Re: Heart Disease & sub-Q fluids
- Dear Eve,
Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.
A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.
He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.
He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.
I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.
I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)
Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe
- --- In feline-heart@y..., JettawayFCRs@a... wrote:
> I would be very concerned about giving fluids to a cat with heartdisease.
> My own vet gave my sweet Quincy fluids, twice, even tho I told themhe had
> previously been diagnosed with a heart murmur by my previous vet.Three
> different vets at my clinic listened and did not hear it. Lookingback, they
> did not take much time to listen, either. In fact, one said later,he was
> purring so loud, she could not hear anything-but at the time, shesaid he did
> NOT have a murmur. Turns out his murmur was at least a grade 4,which is
> pretty easy to hear. At the time, Quincy had been sick, withclassic
> symptoms of a heart problem, altho I myself did not know that atthe time,
> including a blood clot in his leg (which the vet said was asprained knee),
> and the vet thought, altho he was not very dehydrated, fluids mightmake him
> feel better. I knew from reading emails lists that that was not agood idea
> if a heart problem was present. So, I warned them about themurmur, and they
> ignored me. The second time they gave him fluids, and an enema, hewent into
> congestive heart failure, which the cardiologist we were FINALLYsent to,
> said was caused by the fluids. Quincy's suffering and eventualdeath could
> have been prevented, had my vets seen that his symptoms added up toa heart
> problem, and had they referred us to a specialist a week or twosooner. By
> the time we got to one, they said he was not in too bad of shapeand would
> recover, but he was too weak from fighting to stay alive withouteating for
> so long. His illness and death still haunts me as I know hesuffered
> needlessly. At the vet school where Quincy was finally treated,they said
> fluids need to be given very carefully, and they do them as an IVdrip, where
> about 1 drop at a time goes in, and the cat is monitoredcarefully. I would
> not give fluids to a cat with a heart condition, unless acardiologist was
> consulted.Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I am very sorry about
Quincy. Blue has been seen by a specialist, but not in
Cardiology...his HCM is pretty severe, very little area left for the
blood to flow through...his CRF is moderate? Bun 59, & Crea 3.61. If
my memory serves me right, it has been said that you can get by
without sub-Q's until the Crea reaches the 4's, so I won't even
consider it at this point, & I will have my specialist consult with a
cardiologist, before I ever would! He is still drinking quite a bit,
& if I could just get him to eat more & stop losing weight, I would
be a little more comfortable...
- Bill & Linda Fischbach wrote:
>Muffin is CRF and, presumably, HCM (he was born with a congenital
> Hi Eva,
> Our Mittens has CRF and HCM. He hasn't started sub-qs yet, but it
> may be soon. (We lost a cat to CRF in 2000, so we know how to do
> them.) We are concerned about giving fluids with the heart problem.
heart problem - enlargement - and thickened walls in the interior).
At this point, he's drinking water and does not feel dehydrated,
so we're not doing SubCu - yet.
- --- In feline-heart@y..., Anyes Moscrip <anyes@i...> wrote:
> elevine41 wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a cat that also
> > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks stackedagainst
> > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to improve hisinto
> > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has left, but I am
> > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of sending him
> > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure from me...balancing act but it can be
> Yes, we managed CRF, HCM, and high blood pressure. It is a
> done.treated with proper
> The first thing is to make sure that the heart condition is being
> medication. My kitty could not handle -any- subq's prior to beingput on Diltiazem.
> While on Diltiazem, she could process 80 to 120cc of fluids/day for6 months.
> We also made sure to withhold fluids for 24hrs anytime she showedearly signs of fluid
> build up. These included deliberate, slower breaths using lowerhips as bellows,
> decrease in appetite with gain weight, more lethargic behaviour,lower body
> temperature. The changes were very subtle. We administeredDandelion extract twice a
> day for prevention of fluid build up, 4 times a day to stop earlybuild up. We were
> able to avoid ER trips for those 6 months. Stress is not good forheart patients, and
> invariably Lucie would go into full congestive heart failure if wehad to go to the
> ER. So it is important to try to manage this at home before youget to a crisis
> point. I recommend you get a stethoscope and learn what yourcat's normal heart beat
> sounds like, so that when the heartbeat becomes muffled you knowthe difference.
>patient with kidney
> The treatment was easier to manage once we realized we had a heart
> problems, not the other way around. After all, it is really a mootpoint how good the
> kidney values are if the heart stops beating. This is one wherethe heart takes
> precedence over all else and our decisions day to day were based onthat.
>day by day. You know
> Finally, you have to be flexible with your treatment and take it
> your cat better than anyone else and you learn to read his bodylanguage on a daily
> basis so that you can evaluate how much fluid to give. Our vet andIM specialist told
> us to use our best judgment as they realized that we always knewwhat Lucie could
> handle on any given day, better than they could. It was a teameffort. They trusted
> us and we trusted them. It is important that you find vets whowill work with you.
> I hope this helps,
> Anyes and the girls
Yes, very informative....however makes me even more fearful, as I
live in a small town, my regular vet is not that knowledgeable about
Blue's conditions, & the specialist is 2 1/2 hours away from me, a
very stressful trip for Blue...so I guess I'm better off using my
best judgement & taking him as far as I can on my own, & by email
back & forth with the specialist... Thanks for the info.
- --- In feline-heart@y..., "pfeifferv2001" <valeriepfeiffer@h...>
> Dear Eve,Valerie,
> Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.
> A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
> was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
> heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.
> He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
> tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.
> He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
> the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
> with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.
> I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
> ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.
> I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)
> Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe
You definetly know what I'm going through! Blue is only 11, will be
12 in April, if I can get him there... He was diagnosed with the CRF
& HCM in June of this last year. He takes 1 5mg of Lotensin a day,
along with Pepcid AC, Cyproheptadine, & Pet-Tinic, as his last blood
work showed that he was slightly anemic. His neuropathy from the
diabetes is quite bad, he can barely walk...it hurts me so bad to see
him like this, but he still comes to me to "talk" & to get his daily
brushing, & likes to watch the birds outside, so I don't feel like
he's given up yet...now if I can just come up with a way to make him
feel a little "perkier", I would be happy.