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Azodyl and very sick little cat

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  • Terri Schneider
    I m posting here and on Tanya s CRF group hoping that someone can advise   Hi, My little cat has HCM and CRF.  For the last couple of months, we ve had to
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 2, 2012
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      I'm posting here and on Tanya's CRF group hoping that someone can advise
       
      Hi,

      My little cat has HCM and CRF.  For the last couple of months, we've had to give up on her kidneys because of her heart.  She was filling up with liquids and having to have her chest tapped every week or so.  She's down to 20 ml of subq fluids every other day along with increased furosemide (12.5 mg once a day 6.25 two more times a day).  She's also taking benazepril, aluminum hydroxide, Renal K, and furosemide and I've just started her on Dasuquin again because of her limp. On Monday night she woke my up because she was stumbling and she was knuckling on her left hind leg.  I should mention that she had a torn ACL in this leg about a year ago.  But it was the middle of the night and I rushed her to the emergency vet and they said that she had a saddle thrombus and that her situation was very grave.  On Tuesday afternoon they called and said that the blood clot had dissolved about an hour after she was admitted.

      I brought her home and she was exactly the same: knuckling on her left hind leg.  Awfully, I had to take her right back so that the cardiologist could look at her.  He said that he could feel pulses in both her legs and therefore the knuckling was unlikely to be heart related.  She is extremely tired now and barely moves, but when she does get up for her litter box, she hasn't been knuckling but is limping. Her paw pads are pink and warm.

      Because the heart was the immediate problem and there wasn't much that could be done about the kidneys, I haven't had her blood work done for several months.  But while she was in the hospital, they ran them and they are very bad.   Her creatinine is at 6.0 and her BUN is 93 and her phosphorus is at 7.8.  All of her other blood work was normal except her white blood cell count was slightly low.

      That was along way of asking this question:  I see that many of the group are giving azodyl, but is there a downside to giving it to a cat so ill both with kidney and heart failure?  I've ordered some but I'm feeling frightened that I might make her worse.  Her cardiologist made me sign off that I understood that my cat was very sick and I was chosing to try to help her and he wasn't trying to rip me off.

      Best to all of you and best little friends.  Any thoughts will be welcomed.

      Terri


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Toby Jones
      Just to clarify, if your cat had a saddle thrombus (ATE), I find it odd that the cardiologist would find the knuckling to be unrelated.  When Eli threw his
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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        Just to clarify, if your cat had a saddle thrombus (ATE), I find it odd that the cardiologist would find the knuckling to be unrelated.  When Eli threw his first clot he knuckled for weeks after.  As the bloodflow returned and the nerves repaired themselves (and he re-learned to walk) the knuckling ceased.  We could hear a pulse in both legs, but he still knuckled.

        My only other comment is to make sure you are feeding wet food... with kidney issues it is essential that your cat gets water through their food.  Maybe it's time for a low phosphorous food if you haven't already?

        Ryan 



        ________________________________
        From: Terri Schneider <terrikatie22@...>
        To: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 4:20 PM
        Subject: [FH] Azodyl and very sick little cat


         
        I'm posting here and on Tanya's CRF group hoping that someone can advise
         
        Hi,

        My little cat has HCM and CRF.  For the last couple of months, we've had to give up on her kidneys because of her heart.  She was filling up with liquids and having to have her chest tapped every week or so.  She's down to 20 ml of subq fluids every other day along with increased furosemide (12.5 mg once a day 6.25 two more times a day).  She's also taking benazepril, aluminum hydroxide, Renal K, and furosemide and I've just started her on Dasuquin again because of her limp. On Monday night she woke my up because she was stumbling and she was knuckling on her left hind leg.  I should mention that she had a torn ACL in this leg about a year ago.  But it was the middle of the night and I rushed her to the emergency vet and they said that she had a saddle thrombus and that her situation was very grave.  On Tuesday afternoon they called and said that the blood clot had dissolved about an hour after she was admitted.

        I brought her home and she was exactly the same: knuckling on her left hind leg.  Awfully, I had to take her right back so that the cardiologist could look at her.  He said that he could feel pulses in both her legs and therefore the knuckling was unlikely to be heart related.  She is extremely tired now and barely moves, but when she does get up for her litter box, she hasn't been knuckling but is limping. Her paw pads are pink and warm.

