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Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet

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  • atlasnthor
    I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor s home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report: I spent about a half hour giving the vet
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
      I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:

      I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.

      She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means

      No acupuncture.

      Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?

      Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor
    • Carol
      I have all my guys on a raw diet. Misty, who will be 21 in May, got so much better on her raw diet. Her kidney issues got better, she felt better, just all
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
        I have all my guys on a raw diet. Misty, who will be 21 in May, got so much better on her raw diet. Her kidney issues got better, she felt better, just all around.

        The diets I use are Rad Cat and Primal. They're frozen raw diets. I take out the night before what I need for the day, thaw in the fridge and when I feed it to them, I pour hot water over it to warm it up.

        When you switch to raw, you have to do it very slowly. Most cats raised on canned or dry food don't like it, so you have to introduce it with their current foods slowly, small amounts over the course of a few weeks before you completely change them over.

        Carol and the gang
















        -----Original Message-----
        From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
        To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:51 pm
        Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet





        I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:

        I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.

        She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means

        No acupuncture.

        Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?

        Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • atlasnthor
        Thanks Carol, The vet suggested the same thing, introduce slowly and pour warm water. Fortunately Thor eats just about anything and will try to steal my
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
          Thanks Carol,

          The vet suggested the same thing, introduce slowly and pour warm water. Fortunately Thor eats just about anything and will try to steal my oatmeal, peas...even bagels. So hopefully he'll come around.

          Leah Atlas Einstein and baby Thor

          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Carol <carolroar@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have all my guys on a raw diet. Misty, who will be 21 in May, got so much better on her raw diet. Her kidney issues got better, she felt better, just all around.
          >
          > The diets I use are Rad Cat and Primal. They're frozen raw diets. I take out the night before what I need for the day, thaw in the fridge and when I feed it to them, I pour hot water over it to warm it up.
          >
          > When you switch to raw, you have to do it very slowly. Most cats raised on canned or dry food don't like it, so you have to introduce it with their current foods slowly, small amounts over the course of a few weeks before you completely change them over.
          >
          > Carol and the gang
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
          > To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:51 pm
          > Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:
          >
          > I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.
          >
          > She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means
          >
          > No acupuncture.
          >
          > Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?
          >
          > Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Cathy Mack
          Hi there, I m feeding a raw diet and have been for several years now. I feed commercially made, both Felines Pride and RadCat. My cats thrive on it! I don t
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
            Hi there,

            I'm feeding a raw diet and have been for several years now. I feed commercially
            made, both Felines Pride and RadCat. My cats thrive on it! I don't supplement
            with any other foods or oils or vitamins. When we adopted our Siberian kittens
            4 years ago, they took to it right away without any hesitation. Our older boy
            aka the kibble addict took six weeks to transition over completely. I started
            out with just a small amount at first, still giving him the kibble on the same
            plate. I gradually changed the amounts until one day he just ate the raw food,
            and not the kibble. So he's 13 years old now and looks absolutely beautiful, no
            health problems and plays like a kitten. The kittens have grown into monsters!

            I heat up a big pie plate in the microwave, and then add the frozen food in to
            warm it up. I don't heat or microwave the frozen food however.

            If you live around any Pet Food Express stores, you can buy 4 tubs of RadCat and
            get one free. That really helps with the cost. But I also found that my cats
            eat less in food weight on the raw food than the canned, plus with no constant
            vet bills it really is less expensive.

            Good luck with the raw food, I'm sure you'll do fine (and so will Thor!).

            Cathy




            ________________________________
            From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, March 28, 2012 1:51:07 PM
            Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


            I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the
            holistic vet..so here is the report:

            I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness,
            diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead
            of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of
            the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ
            meat for the heart.

            She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the
            herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty
            much means


            No acupuncture.

            Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?

            Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Patti Thomas
            I think it s excellent advice.  As a breeder I feed all of my cats raw diet, and have for about 7 years, with very good success.  I add a moderate amount of
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
              I think it's excellent advice.  As a breeder I feed all of my cats raw diet, and have for about 7 years, with very good success.  I add a moderate amount of organ meat and also add the salmon oil.  I do add a pre mixed vitamin supplement designed specifically for feline raw diet.   

