluids/day for
            6 months.
            > We also made sure to withhold fluids for 24hrs anytime she showed
            early signs of fluid
            > build up. These included deliberate, slower breaths using lower
            hips as bellows,
            > decrease in appetite with gain weight, more lethargic behaviour,
            lower body
            > temperature. The changes were very subtle. We administered
            Dandelion extract twice a
            > day for prevention of fluid build up, 4 times a day to stop early
            build up. We were
            > able to avoid ER trips for those 6 months. Stress is not good for
            heart patients, and
            > invariably Lucie would go into full congestive heart failure if we
            had to go to the
            > ER. So it is important to try to manage this at home before you
            get to a crisis
            > point. I recommend you get a stethoscope and learn what your
            cat's normal heart beat
            > sounds like, so that when the heartbeat becomes muffled you know
            the difference.
            >
            > The treatment was easier to manage once we realized we had a heart
            patient with kidney
            > problems, not the other way around. After all, it is really a moot
            point how good the
            > kidney values are if the heart stops beating. This is one where
            the heart takes
            > precedence over all else and our decisions day to day were based on
            that.
            >
            > Finally, you have to be flexible with your treatment and take it
            day by day. You know
            > your cat better than anyone else and you learn to read his body
            language on a daily
            > basis so that you can evaluate how much fluid to give. Our vet and
            IM specialist told
            > us to use our best judgment as they realized that we always knew
            what Lucie could
            > handle on any given day, better than they could. It was a team
            effort. They trusted
            > us and we trusted them. It is important that you find vets who
            will work with you.
            >
            > I hope this helps,
            > Anyes and the girls

            Anyes,

            Yes, very informative....however makes me even more fearful, as I
            live in a small town, my regular vet is not that knowledgeable about
            Blue's conditions, & the specialist is 2 1/2 hours away from me, a
            very stressful trip for Blue...so I guess I'm better off using my
            best judgement & taking him as far as I can on my own, & by email
            back & forth with the specialist... Thanks for the info.

            Eve
          • elevine41
            ... Valerie, You definetly know what I m going through! Blue is only 11, will be 12 in April, if I can get him there... He was diagnosed with the CRF & HCM in
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
              --- In feline-heart@y..., "pfeifferv2001" <valeriepfeiffer@h...>
              wrote:
              > Dear Eve,
              >
              > Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.
              >
              > A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
              > was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
              > heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.
              >
              > He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
              > tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.
              >
              > He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
              > the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
              > with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.
              >
              > I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
              > ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.
              >
              > I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)
              >
              > Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe

              Valerie,

              You definetly know what I'm going through! Blue is only 11, will be
              12 in April, if I can get him there... He was diagnosed with the CRF
              & HCM in June of this last year. He takes 1 5mg of Lotensin a day,
              along with Pepcid AC, Cyproheptadine, & Pet-Tinic, as his last blood
              work showed that he was slightly anemic. His neuropathy from the
              diabetes is quite bad, he can barely walk...it hurts me so bad to see
              him like this, but he still comes to me to "talk" & to get his daily
              brushing, & likes to watch the birds outside, so I don't feel like
              he's given up yet...now if I can just come up with a way to make him
              feel a little "perkier", I would be happy.

              Eve
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