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Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy

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  • Jim
    My 17 year old Norgeian Forest cat diagnosed with CHF by vet cardiolgist in August has regressed (lessened) He had an ultra sound in September,October and
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 31, 2011
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      My 17 year old Norgeian Forest cat diagnosed with CHF by vet cardiolgist in August has regressed (lessened)
      He had an ultra sound in September,October and December.
      October showed no change It showed CHF ,left atrial smoke,HCM
      December result
      Left atrium has reduced in size and only midly dilated.The left ventricular wall is less thickened then previous ultrasounds
      .Smoke in left in left atrium(indicator for a blood clot) is gone
      Left atrium is reduced in size.
      Now they think its myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
      I know what the problem was and possibly it might help other cat owners.My cat is allergic to many foods .I could tell this because after feeding him he would start scratching 15 minutes later. He is only supposed to eat Z/D Hills food because the protein in the food is hydrolysed.Thru hydrolsis the body does not recognize it as a foreign entity and there is no allergic reaction.It's the protein in foods which triggers the allergic reaction in cats
      Allergies to food can bring on inflammation thruout the cats body
      There is a connection between inflammation and heart disease.
      All of my cats CHF attacks occurred after eating canned seafood or canned chicken,or canned beef
      In allergic reactions or food intolerance histamine is released by the body.Histamine increases the heart beat
      In October I switched back to his hypoallergenic food,the food which will not trigger any allergic reaction and didnt feed him his regular food.He doesnt like it but so I finger fed him
      .His CHF attacks stopped and now his ultrasounds have improved
      although I continue to give him lasix ,Fortekor,and plavix,reduced
      Its possible there is a connection between food intolerance causing inflammation resulting in heart disease…
      Worth thinking about…it might just be the food…
      .
    • MAUREEN FOGG
      Jim, Yuki has chicken and beef allergies as well,  Thanks for this info - I keep her away from chicken and beef but i wonder if there are other things in the
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 31, 2011
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        Jim,
        Yuki has chicken and beef allergies as well,  Thanks for this info - I keep her
        away from chicken and beef but i wonder if there are other things in
        the fancy feast classic that she is allergic to.  Her other foods are tuna and
        shrimp and evo herring (dry) which has no chicken, and wysong venison and wysong
        fish (dry) which have no chicken.  She does scratch her ears sometimes after
        eating the fancy feast cod and shrimp and sole.
        I just dont get how she was doing so well and  I was lowering the lasix - and
        then she has 3 days of CHF and I have to increase it like crazy.
        I do think that their diet is so very important. 
        Maureen




        ________________________________
        From: Jim <jim64299@...>
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, December 31, 2011 1:38:52 PM
        Subject: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food
        Allergy

         
        My 17 year old Norgeian Forest cat diagnosed with CHF by vet cardiolgist in
        August has regressed (lessened)
        He had an ultra sound in September,October and December.
        October showed no change It showed CHF ,left atrial smoke,HCM
        December result
        Left atrium has reduced in size and only midly dilated.The left ventricular wall
        is less thickened then previous ultrasounds
        .Smoke in left in left atrium(indicator for a blood clot) is gone
        Left atrium is reduced in size.
        Now they think its myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
        I know what the problem was and possibly it might help other cat owners.My cat
        is allergic to many foods .I could tell this because after feeding him he would
        start scratching 15 minutes later. He is only supposed to eat Z/D Hills food
        because the protein in the food is hydrolysed.Thru hydrolsis the body does not
        recognize it as a foreign entity and there is no allergic reaction.It's the
        protein in foods which triggers the allergic reaction in cats
        Allergies to food can bring on inflammation thruout the cats body
        There is a connection between inflammation and heart disease.
        All of my cats CHF attacks occurred after eating canned seafood or canned
        chicken,or canned beef
        In allergic reactions or food intolerance histamine is released by the
        body.Histamine increases the heart beat
        In October I switched back to his hypoallergenic food,the food which will not
        trigger any allergic reaction and didnt feed him his regular food.He doesnt like
        it but so I finger fed him
        .His CHF attacks stopped and now his ultrasounds have improved
        although I continue to give him lasix ,Fortekor,and plavix,reduced
        Its possible there is a connection between food intolerance causing inflammation
        resulting in heart disease…
        Worth thinking about…it might just be the food…
        .