              Noticeable changes with raw diet....

              less water consumption, so less stress on kidneys
              less poop
              less smelly poop
              excellent coat and skin glow
              no loose stools
              no over weight  issues
              rare vomiting and diarrhea
              overall improved health and vitality

              And, contrary to popular myth.... I have yet to have my first cat or kitten diagnosed with a parasite issue.   Paws crossed for continued success.  

              Patti


              ________________________________
              From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:51 PM
              Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


               
              I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:

              I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.

              She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means

              No acupuncture.

              Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?

              Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • atlasnthor
              Patti: Do you make your own food? I m looking at that too, but am a little worried about the sanitary issues. I noticed some of the store brands test for
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 28, 2012
                Patti:

                Do you make your own food? I'm looking at that too, but am a little worried about the sanitary issues. I noticed some of the store brands test for eColi.

                Leah, Atlas, Einstein and baby Thor

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                >
                > I think it's excellent advice.  As a breeder I feed all of my cats raw diet, and have for about 7 years, with very good success.  I add a moderate amount of organ meat and also add the salmon oil.  I do add a pre mixed vitamin supplement designed specifically for feline raw diet.   
                >
                > Noticeable changes with raw diet....
                >
                > less water consumption, so less stress on kidneys
                > less poop
                > less smelly poop
                > excellent coat and skin glow
                > no loose stools
                > no over weight  issues
                > rare vomiting and diarrhea
                > overall improved health and vitality
                >
                > And, contrary to popular myth.... I have yet to have my first cat or kitten diagnosed with a parasite issue.   Paws crossed for continued success.  
                >
                > Patti
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
                > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:51 PM
                > Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet
                >
                >
                >  
                > I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:
                >
                > I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.
                >
                > She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means
                >
                > No acupuncture.
                >
                > Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?
                >
                > Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Leo Wempu
                Sorry I know this is off topic, but do you have any references that state normal water consumption (i.e. cat drinking on its own) stresses the kidneys? I ve
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                  Sorry I know this is off topic, but do you have any references that state normal water consumption (i.e. cat drinking on its own) stresses the kidneys? I've never heard of such a thing.

                  Thanks, Henna & Angel Leo



                  ________________________________
                  From: Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...>
                  To: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>; "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:04 AM
                  Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet



                  Noticeable changes with raw diet....

                  less water consumption, so less stress on kidneys


                  Patti




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patti Thomas
                  Yes, we make our own.  But we also order our beef from a commercially owned producer.  There should be no reason for concern if there is careful handling of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                    Yes, we make our own.  But we also order our beef from a commercially owned producer.  There should be no reason for concern if there is careful handling of meat. 

                     I don't know about the store brands testing for eColi.  All raw meat has traces of some bacteria's, but a cats system is designed so that small trace amounts do not adversely affect them.  In fact, the human gut as well, has trace amounts of eColi present.  Our immune systems respond accordingly and it does not cause illness.

                    Patti


                    ________________________________
                    From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:15 AM
                    Subject: [FH] Re: Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                     
                    Patti:

                    Do you make your own food? I'm looking at that too, but am a little worried about the sanitary issues. I noticed some of the store brands test for eColi.