        Because the heart was the immediate problem and there wasn't much that could be done about the kidneys, I haven't had her blood work done for several months.  But while she was in the hospital, they ran them and they are very bad.   Her creatinine is at 6.0 and her BUN is 93 and her phosphorus is at 7.8.  All of her other blood work was normal except her white blood cell count was slightly low.

        That was along way of asking this question:  I see that many of the group are giving azodyl, but is there a downside to giving it to a cat so ill both with kidney and heart failure?  I've ordered some but I'm feeling frightened that I might make her worse.  Her cardiologist made me sign off that I understood that my cat was very sick and I was chosing to try to help her and he wasn't trying to rip me off.

        Best to all of you and best little friends.  Any thoughts will be welcomed.

        Terri

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ERIC LEE
         Has anyone s little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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           Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy?



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • penny33@earthlink.net
          yes after zachs first clot he was on asprin 3 months he had another then was put on plavix 5 mo later had a massive heart attack died.. but the months
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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            yes after zachs first clot he was on asprin 3 months he had another then was put on plavix 5 mo later had a massive heart attack died.. but the months inbetween on asprin or the plavix he appeared healthy played ate like a horse enjoyed life.. merr

            -----Original Message-----
            >From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
            >Sent: Feb 3, 2012 1:20 PM
            >To: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?
            >
            > Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy?
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            ""Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket""
          • Westgold
            What kind of stories do those of you who are using natto have?? ... From: penny33@earthlink.net To: ERIC LEE Cc: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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              What kind of stories do those of you who are using natto have??
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: penny33@...
              To: ERIC LEE
              Cc: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?



              yes after zachs first clot he was on asprin 3 months he had another then was put on plavix 5 mo later had a massive heart attack died.. but the months inbetween on asprin or the plavix he appeared healthy played ate like a horse enjoyed life.. merr

              -----Original Message-----
              >From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
              >Sent: Feb 3, 2012 1:20 PM
              >To: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?
              >
              > Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy?
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              ""Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket""




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • crfcatsa
              Our CRF cat was on Azodyl for 4 years. While he didn t have any heart problems, I strongly doubt that there would be any conflicts or problems using Azodyl in
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                Our CRF cat was on Azodyl for 4 years. While he didn't have any heart problems, I strongly doubt that there would be any conflicts or problems using Azodyl in your situation. The capsules are filled with a probiotic (fancy word for bacteria, but a good kind) that breaks down creatinine in the intestines. This reduces the load that the kidneys need to handle, and can help with the CRF. I think the only interaction that might be a problem is maybe with an antibiotic (which would tend to kill off the probiotics as well).
                I think it helped our cat deal with his CRF, and kept him feeling better.

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Terri Schneider <terrikatie22@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm posting here and on Tanya's CRF group hoping that someone can advise
                >  
                > That was along way of asking this question:  I see that many of the group are giving azodyl, but is there a downside to giving it to a cat so ill both with kidney and heart failure?  I've ordered some but I'm feeling frightened that I might make her worse.  Her cardiologist made me sign off that I understood that my cat was very sick and I was chosing to try to help her and he wasn't trying to rip me off.
                >
                > Best to all of you and best little friends.  Any thoughts will be welcomed.
                >
                > Terri
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • joanne marbut
                Aspirin isn t as effective as Plavix and if the heart condition is bad enough, then Plavix is the key to thinning the blood enough to prevent blood pooling in
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                  Aspirin isn't as effective as Plavix and if the heart condition is bad enough, then Plavix is the key to thinning the blood enough to prevent blood pooling in the valve which leads to clots (not that I can guarantee a clot-less life with Plavix.) My vet cardio rarely prescribes aspirin. So, yes, clots can occur with aspirin but I don't know what is the risk, only that I've read Plavix is more effective in prevention.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carol
                  Our Misty was on Plavix and she still had 3 little strokes. We switched her to nattokinase and she s been okay since last August (knock on wood)! ... From:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                    Our Misty was on Plavix and she still had 3 little strokes. We switched her to nattokinase and she's been okay since last August (knock on wood)!




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
                    To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Feb 3, 2012 1:58 pm
                    Subject: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?