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Patti Thomas
        Hi Jim, I am curious how it has been determined that your boy is allergic to protein?   Since all felines are obligate carnivores, which means they are
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 31, 2011
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          Hi Jim,

          I am curious how it has been determined that your boy is allergic to protein?  

          Since all felines are obligate carnivores, which means they are animals that depend soley on animal flesh for their nutrient requirements for survival, and actually lack the physiology required for efficient digestion of vegetable matter, it seems odd this would be something your boy is having issues with.  Unless there is some liver/kidney issues that have developed and he is not able to process protein properly.  

          Most all commercial pet foods contain fillers such as corn, wheat, oats, and other grains, which have little to no protein or nutritional value.  They also contain artifical colors and flavorings/flavor enhancers,  all of which can often cause allergies.  

          I have seen this with my own cats, before switching to an all raw diet.  Since then, I have had no issues at all with allergies.  I am not suggesting you switch to raw at his age, but something to consider for younger ones.  

          I do absolutely think you are right about inflammation and the connection to heart disease, I just don't know if I agree it is from the protein in pet foods.  My guess is it could have far more to do with the undigestable, unusable, ingredients found in commercial foods.  

          Unless, like I said, your boy is having liver/kidney issues and cannot properly process the protein in his diet.  At his age, that could be possible. 

          Patti


          ________________________________
          From: Jim <jim64299@...>
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 1:38 PM
          Subject: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


           
          My 17 year old Norgeian Forest cat diagnosed with CHF by vet cardiolgist in August has regressed (lessened)
          He had an ultra sound in September,October and December.
          October showed no change It showed CHF ,left atrial smoke,HCM
          December result
          Left atrium has reduced in size and only midly dilated.The left ventricular wall is less thickened then previous ultrasounds
          .Smoke in left in left atrium(indicator for a blood clot) is gone
          Left atrium is reduced in size.
          Now they think its myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
          I know what the problem was and possibly it might help other cat owners.My cat is allergic to many foods .I could tell this because after feeding him he would start scratching 15 minutes later. He is only supposed to eat Z/D Hills food because the protein in the food is hydrolysed.Thru hydrolsis the body does not recognize it as a foreign entity and there is no allergic reaction.It's the protein in foods which triggers the allergic reaction in cats
          Allergies to food can bring on inflammation thruout the cats body
          There is a connection between inflammation and heart disease.
          All of my cats CHF attacks occurred after eating canned seafood or canned chicken,or canned beef
          In allergic reactions or food intolerance histamine is released by the body.Histamine increases the heart beat
          In October I switched back to his hypoallergenic food,the food which will not trigger any allergic reaction and didnt feed him his regular food.He doesnt like it but so I finger fed him
          .His CHF attacks stopped and now his ultrasounds have improved
          although I continue to give him lasix ,Fortekor,and plavix,reduced
          Its possible there is a connection between food intolerance causing inflammation resulting in heart disease…
          Worth thinking about…it might just be the food…
          .