                    Leah, Atlas, Einstein and baby Thor

                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think it's excellent advice.  As a breeder I feed all of my cats raw diet, and have for about 7 years, with very good success.  I add a moderate amount of organ meat and also add the salmon oil.  I do add a pre mixed vitamin supplement designed specifically for feline raw diet.   
                    >
                    > Noticeable changes with raw diet....
                    >
                    > less water consumption, so less stress on kidneys
                    > less poop
                    > less smelly poop
                    > excellent coat and skin glow
                    > no loose stools
                    > no over weight  issues
                    > rare vomiting and diarrhea
                    > overall improved health and vitality
                    >
                    > And, contrary to popular myth.... I have yet to have my first cat or kitten diagnosed with a parasite issue.   Paws crossed for continued success.  
                    >
                    > Patti
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: atlasnthor <atlasnthor@...>
                    > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:51 PM
                    > Subject: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    > I know some of you were interested in hearing about Thor's home visit with the holistic vet..so here is the report:
                    >
                    > I spent about a half hour giving the vet Thor's story, first signs of illness, diagnoses, temperament, etc. She made a very strong case for a raw diet instead of recommending supplements (besides fish oil). She will be sending me a list of the best store bought and recipes. She feels the meal should have a lot of organ meat for the heart.
                    >
                    > She is also putting together an herbal mix for Thor. he is very hot and the herbs should help cool him down. Hot is a chinese medicine term....but it pretty much means
                    >
                    > No acupuncture.
                    >
                    > Has anyone else moved to a raw diet?
                    >
                    > Leah, Atlas, einstein and baby Thor
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Patti Thomas
                    A cat s normal prey is ~70% water.  Canned food is ~78% water. Dry food is ~5-10% water.  Cats have a low thirst drive and do not make up the deficit at
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                      "A cat's normal prey is ~70% water.  Canned food is ~78% water. Dry food is ~5-10% water.  Cats have a low thirst drive and do not make up the deficit at the water bowl.  They are designed to get water with their food. It makes absolutely no sense to feed dry food to any cat - especially one with urinary tract problems". 
                       Lisa A Peirson, DVM
                      Dry foods take the water away from the cats' system causing them to drink even more water. Over time, this back and forth dehydrating and drinking of water will put a strain on their kidneys. This long term off and on again dehydration is a possible cause of chronic renal failure in cats.
                      There has been extremely few, if any, reports of a cat developing FUS as a result of being on a raw diet.  Part of the reason for this is due to the well known fact that raw meat diets result in acid urine output and grain-based diets result in alkaline urine production.  Acid urine is not a favorable medium for struvite crystals to form, so even if a particular cat may be predisposed to FUS, if the urine is kept acidic, the probability of crystals forming is low.  Plus,the natural juices and water content of the raw meat diet insures some natural fluid intake, unlike dry cereal-based cat foods which dehydrate the cats, thus making the cat drink water all the time.

                      Patti

                      From: Leo Wempu <leowempu@...>

                      To: Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...>
                      Cc: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:33 AM
                      Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                      Sorry I know this is off topic, but do you have any references that state normal water consumption (i.e. cat drinking on its own) stresses the kidneys? I've never heard of such a thing.

                      Thanks, Henna & Angel Leo

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • JudithG
                      Check out the RawPaws egroup. They are the experts. Judith
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                        Check out the RawPaws egroup. They are the experts.

                        Judith
                      • Leo Wempu
                        The way I read Lisa A Peirson s quote, it doesn t say drinking water stresses the kidneys. It says exactly the opposite. She claims that cats on dry food are
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                          The way I read Lisa A Peirson's quote, it doesn't say drinking water stresses the kidneys. It says exactly the opposite. She claims that cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated, because they do not drink enough to compensate for the smaller amount of water in their food. Logically, if they did drink enough, there'd be no problem in that respect. It remains to be proved that cats on dry food do not in fact drink enough and are chronically dehydrated.

                          I understand the logic behind this, although hard evidence is lacking.

                          Who wrote the second quote? It on the contarary claims that cats on dry food do in fact drink a lot and that they'd be dehydrated and well hydrated in turn, which would somehow strain the kidneys. How this would happen remains a mystery. Would they not drink at all for a few days and then drink "too much"? Sounds weird. I do not understand the logic behind this. The whole thing sounds like a sales pitch anyway.

                          I'm not a particular fan of feeding a dry diet, but I like to see substantiated claims (preferably research, not opinions), when people talk of things like "this and that causes kidney disease".

                          Sorry for the OT post, but I was genuinely baffled.

