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Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy

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  • Patti Thomas
    Adriann.... I have noticed that weird A in some posts as well.  Never have figured out why. Anyway, I hope you will see this as a discussion and not an
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 2, 2012
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      Adriann....

      I have noticed that weird 'A' in some posts as well.  Never have figured out why.

      Anyway, I hope you will see this as a discussion and not an "argument".   In response to your comment ....  
      " in this particular case pet food companies are exactly who would be most interested in pinpointing which protein sources are most allergenic"

      I strongly disagree.  It is the veteranarians who should be involved in conducting  these studies.  Independent of all pet food manufactures.   

      Here is one vet  (there are others) who has decided to think outside the box and do her own independent study resulting in very valuable information.  

      http://www.catinfo.org/


      And another really good link to read about commercial pet foods:

      http://www.rawfedcats.org/toxic.htm


      I have no personal investment in what anyone feeds their cat.  It is a personal decision.  I am just offering infomation from the other side of the coin.

      Patti


      ________________________________
      From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:44 AM
      Subject: Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


       


      I wonder if I have something wrong in my settings because some people's posts come up with a weird "A" scattered throughout ...

      Anyway ...

      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
      > The problem with trying to gain sufficient protein for obligate carnivores, from a vegetable source, is that vegetables are an incomplete protein.  Meat has all of the essential amino acids to make a complete protein.  Twenty two, I believe.  

      Meat varies in amino acid content, actually. Some animal meat has more taurine or less taurine, for example, and may or may not have XYZ amino acid in sufficient quantity or at all. (Eggs are supposed to be the most complete protein source IIRC). I have not seen a cat food that contains only corn as a source of protein anyway -- it is used in combo with other proteins, and is usually in cat foods as an adjunct protein and a source of EFAs.

      >  Vegetables have only one or two of the essential amino acids. 

      Vegetables with usable protein (like corn) have more than two amino acids. I think corn has maybe 8 or so? But it doesn't have all of the necessary-for-life amino acids for cats, that's why it's used in combo with other sources.

      >  Starches have no place in a cats diet.  Those are the culprits in cat diabetes and obesity.

      I agree that high carb diets make some cats fat and some cats diabetic; I really blame dry food in general. It's very annoying (and rather silly) that so many of these expensive "grain free" dry foods are made instead with simple sugar starches, potatoes and tapioca. I think cats do best on a wet diet that is high-protein too.

      > Most all of the documentation of food allergies in animals is done by pet food companines.

      What does this mean? That it's not valid? I see an awful lot of snark on the internet and on message boards about studies funded by the pet food companies, which I guess is supposed to mean that the researchers accepting this money are corrupt and lacking in academic integrity; that they skew the results as they are told to; and that the peer reviewers and medical journal publishers also turn a blind eye to rampant faking of results -?

      Regardless, in this particular case pet food companies are exactly who would be most interested in pinpointing which protein sources are most allergenic ... If they sell a food for allergies that doesn't work, people will find out very quickly. Testing like this is unlikely to be in a lab anyway, it would be done with owned cats through a study. The paper citing beef, dairy, fish as the 3 most common allergens in cats is from Belgian researchers, FWIW.

      Also, based on the previous argument on protein being more complete and complex, it makes sense that animal proteins would be the most allergenic. It doesn't mean that animal proteins are inappropriate or bad, and there are certainly many different types to choose from.

      Again I'll mention that I feed a high-protein, meat based wet diet for my own cats, and don't have anything invested in pet food companies or the corn industry. This is just sharing information.

      Adriann




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    • Patti Thomas
      Why can t a company organize a study? Who should organize it ? I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 2, 2012
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        "Why can't a company organize a study? Who should organize it"?


        I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  Then, vets can dictate to the pet food companies what is proper nutrition, instead of the reverse.  The most education in nutrition the majority of vet students get is from the classes that are taught by companies such as Hills (Science Diet).  That seems like the tail wagging the dog.

        A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  If vet students were taught by veterinary nutritional specialist using something besides commercial pet foods as the only option for feeding, I might be able to agree that it is not tainted.  

        "If you tell someone 'corn has no protein and is not digestible' and they bring that argument to their vet, their vet easily dismisses it and can show that corn is indeed highly digestible and a source of protein".  


        I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?  

        Not every vet would disagree that corn is not for feline diets.  I have met and discussed this with numerous vets who absolutely agree it has no place in the diet.  Along with other grains.  I suppose it's who one talks to as to what answer will be given.  I have talked to vets from many different areas, who strongly endorse homemade diets (whether cooked or raw) over commercial pet foods.    


        Just because a veterinarian who has been educated in nutrition by Hills representatives says corn is OK, means very little to me.  Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

        http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=717422


        Corn is for humans, cows and other animals that are not obligate carnivores.  With the alarming rate of feline diabetes, IBD, obesity, allergies, PKD, male urinary cystals, and thyroid disease, it would be difficult for me to believe that our cats are being fed properly through commercial diets.  The poor suffering animal is put on one type of commercial diet after the other, in an attempt to correct the problem.  Often with only temporary relief.   