                    Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy?
                    .








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Banu Korgul
                    How old was Zach and was he also a Crf cat? Was he getting natto? Thanks and my sincere condolences.. Sent via Banu s iPod touch ... [Non-text portions of this
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                      How old was Zach and was he also a Crf cat?
                      Was he getting natto?

                      Thanks and my sincere condolences..

                      Sent via Banu's iPod touch

                      On Feb 3, 2012, at 21:07, penny33@... wrote:

                      > yes after zachs first clot he was on asprin 3 months he had another then was put on plavix 5 mo later had a massive heart attack died.. but the months inbetween on asprin or the plavix he appeared healthy played ate like a horse enjoyed life.. merr
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > >From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
                      > >Sent: Feb 3, 2012 1:20 PM
                      > >To: "feline-heart@yahoogroups.com" <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                      > >Subject: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?
                      > >
                      > > Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin
                      >
                      > Switch to: Text-


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Banu Korgul
                      Hello, Isn t asprin/plavix for removing clots, and natto for preventing clots? Why would they have any effect on strokes? Do they have any effect? Thanks Sent
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                        Hello,
                        Isn't asprin/plavix for removing clots, and natto for preventing clots?
                        Why would they have any effect on strokes? Do they have any effect?
                        Thanks

                        Sent via Banu's iPod touchs

                        On Feb 4, 2012, at 2:10, Carol <carolroar@...> wrote:

                        > Our Misty was on Plavix and she still had 3 little strokes. We switched her to nattokinase and she's been okay since last August (knock on wood)!
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
                        > To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, Feb 3, 2012 1:58 pm
                        > Subject: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?
                        >
                        > Has anyone's little ones had stroke even thought they were on aspirin therapy?
                        > .
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Banu Korgul
                        And have do you recognize a stroke? Whether it is a mini or a massive one? Thanks ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                          And have do you recognize a stroke? Whether it is a mini or a massive one?

                          Thanks
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Banu Korgul
                          Sorry the first sentence should be othe way around, asprin to prevent and natto for existing clots.. Sent via Banu s iPod touch ... [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                            Sorry the first sentence should be othe way around, asprin to prevent and natto for existing clots..

                            Sent via Banu's iPod touch

                            On Feb 4, 2012, at 5:29, Banu Korgul <banukorgul@...> wrote:

                            > Hello,
                            > Isn't asprin/plavix for removing clots, and natto for preventing clots?
                            > Why would they have any effect on strokes? Do they have any effect?
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > Sent via Banu's iPod touchs
                            >
                            > On Feb 4, 2012, at 2:10, Carol <carolroar@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Our Misty was on Plavix and she still had 3 little strokes. We switched her to nattokinase and she's been okay since last August (knock on wood)
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Carol
                            The clot coming loose and getting lodged either in the brain or other artery, is what causes the stroke. Any of the blood thinning medications and supplements
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 3, 2012
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                              The clot coming loose and getting lodged either in the brain or other artery, is what causes the stroke. Any of the blood thinning medications and supplements are taken to prevent the clots from forming and coming loose causing the stroke.

                              Nattokinase does thin the blood, reduces the formation of the fibrin that can cause clots to form. If there is a clot, the nattokinase, since it is an enzyme, the enzyme will "digest" the clot. That's the theory anyway. There haven't been any real medical studies on Nattokinase. There are a few studies done and those papers are in our files under "nattokinase". http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/links/Nattokinase_001234831633/

                              I don't really know which, if any, are better to use to prevent clots. I just hope that us giving the nattokinase to Misty is going to prevent her from getting a clot. We lost her sister, Snowball, to a clot. We didn't have her on anything, because the vet didn't think she was as bad as she was. I wish we had not listened to them and given it to Snowball. Maybe she'd still be with us if we had given her something.

                              Carol and the gang



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Banu Korgul <banukorgul@...>
                              To: Carol <carolroar@...>
                              Cc: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:28 pm
                              Subject: Re: [FH] Has anyone had a stroke or clot even though they were on aspirin therapy?


                              Hello,
                              Isn't asprin/plavix for removing clots, and natto for preventing clots?
                              Why would they have any effect on strokes? Do they have any effect?
                              Thanks






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • carolroars
                              hi Banu, I didn t see if anyone answered you on this. What I know about recognizing the strokes, is what happened to my own guys. Sometimes they will howl out
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 9, 2012
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                                hi Banu,

                                I didn't see if anyone answered you on this.