                          Henna



                          ________________________________
                          From: Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...>
                          To:
                          Cc: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                           


                          "A cat's normal prey is ~70% water.  Canned food is ~78% water. Dry food is ~5-10% water.  Cats have a low thirst drive and do not make up the deficit at the water bowl.  They are designed to get water with their food. It makes absolutely no sense to feed dry food to any cat - especially one with urinary tract problems". 
                           Lisa A Peirson, DVM
                          Dry foods take the water away from the cats' system causing them to drink even more water. Over time, this back and forth dehydrating and drinking of water will put a strain on their kidneys. This long term off and on again dehydration is a possible cause of chronic renal failure in cats.
                          There has been extremely few, if any, reports of a cat developing FUS as a result of being on a raw diet.  Part of the reason for this is due to the well known fact that raw meat diets result in acid urine output and grain-based diets result in alkaline urine production.  Acid urine is not a favorable medium for struvite crystals to form, so even if a particular cat may be predisposed to FUS, if the urine is kept acidic, the probability of crystals forming is low.  Plus,the natural juices and water content of the raw meat diet insures some natural fluid intake, unlike dry cereal-based cat foods which dehydrate the cats, thus making the cat drink water all the time.

                          Patti





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Patti Thomas
                          Any time the body gets dehydrated, it is in a compromised state.  Therefore, dry foods that dehydrate the body requiring it to be rehydrated, cause stress on
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                            Any time the body gets dehydrated, it is in a compromised state.  Therefore, dry foods that dehydrate the body requiring it to be rehydrated, cause stress on ALL body organs, including, and especially, the kidneys.  

                            I really don't care if there is "hard evidence."  When it comes to the health of myself and my cats, I will take years of first hand experience any day, over "research."  Research is done in a controlled environment and the outcome can just as easily be tainted as a "sales pitch".  Research can all be manipulated to give the desired results.

                            There is volumes of info on health benefits of feeding raw, some of them are research based, and some are by years and decades of first hand experience.  

                            I am not on a "sales pitch" to convince anyone to feed a raw diet.  I really don't careat all what anyone feeds their animal.  I am just offering information and personal experience of my own, as well as many of my friends, pet owners and fellow breeders.  

                            Blessings~

                            Patti
                             

                            ________________________________
                            From: Leo Wempu <leowempu@...>
                            To: Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...>
                            Cc: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:26 PM
                            Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                             
                            The way I read Lisa A Peirson's quote, it doesn't say drinking water stresses the kidneys. It says exactly the opposite. She claims that cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated, because they do not drink enough to compensate for the smaller amount of water in their food. Logically, if they did drink enough, there'd be no problem in that respect. It remains to be proved that cats on dry food do not in fact drink enough and are chronically dehydrated.

                            I understand the logic behind this, although hard evidence is lacking.

                            Who wrote the second quote? It on the contarary claims that cats on dry food do in fact drink a lot and that they'd be dehydrated and well hydrated in turn, which would somehow strain the kidneys. How this would happen remains a mystery. Would they not drink at all for a few days and then drink "too much"? Sounds weird. I do not understand the logic behind this. The whole thing sounds like a sales pitch anyway.

                            I'm not a particular fan of feeding a dry diet, but I like to see substantiated claims (preferably research, not opinions), when people talk of things like "this and that causes kidney disease".

                            Sorry for the OT post, but I was genuinely baffled.

                            Henna

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                            ... I have to agree, Henna. Dr. Pierson says that water is the solution, so a well-hydrated food is canned or raw. ... If you would agree that urine specific
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 29, 2012
                              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Leo Wempu <leowempu@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The way I read Lisa A Peirson's quote, it doesn't say drinking water stresses the kidneys. It says exactly the opposite. She claims that cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated, because they do not drink enough to compensate for the smaller amount of water in their food.

                              I have to agree, Henna. Dr. Pierson says that water is the solution, so a well-hydrated food is canned or raw.

                              > Logically, if they did drink enough, there'd be no problem in that respect. It remains to be proved that cats on dry food do not in fact drink enough and are chronically dehydrated.
                              > I understand the logic behind this, although hard evidence is lacking.