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim
          Cats can develop allergies to proteins in foods. http://cats.about.com/od/specialfoodneeds/tp/allergyfood.htm
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 1, 2012
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            Cats can develop allergies to proteins in foods.
            http://cats.about.com/od/specialfoodneeds/tp/allergyfood.htm

            http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1402&aid=142

            http://www.cat-world.com.au/food-allergies-in-cats

            It is not always just the fillers,colors or other ingredients they add to cat food which may be the cause although one would think it would be…I did too
            My cats developed IBD ( Intestinal Bowel Disease) a few years ago.It can be be caused by food allergy which causes inflammation of the intestine and colon. After trying the expensive cat foods such as Wellness, etc which had no fillers colors, or grains ( for 8 weeks) it didn't make any difference)
            Then we tried different proteins, such as Dick Pattens duck formula and then we tried lamb formula to see if it was a certain protein ,That didn't make any difference..The IBD continued.
            Now they have a new method.Instead of removing the protein from their diet They break it down in to amino acids which are the smaller building blocks of protein,By breaking it down to its smaller components the body's immune system doesn't recognize it as a foreign entity and there is no allergic reaction
            It was only when he switched to a protein hydrolysed diet that the IBD resolved itself. And the scratching went away

            Here is the article on protein hydrolysis diet and cat food allergy
            http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=717422

            Hope this helps J




            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Jim,
            >
            > I am curious how it has been determined that your boy is allergic to protein?  
            >
            > Since all felines are obligate carnivores, which means they are animals that depend soley on animal flesh for their nutrient requirements for survival, and actually lack the physiology required for efficient digestion of vegetable matter, it seems odd this would be something your boy is having issues with.  Unless there is some liver/kidney issues that have developed and he is not able to process protein properly.  
            >
            > Most all commercial pet foods contain fillers such as corn, wheat, oats, and other grains, which have little to no protein or nutritional value.  They also contain artifical colors and flavorings/flavor enhancers,  all of which can often cause allergies.  
            >
            > I have seen this with my own cats, before switching to an all raw diet.  Since then, I have had no issues at all with allergies.  I am not suggesting you switch to raw at his age, but something to consider for younger ones.  
            >
            > I do absolutely think you are right about inflammation and the connection to heart disease, I just don't know if I agree it is from the protein in pet foods.  My guess is it could have far more to do with the undigestable, unusable, ingredients found in commercial foods.  
            >
            > Unless, like I said, your boy is having liver/kidney issues and cannot properly process the protein in his diet.  At his age, that could be possible. 
            >
            > Patti
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Jim <jim64299@...>
            > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 1:38 PM
            > Subject: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy
            >
            >
            >  
            > My 17 year old Norgeian Forest cat diagnosed with CHF by vet cardiolgist in August has regressed (lessened)
            > He had an ultra sound in September,October and December.
            > October showed no change It showed CHF ,left atrial smoke,HCM
            > December result
            > Left atrium has reduced in size and only midly dilated.The left ventricular wall is less thickened then previous ultrasounds
            > .Smoke in left in left atrium(indicator for a blood clot) is gone
            > Left atrium is reduced in size.
            > Now they think its myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
            > I know what the problem was and possibly it might help other cat owners.My cat is allergic to many foods .I could tell this because after feeding him he would start scratching 15 minutes later. He is only supposed to eat Z/D Hills food because the protein in the food is hydrolysed.Thru hydrolsis the body does not recognize it as a foreign entity and there is no allergic reaction.It's the protein in foods which triggers the allergic reaction in cats
            > Allergies to food can bring on inflammation thruout the cats body
            > There is a connection between inflammation and heart disease.
            > All of my cats CHF attacks occurred after eating canned seafood or canned chicken,or canned beef
            > In allergic reactions or food intolerance histamine is released by the body.Histamine increases the heart beat
            > In October I switched back to his hypoallergenic food,the food which will not trigger any allergic reaction and didnt feed him his regular food.He doesnt like it but so I finger fed him
            > .His CHF attacks stopped and now his ultrasounds have improved
            > although I continue to give him lasix ,Fortekor,and plavix,reduced
            > Its possible there is a connection between food intolerance causing inflammation resulting in heart disease…
            > Worth thinking about…it might just be the food…
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • acrocat@rocketmail.com
            On a bit of a tangent ... ... I think that cats, as obligate carnivores, should have a meat-based diet. However they can and do digest and gain nutrition from
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 1, 2012
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              On a bit of a tangent ...