                                What I know about recognizing the strokes, is what happened to my own guys. Sometimes they will howl out in pain and then collapse if it's a big one. Snowball threw up, then collapsed, then howled. Our friend's cat, Chris who I took care of, he just became lame in his one rear leg. He didn't have any other signs. With Misty, she became disoriented and couldn't walk at all. Her's we think were little episodes, much like a TIA (Transient Ischemic Attack)event that humans have, which is a kind of mini stroke. She didn't stay paralyzed, but was able to use her legs within a matter of hours.

                                Generally, I would look for things like extremely dilated pupils, disorientation, being out of balance for a small stroke... the big ones, you can't miss...they're almost always very physically affecting to the cat...howling, pain, paralysis, vomiting, defacating.


                                Carol and the gang

                                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Banu Korgul <banukorgul@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > And have do you recognize a stroke? Whether it is a mini or a massive one?
                                >
                                >
                              • Banu Korgul
                                Thank you.. And these resolve when? After asprin? İ mean even if there is a remedy, how do they not have a heart attack during these horrible symtoms? Mine is
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 9, 2012
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                                  Thank you..

                                  And these resolve when? After asprin?
                                  İ mean even if there is a remedy, how do they not have a heart attack during these horrible symtoms? Mine is afraid when he sees a stranger!

                                  And how much natto do you give for a 5,5 kg cat w crf and dilated cardimyopathy?

                                  Thanks



                                  On 10 Şub 2012, at 05:18, "carolroars" <carolroar@...> wrote:

                                  > hi Banu,
                                  >
                                  > I didn't see if anyone answered you on this.
                                  >
                                  > What I know about recognizing the strokes, is what happened to my own guys. Sometimes they will howl out in pain and then collapse if it's a big one. Snowball threw up, then collapsed, then howled. Our friend's cat, Chris who I took care of, he just became lame in his one rear leg. He didn't have any other signs. With Misty, she became disoriented and couldn't walk at all. Her's we think were little episodes, much like a TIA (Transient Ischemic Attack)event that humans have, which is a kind of mini stroke. She didn't stay paralyzed, but was able to use her legs within a matter of hours.
                                  >
                                  > Generally, I would look for things like extremely dilated pupils, disorientation, being out of balance for a small stroke... the big ones, you can't miss...they're almost always very physically affecting to the cat...howling, pain, paralysis, vomiting, defacating.
                                  >
                                  > Carol and the gang
                                  >
                                  > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Banu Korgul <banukorgul@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > And have do you recognize a stroke? Whether it is a mini or a massive one?
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • carolroars
                                  Well, many cats do recover from their strokes, but many don t. My angel Snowball didn t she never had any warning signs or prior strokes, and she had a big one
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 9, 2012
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                                    Well, many cats do recover from their strokes, but many don't. My angel Snowball didn't she never had any warning signs or prior strokes, and she had a big one and it took her within 20 minutes. Our angel Chris had a stroke and he got better and got back the use of his rear leg.

                                    I know that if they survive a stroke, taking aspirin or Plavix doesn't guarantee that they won't have another one. They just reduce the chances that another may recur. It's the same with the Nattokinase...there's no guarantee that it'll totally prevent a clot. It just reduces the chance of one forming.

                                    We give Misty Nutricology Nattozyme. They're 36mg each and we give her one twice a day, so she's getting 72mg a day. That 72mg total dose has 1440 fibrinolytic units. Misty weighs 12 lbs, so that's about the same as your kitty (5.5kg = 12.1 lbs). We started out with one 36mg softgel a day for the first 3 days, then increased it to twice a day.


                                    Carol and the gang



                                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Banu Korgul <banukorgul@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thank you..
                                    >
                                    > And these resolve when? After asprin?
                                    > Ä° mean even if there is a remedy, how do they not have a heart attack during these horrible symtoms? Mine is afraid when he sees a stranger!
                                    >
                                    > And how much natto do you give for a 5,5 kg cat w crf and dilated cardimyopathy?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks
                                    >
                                    >
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