                              If you would agree that urine specific gravity is a marker of hydration, there is hard evidence (at pubmed.gov) that cats eating dry food have consistently lower liquid intake and a subsequent higher USG. This matters for cats who tend to form crystals because "dilution is the solution."

                              > Who wrote the second quote? It on the contarary claims that cats on dry food do in fact drink a lot and that they'd be dehydrated and well hydrated in turn, which would somehow strain the kidneys.

                              I agree here too. The intermittent water consumption argument (going from hydrated to dehydrated etc.) doesn't --ouch, sorry, unavoidable pun-- hold water for me because cats are feast-and-famine eaters; they may eat nothing during daytime hours (and perhaps become mildly subclinically dehydrated) but eat a rabbit that night. The big cats are the same--they may glut themselves with antelope guts and then go some time before they have a chance to drink water or eat again.

                              Adrianna
                            • Patti Thomas
                              Dr Peirson says water with food source.  That does not include dry kibble.  It must be included with the food.   As I read it, both of the quotes are
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 30, 2012
                                Dr Peirson says water with food source.  That does not include dry kibble.  It must be included with the food.  

                                As I read it, both of the "quotes" are saying the same thing.  Dont allow the cat to become chronically dehydrated and then rehydrated ... it is not healthy.  Its a set up for urinary problems.  

                                If cats are "feast-and-famine eaters", this again, does not support grazing on dry kibble.  When feeding raw, or eating wild game, there is no need for grazing, or water consumption.  The moisture is obtained from the meat/animal and digestion/absorbtion time allows for longer time periods between feedings.  

                                It is not necessary for cats to eat more than twice a day when feeding raw.  I can feed them late evening and they don't eat again until late morning, some are not even interested then.  The only exception is pregnant females and young kittens.  Many of mine go for up to 30 hours or more without drinking water.   Adequate moisture is in the meat.  

                                Patti


                                ________________________________
                                From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:01 AM
                                Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                                 


                                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Leo Wempu <leowempu@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The way I read Lisa A Peirson's quote, it doesn't say drinking water stresses the kidneys. It says exactly the opposite. She claims that cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated, because they do not drink enough to compensate for the smaller amount of water in their food.

                                I have to agree, Henna. Dr. Pierson says that water is the solution, so a well-hydrated food is canned or raw.

                                > Logically, if they did drink enough, there'd be no problem in that respect. It remains to be proved that cats on dry food do not in fact drink enough and are chronically dehydrated.
                                > I understand the logic behind this, although hard evidence is lacking.

                                If you would agree that urine specific gravity is a marker of hydration, there is hard evidence (at pubmed.gov) that cats eating dry food have consistently lower liquid intake and a subsequent higher USG. This matters for cats who tend to form crystals because "dilution is the solution."

                                > Who wrote the second quote? It on the contarary claims that cats on dry food do in fact drink a lot and that they'd be dehydrated and well hydrated in turn, which would somehow strain the kidneys.

                                I agree here too. The intermittent water consumption argument (going from hydrated to dehydrated etc.) doesn't --ouch, sorry, unavoidable pun-- hold water for me because cats are feast-and-famine eaters; they may eat nothing during daytime hours (and perhaps become mildly subclinically dehydrated) but eat a rabbit that night. The big cats are the same--they may glut themselves with antelope guts and then go some time before they have a chance to drink water or eat again.

                                Adrianna




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                                Hi Patti I m not sure if this is meant to be a reply to my post? It sounds like you re counter-arguing here, but my post said that canned or raw foods were the
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 30, 2012
                                  Hi Patti

                                  I'm not sure if this is meant to be a reply to my post? It sounds like you're counter-arguing here, but my post said that canned or raw foods were the choice for good hydration, that cats eating dry food were chronically dehydrated, that cats get the bulk of their hydration from food. In other words, there's been no disagreement.

                                  The only thing I didn't follow was the dehydrated/rehydrated thing. It seems like dry-food-only eaters are chronically dehydrated, not intermittently dehydrated.