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
              > Most all commercial pet foods contain fillers such as corn, wheat, oats, and other grains, which have little to no protein or nutritional value.

              I think that cats, as obligate carnivores, should have a meat-based diet. However they can and do digest and gain nutrition from grains and starches, it's a common myth that these don't contain protein and that cats somehow can't access its nutrients. Many foods contain corn as a cheap protein source, not as a filler.

              BTW, the two most commonly documented food allergens in cats are beef and dairy (the third is the protein of some type of plant, can't remember if it's wheat? corn?). Go figure.

              Adriann
            • Patti Thomas
              The problem with trying to gain sufficient protein for obligate carnivores, from a vegetable source, is that vegetables are an incomplete protein.  Meat has
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 1, 2012
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                The problem with trying to gain sufficient protein for obligate carnivores, from a vegetable source, is that vegetables are an incomplete protein.  Meat has all of the essential amino acids to make a complete protein.  Twenty two, I believe.  

                 Vegetables have only one or two of the essential amino acids. Not nearly enough to sustain an obligate carnivore.  Starches have no place in a cats diet.  Those are the culprits in cat diabetes and obesity.  Corn is considered an energy food.  High in sugar content, but very little protein. 


                Most all of the documentation of food allergies in animals is done by pet food companines.  

                Patti


                ________________________________
                From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 12:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


                 
                On a bit of a tangent ...

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                > Most all commercial pet foods contain fillers such as corn, wheat, oats, and other grains, which have little to no protein or nutritional value.

                I think that cats, as obligate carnivores, should have a meat-based diet. However they can and do digest and gain nutrition from grains and starches, it's a common myth that these don't contain protein and that cats somehow can't access its nutrients. Many foods contain corn as a cheap protein source, not as a filler.

                BTW, the two most commonly documented food allergens in cats are beef and dairy (the third is the protein of some type of plant, can't remember if it's wheat? corn?). Go figure.

                Adriann




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                I wonder if I have something wrong in my settings because some people s posts come up with a weird A scattered throughout ... Anyway ... ... Meat varies in
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 1, 2012
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                  I wonder if I have something wrong in my settings because some people's posts come up with a weird "A" scattered throughout ...

                  Anyway ...

                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                  > The problem with trying to gain sufficient protein for obligate carnivores, from a vegetable source, is that vegetables are an incomplete protein.  Meat has all of the essential amino acids to make a complete protein.  Twenty two, I believe.  

                  Meat varies in amino acid content, actually. Some animal meat has more taurine or less taurine, for example, and may or may not have XYZ amino acid in sufficient quantity or at all. (Eggs are supposed to be the most complete protein source IIRC). I have not seen a cat food that contains only corn as a source of protein anyway -- it is used in combo with other proteins, and is usually in cat foods as an adjunct protein and a source of EFAs.

                  >  Vegetables have only one or two of the essential amino acids. 

                  Vegetables with usable protein (like corn) have more than two amino acids. I think corn has maybe 8 or so? But it doesn't have all of the necessary-for-life amino acids for cats, that's why it's used in combo with other sources.

                  >  Starches have no place in a cats diet.  Those are the culprits in cat diabetes and obesity.

                  I agree that high carb diets make some cats fat and some cats diabetic; I really blame dry food in general. It's very annoying (and rather silly) that so many of these expensive "grain free" dry foods are made instead with simple sugar starches, potatoes and tapioca. I think cats do best on a wet diet that is high-protein too.

                  > Most all of the documentation of food allergies in animals is done by pet food companines.

                  What does this mean? That it's not valid? I see an awful lot of snark on the internet and on message boards about studies funded by the pet food companies, which I guess is supposed to mean that the researchers accepting this money are corrupt and lacking in academic integrity; that they skew the results as they are told to; and that the peer reviewers and medical journal publishers also turn a blind eye to rampant faking of results -?

