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Re: [feline-heart] Heart Disease & sub-Q fluids

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  • shelley seidman
    Hi Eve..i have been dealing with the same problem with Gloria for the last 2 years..she has HCM,CRF,kidney stones, 2 types of bladder stones, IBD AND anemia. .
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
      Hi Eve..i have been dealing with the same problem with
      Gloria for the last 2 years..she has HCM,CRF,kidney
      stones, 2 types of bladder stones, IBD AND anemia. .
      What is good for one is bad for the next. I am on a
      roller coaster, but she is still here, enjoys a catnp
      toy, loves to be brushed. I wonder often if what i am
      doing is fair to her but i think she'll let me know
      when sh's had enough. I started puting ice cubes in
      Gloria's water..she drinks more, seems to be less
      dehydrated and i give fluids less often. I wish you
      and your baby luck and i would be happy to answer any
      questions you may have. I am not a medical expert,
      just feel like one!!
      Shelley.
      --- elevine41 <EveV@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Everyone,
      >
      > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a
      > cat that also has
      > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks
      > stacked against
      > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to
      > improve his
      > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has
      > left, but I am
      > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of
      > sending him into
      > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure
      > from me...
      >
      > Eve & Blue Boy
      >
      >


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    • Bill & Linda Fischbach
      Hi Eva, Our Mittens has CRF and HCM. He hasn t started sub-qs yet, but it may be soon. (We lost a cat to CRF in 2000, so we know how to do them.) We
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
        Hi Eva,

        Our Mittens has CRF and HCM. He hasn't started sub-qs yet, but it may be
        soon. (We lost a cat to CRF in 2000, so we know how to do them.) We
        are concerned about giving fluids with the heart problem.

        Linda


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "elevine41" <EveV@...>
        To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 10:20 AM
        Subject: [feline-heart] Heart Disease & sub-Q fluids


        >
        > Hi Everyone,
        >
        > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a cat that also has
        > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks stacked against
        > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to improve his
        > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has left, but I am
        > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of sending him into
        > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure from me...
        >
        > Eve & Blue Boy
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • JettawayFCRs@aol.com
        I would be very concerned about giving fluids to a cat with heart disease. My own vet gave my sweet Quincy fluids, twice, even tho I told them he had
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
          I would be very concerned about giving fluids to a cat with heart disease.
          My own vet gave my sweet Quincy fluids, twice, even tho I told them he had
          previously been diagnosed with a heart murmur by my previous vet. Three
          different vets at my clinic listened and did not hear it. Looking back, they
          did not take much time to listen, either. In fact, one said later, he was
          purring so loud, she could not hear anything-but at the time, she said he did
          NOT have a murmur. Turns out his murmur was at least a grade 4, which is
          pretty easy to hear. At the time, Quincy had been sick, with classic
          symptoms of a heart problem, altho I myself did not know that at the time,
          including a blood clot in his leg (which the vet said was a sprained knee),
          and the vet thought, altho he was not very dehydrated, fluids might make him
          feel better. I knew from reading emails lists that that was not a good idea
          if a heart problem was present. So, I warned them about the murmur, and they
          ignored me. The second time they gave him fluids, and an enema, he went into
          congestive heart failure, which the cardiologist we were FINALLY sent to,
          said was caused by the fluids. Quincy's suffering and eventual death could
          have been prevented, had my vets seen that his symptoms added up to a heart
          problem, and had they referred us to a specialist a week or two sooner. By
          the time we got to one, they said he was not in too bad of shape and would
          recover, but he was too weak from fighting to stay alive without eating for
          so long. His illness and death still haunts me as I know he suffered
          needlessly. At the vet school where Quincy was finally treated, they said
          fluids need to be given very carefully, and they do them as an IV drip, where
          about 1 drop at a time goes in, and the cat is monitored carefully. I would
          not give fluids to a cat with a heart condition, unless a cardiologist was
          consulted.

          Heidi
        • Anyes Moscrip
          ... Yes, we managed CRF, HCM, and high blood pressure. It is a balancing act but it can be done. The first thing is to make sure that the heart condition is
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
            elevine41 wrote:

            > Hi Everyone,
            >
            > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a cat that also has
            > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks stacked against
            > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to improve his
            > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has left, but I am
            > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of sending him into
            > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure from me...

            Yes, we managed CRF, HCM, and high blood pressure. It is a balancing act but it can be
            done.

            The first thing is to make sure that the heart condition is being treated with proper
            medication. My kitty could not handle -any- subq's prior to being put on Diltiazem.
            While on Diltiazem, she could process 80 to 120cc of fluids/day for 6 months.
            We also made sure to withhold fluids for 24hrs anytime she showed early signs of fluid
            build up. These included deliberate, slower breaths using lower hips as bellows,
            decrease in appetite with gain weight, more lethargic behaviour, lower body
            temperature. The changes were very subtle. We administered Dandelion extract twice a
            day for prevention of fluid build up, 4 times a day to stop early build up. We were
            able to avoid ER trips for those 6 months. Stress is not good for heart patients, and
            invariably Lucie would go into full congestive heart failure if we had to go to the
            ER. So it is important to try to manage this at home before you get to a crisis
            point. I recommend you get a stethoscope and learn what your cat's normal heart beat
            sounds like, so that when the heartbeat becomes muffled you know the difference.