        And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.  

        It only takes a small amount of research to see that the delicious choice cuts of beef, tender chicken, and all of the other labels on pet foods, is indeed "marketing" and not factual.  The amounts of recent recalls and toxic, deadly tainted pet foods, should be a sure awakening.


        Patti


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      • acrocat@rocketmail.com
        Hi Patti I ve tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 3, 2012
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          Hi Patti

          I've tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post on the subject.

          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
          > I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  

          IF you can find a state or veterinary school that receives state funding who will fund studies on companion animal nutrition, that would be great. As is I don't think states or schools have that in their budget, so as in other parts of a capitalist economy, industry funds research.

          Just for the record, too, lay people from Hills are not teaching classes. Hills and other companies employ both veterinarians and residency-trained board certified veterinary nutritionists, however.

          > A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  

          That would be great. It would be a massive undertaking but if someone can figure out private funding (I think government funding is out of the question), there would be some eager participants and we'd all get some great info from it.

          > I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?

          Um, you said corn and other grains have little to no protein. :) Yes, anyone who looks can show otherwise. That's how the discussion started, I replied with some facts about corn and other grains.

           
          > Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

          There are articles and there are articles. The one you linked to is a regular old journalism-style article; what is this, how is it made, why should it work, etc. This is different than a research article proofed and vetted (not to make a pun) by a reputable medical journal which has a peer-review system. The first type, anyone can write based on one's own thoughts or, as the author in your example did, based on a multitude of peer-reviewed research articles. The second type is written by researchers, usually in academia but also based on research in a clinical setting. It is an extremely serious charge to say that these authors would falsify results or change answers based on who funded their research, etc.



          > And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.

          I'm sure you didn't intend this to sound so condescending re: the veterinarians and veterinary specialists and PhDs who perform research and publish papers. I don't think it's possible, with the 12+ years of post-secondary education they have on average, that they were unable in all of that time to peek outside of a Hill's box (or bag, as it may be) i.e. have ideas other than what has been presented to them. That's sort of the thing about researchers, taking what's been presented and then figuring out what else hasn't been known, documented, thought of, or had its validity questioned. I think that it's pretty much impossible not to think beyond the can or bag.

          That's all, sorry to everyone for the tangent. I think it's important to have a scientific footing when speaking about health issues. And yes again, for the record, I advocate and feed my own cats a high protein, meat based diet and no, I've never bought Hills. :)

          Adriann
           
        • Patti Thomas
          I guess I didn t realize discussing good nutrition, as opposed to illness and medications, was considered tangential and OT .   Interesting.    I too,
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2012
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            I guess I didn't realize discussing good nutrition, as opposed to illness and medications, was considered "tangential" and "OT".   Interesting.   

            I too, was just trying to share info that may or may not have been helpful.  Sorry if I rocked everyones world.  That was not my intention.  

            Crawling back in my lurking hole now.

            Patti


            ________________________________
            From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 2:03 AM
            Subject: Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


             
            Hi Patti

            I've tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post on the subject.

            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
            > I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  

            IF you can find a state or veterinary school that receives state funding who will fund studies on companion animal nutrition, that would be great. As is I don't think states or schools have that in their budget, so as in other parts of a capitalist economy, industry funds research.

            Just for the record, too, lay people from Hills are not teaching classes. Hills and other companies employ both veterinarians and residency-trained board certified veterinary nutritionists, however.

            > A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  

            That would be great. It would be a massive undertaking but if someone can figure out private funding (I think government funding is out of the question), there would be some eager participants and we'd all get some great info from it.

            > I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?

            Um, you said corn and other grains have little to no protein. :) Yes, anyone who looks can show otherwise. That's how the discussion started, I replied with some facts about corn and other grains.

             
            > Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

            There are articles and there are articles. The one you linked to is a regular old journalism-style article; what is this, how is it made, why should it work, etc. This is different than a research article proofed and vetted (not to make a pun) by a reputable medical journal which has a peer-review system. The first type, anyone can write based on one's own thoughts or, as the author in your example did, based on a multitude of peer-reviewed research articles. The second type is written by researchers, usually in academia but also based on research in a clinical setting. It is an extremely serious charge to say that these authors would falsify results or change answers based on who funded their research, etc.

            > And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.

            I'm sure you didn't intend this to sound so condescending re: the veterinarians and veterinary specialists and PhDs who perform research and publish papers. I don't think it's possible, with the 12+ years of post-secondary education they have on average, that they were unable in all of that time to peek outside of a Hill's box (or bag, as it may be) i.e. have ideas other than what has been presented to them. That's sort of the thing about researchers, taking what's been presented and then figuring out what else hasn't been known, documented, thought of, or had its validity questioned. I think that it's pretty much impossible not to think beyond the can or bag.

            That's all, sorry to everyone for the tangent. I think it's important to have a scientific footing when speaking about health issues. And yes again, for the record, I advocate and feed my own cats a high protein, meat based diet and no, I've never bought Hills. :)

            Adriann
             




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