                                  A

                                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dr Peirson says water with food source.  That does not include dry kibble.  It must be included with the food.  
                                  >
                                  > As I read it, both of the "quotes" are saying the same thing.  Dont allow the cat to become chronically dehydrated and then rehydrated ... it is not healthy.  Its a set up for urinary problems.  
                                  >
                                  > If cats are "feast-and-famine eaters", this again, does not support grazing on dry kibble.  
                                • Leo Wempu
                                  Oh my, here we go off topic again :-). Yes, I agree that they on average are not as well hydrated as cats eating canned or raw. There is a little individual
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 30, 2012
                                    Oh my, here we go off topic again :-).


                                    Yes, I agree that they on average are not as well hydrated as cats eating canned or raw. There is a little individual variation I'm sure, because some cats just drink more than others even on the same diet (that's my personal experience). Can it be said that all cats on a dry diet are dehydrated though (where does dehydration begin, at which point does it become relevant for kidney health) and what's it's significance in terms of developing CKD? How big a difference would that make in terms of likelihood of getting CKD at some point along the line? It's always hard to talk about CKD in general, because many paths lead to the same end result. I still haven't found a food that would guarantee no CKD in the future and that includes raw.


                                    As you know, I have a kitty on completely wet food (and very wet food at that), who has a very high USG. She just won't drink. I'd be ecstatic, if she did. It confuses me to read about drinking water straining the kidneys. Surely water is good for her, whether it comes from a drinking bowl or a food bowl?

                                    Henna



                                    ________________________________
                                    From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:01 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [FH] Thor's visit with the Holistic Vet -- question on raw diet


                                     


                                    > Logically, if they did drink enough, there'd be no problem in that respect. It remains to be proved that cats on dry food do not in fact drink enough and are chronically dehydrated.
                                    > I understand the logic behind this, although hard evidence is lacking.

                                    If you would agree that urine specific gravity is a marker of hydration, there is hard evidence (at pubmed.gov) that cats eating dry food have consistently lower liquid intake and a subsequent higher USG. This matters for cats who tend to form crystals because "dilution is the solution."



                                    Adrianna




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                                    Hi Henna Not so off-topic, as heart kitties need to stay hydrated and not overhydrated. ... If we judge by having very high urine specific gravity, then yes it
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 30, 2012
                                      Hi Henna

                                      Not so off-topic, as heart kitties need to stay hydrated and not overhydrated.

                                      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Leo Wempu <leowempu@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Oh my, here we go off topic again :-).
                                      >
                                      > Yes, I agree that they on average are not as well hydrated as cats eating canned or raw. There is a little individual variation I'm sure, because some cats just drink more than others even on the same diet (that's my personal experience). Can it be said that all cats on a dry diet are dehydrated though (where does dehydration begin, at which point does it become relevant for kidney health) and what's it's significance in terms of developing CKD?

                                      If we judge by having very high urine specific gravity, then yes it seems that cats on dry food may be mildly chronically dehydrated. No one can make a link to CKD directly -- you'd have to have cats in studies for 12-14 years but it stands to reason that organs are healthiest in animals who are normally hydrated. Cats with FLUTD are classically dry-food-fed obese males. Diluting the urine means they have less chance to make the crystal plugs which cause blockages.

                                      I think that cats may be much more forgiving of lower water intake than some other mammals, but I do think they are best on a low carb wet diet.


                                      >I still haven't found a food that would guarantee no CKD in the future and that includes raw.

                                      You'll be a millionaire if you do :)


                                      > As you know, I have a kitty on completely wet food (and very wet food at that), who has a very high USG. She just won't drink.

                                      Before my cat developed CKD, he didn't drink at all. He got canned food with a fair amount of extra water and didn't need more (he was never clinically dehydrated).

                                      >It confuses me to read about drinking water straining the kidneys. Surely water is good for her, whether it comes from a drinking bowl or a food bowl?

                                      I agree.
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