            The treatment was easier to manage once we realized we had a heart patient with kidney
            problems, not the other way around. After all, it is really a moot point how good the
            kidney values are if the heart stops beating. This is one where the heart takes
            precedence over all else and our decisions day to day were based on that.

            Finally, you have to be flexible with your treatment and take it day by day. You know
            your cat better than anyone else and you learn to read his body language on a daily
            basis so that you can evaluate how much fluid to give. Our vet and IM specialist told
            us to use our best judgment as they realized that we always knew what Lucie could
            handle on any given day, better than they could. It was a team effort. They trusted
            us and we trusted them. It is important that you find vets who will work with you.

            I hope this helps,
            Anyes and the girls
          • pfeifferv2001
            Dear Eve, Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF. A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk. was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
              Dear Eve,

              Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.

              A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
              was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
              heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.

              He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
              tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.

              He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
              the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
              with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.

              I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
              ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.

              I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)

              Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe
            • elevine41
              ... disease. ... he had ... Three ... back, they ... he was ... said he did ... which is ... classic ... the time, ... sprained knee), ... make him ... good
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
                --- In feline-heart@y..., JettawayFCRs@a... wrote:
                > I would be very concerned about giving fluids to a cat with heart
                disease.
                > My own vet gave my sweet Quincy fluids, twice, even tho I told them
                he had
                > previously been diagnosed with a heart murmur by my previous vet.
                Three
                > different vets at my clinic listened and did not hear it. Looking
                back, they
                > did not take much time to listen, either. In fact, one said later,
                he was
                > purring so loud, she could not hear anything-but at the time, she
                said he did
                > NOT have a murmur. Turns out his murmur was at least a grade 4,
                which is
                > pretty easy to hear. At the time, Quincy had been sick, with
                classic
                > symptoms of a heart problem, altho I myself did not know that at
                the time,
                > including a blood clot in his leg (which the vet said was a
                sprained knee),
                > and the vet thought, altho he was not very dehydrated, fluids might
                make him
                > feel better. I knew from reading emails lists that that was not a
                good idea
                > if a heart problem was present. So, I warned them about the
                murmur, and they
                > ignored me. The second time they gave him fluids, and an enema, he
                went into
                > congestive heart failure, which the cardiologist we were FINALLY
                sent to,
                > said was caused by the fluids. Quincy's suffering and eventual
                death could
                > have been prevented, had my vets seen that his symptoms added up to
                a heart
                > problem, and had they referred us to a specialist a week or two
                sooner. By
                > the time we got to one, they said he was not in too bad of shape
                and would
                > recover, but he was too weak from fighting to stay alive without
                eating for
                > so long. His illness and death still haunts me as I know he
                suffered
                > needlessly. At the vet school where Quincy was finally treated,
                they said
                > fluids need to be given very carefully, and they do them as an IV
                drip, where
                > about 1 drop at a time goes in, and the cat is monitored
                carefully. I would
                > not give fluids to a cat with a heart condition, unless a
                cardiologist was
                > consulted.
                >
                > Heidi

                Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I am very sorry about
                Quincy. Blue has been seen by a specialist, but not in
                Cardiology...his HCM is pretty severe, very little area left for the
                blood to flow through...his CRF is moderate? Bun 59, & Crea 3.61. If
                my memory serves me right, it has been said that you can get by
                without sub-Q's until the Crea reaches the 4's, so I won't even
                consider it at this point, & I will have my specialist consult with a
                cardiologist, before I ever would! He is still drinking quite a bit,
                & if I could just get him to eat more & stop losing weight, I would
                be a little more comfortable...

                Eve
              • CatWoman
                ... Muffin is CRF and, presumably, HCM (he was born with a congenital heart problem - enlargement - and thickened walls in the interior). At this point, he s
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
                  Bill & Linda Fischbach wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Eva,
                  >
                  > Our Mittens has CRF and HCM. He hasn't started sub-qs yet, but it
                  > may be soon. (We lost a cat to CRF in 2000, so we know how to do
                  > them.) We are concerned about giving fluids with the heart problem.

                  Muffin is CRF and, presumably, HCM (he was born with a congenital
                  heart problem - enlargement - and thickened walls in the interior).

                  At this point, he's drinking water and does not feel dehydrated,
                  so we're not doing SubCu - yet.

                  Diana
                • elevine41
                  ... has ... against ... into ... balancing act but it can be ... treated with proper ... put on Diltiazem. ... 6 months. ... early signs of fluid ... hips as
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
                    --- In feline-heart@y..., Anyes Moscrip <anyes@i...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > elevine41 wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hi Everyone,
                    > >
                    > > I was just wondering if anyone on this list has a cat that also
                    has
                    > > CRF & is giving sub-Q fluids? Blue Boy has the decks stacked
                    against
                    > > him, with Diabetes, CRF & HCM, & I would so like to improve his
                    > > quality of life for whatever amount of time he has left, but I am
                    > > terribly afraid to start him on fluids, for fear of sending him
                    into
                    > > Congestive heart failure, & hastening his departure from me...
                    >
                    > Yes, we managed CRF, HCM, and high blood pressure. It is a
                    balancing act but it can be
                    > done.
                    >
                    > The first thing is to make sure that the heart condition is being
                    treated with proper
                    > medication. My kitty could not handle -any- subq's prior to being
                    put on Diltiazem.
                    > While on Diltiazem, she could process 80 to 120cc of fluids/day for
                    6 months.
                    > We also made sure to withhold fluids for 24hrs anytime she showed
                    early signs of fluid
                    > build up. These included deliberate, slower breaths using lower
                    hips as bellows,
                    > decrease in appetite with gain weight, more lethargic behaviour,
                    lower body
                    > temperature. The changes were very subtle. We administered
                    Dandelion extract twice a
                    > day for prevention of fluid build up, 4 times a day to stop early
                    build up. We were
                    > able to avoid ER trips for those 6 months. Stress is not good for
                    heart patients, and
                    > invariably Lucie would go into full congestive heart failure if we
                    had to go to the
                    > ER. So it is important to try to manage this at home before you
                    get to a crisis
                    > point. I recommend you get a stethoscope and learn what your
                    cat's normal heart beat
                    > sounds like, so that when the heartbeat becomes muffled you know
                    the difference.
                    >
                    > The treatment was easier to manage once we realized we had a heart
                    patient with kidney
                    > problems, not the other way around. After all, it is really a moot
                    point how good the
                    > kidney values are if the heart stops beating. This is one where
                    the heart takes
                    > precedence over all else and our decisions day to day were based on
                    that.
                    >
                    > Finally, you have to be flexible with your treatment and take it
                    day by day. You know
                    > your cat better than anyone else and you learn to read his body
                    language on a daily
                    > basis so that you can evaluate how much fluid to give. Our vet and
                    IM specialist told
                    > us to use our best judgment as they realized that we always knew
                    what Lucie could
                    > handle on any given day, better than they could. It was a team
                    effort. They trusted
                    > us and we trusted them. It is important that you find vets who
                    will work with you.
                    >
                    > I hope this helps,
                    > Anyes and the girls

                    Anyes,

                    Yes, very informative....however makes me even more fearful, as I
                    live in a small town, my regular vet is not that knowledgeable about
                    Blue's conditions, & the specialist is 2 1/2 hours away from me, a
                    very stressful trip for Blue...so I guess I'm better off using my
                    best judgement & taking him as far as I can on my own, & by email
                    back & forth with the specialist... Thanks for the info.

                    Eve
                  • elevine41
                    ... Valerie, You definetly know what I m going through! Blue is only 11, will be 12 in April, if I can get him there... He was diagnosed with the CRF & HCM in
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 1, 2002
                      --- In feline-heart@y..., "pfeifferv2001" <valeriepfeiffer@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > Dear Eve,
                      >
                      > Roscoe is diabetic, severe HCM and CRF.
                      >
                      > A month ago he had blood clot in his leg and was unable to walk.
                      > was 10% dehydrated and ultrasound showed a little fluid around his
                      > heart. - A mess! Heart problems were not diagnosed prior to this.
                      >
                      > He is now on 30 mg. diltiazem per day and vet thought he could
                      > tolerate 60 cc. sub-Q per day.
                      >
                      > He has definitely improved. Clot has dissipated,he can walk around
                      > the garden quite easily (sometimes a bit shakily) He is very alert
                      > with a good appetite and his coat has improved tremendously.
                      >
                      > I am not monitoring as closely as Anyes, but will go for another
                      > ultrasound tomorrow. That will show how he is handling the fluids.
                      >
                      > I'll post results. ( He is also quite old - almost 19)
                      >
                      > Hope this helps, Valerie and Roscoe

                      Valerie,

                      You definetly know what I'm going through! Blue is only 11, will be
                      12 in April, if I can get him there... He was diagnosed with the CRF
                      & HCM in June of this last year. He takes 1 5mg of Lotensin a day,
                      along with Pepcid AC, Cyproheptadine, & Pet-Tinic, as his last blood
                      work showed that he was slightly anemic. His neuropathy from the
                      diabetes is quite bad, he can barely walk...it hurts me so bad to see
                      him like this, but he still comes to me to "talk" & to get his daily
                      brushing, & likes to watch the birds outside, so I don't feel like
                      he's given up yet...now if I can just come up with a way to make him
                      feel a little "perkier", I would be happy.

                      Eve
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