                  Regardless, in this particular case pet food companies are exactly who would be most interested in pinpointing which protein sources are most allergenic ... If they sell a food for allergies that doesn't work, people will find out very quickly. Testing like this is unlikely to be in a lab anyway, it would be done with owned cats through a study. The paper citing beef, dairy, fish as the 3 most common allergens in cats is from Belgian researchers, FWIW.

                  Also, based on the previous argument on protein being more complete and complex, it makes sense that animal proteins would be the most allergenic. It doesn't mean that animal proteins are inappropriate or bad, and there are certainly many different types to choose from.

                  Again I'll mention that I feed a high-protein, meat based wet diet for my own cats, and don't have anything invested in pet food companies or the corn industry. This is just sharing information.

                  Adriann
                • Patti Thomas
                  Adriann.... I have noticed that weird A in some posts as well.  Never have figured out why. Anyway, I hope you will see this as a discussion and not an
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 2, 2012
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                    Adriann....

                    I have noticed that weird 'A' in some posts as well.  Never have figured out why.

                    Anyway, I hope you will see this as a discussion and not an "argument".   In response to your comment ....  
                    " in this particular case pet food companies are exactly who would be most interested in pinpointing which protein sources are most allergenic"

                    I strongly disagree.  It is the veteranarians who should be involved in conducting  these studies.  Independent of all pet food manufactures.   

                    Here is one vet  (there are others) who has decided to think outside the box and do her own independent study resulting in very valuable information.  

                    http://www.catinfo.org/


                    And another really good link to read about commercial pet foods:

                    http://www.rawfedcats.org/toxic.htm


                    I have no personal investment in what anyone feeds their cat.  It is a personal decision.  I am just offering infomation from the other side of the coin.

                    Patti


                    ________________________________
                    From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:44 AM
                    Subject: Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


                     


                    I wonder if I have something wrong in my settings because some people's posts come up with a weird "A" scattered throughout ...

                    Anyway ...

                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                    > The problem with trying to gain sufficient protein for obligate carnivores, from a vegetable source, is that vegetables are an incomplete protein.  Meat has all of the essential amino acids to make a complete protein.  Twenty two, I believe.  

                    Meat varies in amino acid content, actually. Some animal meat has more taurine or less taurine, for example, and may or may not have XYZ amino acid in sufficient quantity or at all. (Eggs are supposed to be the most complete protein source IIRC). I have not seen a cat food that contains only corn as a source of protein anyway -- it is used in combo with other proteins, and is usually in cat foods as an adjunct protein and a source of EFAs.

                    >  Vegetables have only one or two of the essential amino acids. 

                    Vegetables with usable protein (like corn) have more than two amino acids. I think corn has maybe 8 or so? But it doesn't have all of the necessary-for-life amino acids for cats, that's why it's used in combo with other sources.

                    >  Starches have no place in a cats diet.  Those are the culprits in cat diabetes and obesity.

                    I agree that high carb diets make some cats fat and some cats diabetic; I really blame dry food in general. It's very annoying (and rather silly) that so many of these expensive "grain free" dry foods are made instead with simple sugar starches, potatoes and tapioca. I think cats do best on a wet diet that is high-protein too.

                    > Most all of the documentation of food allergies in animals is done by pet food companines.

                    What does this mean? That it's not valid? I see an awful lot of snark on the internet and on message boards about studies funded by the pet food companies, which I guess is supposed to mean that the researchers accepting this money are corrupt and lacking in academic integrity; that they skew the results as they are told to; and that the peer reviewers and medical journal publishers also turn a blind eye to rampant faking of results -?

                    Regardless, in this particular case pet food companies are exactly who would be most interested in pinpointing which protein sources are most allergenic ... If they sell a food for allergies that doesn't work, people will find out very quickly. Testing like this is unlikely to be in a lab anyway, it would be done with owned cats through a study. The paper citing beef, dairy, fish as the 3 most common allergens in cats is from Belgian researchers, FWIW.

                    Also, based on the previous argument on protein being more complete and complex, it makes sense that animal proteins would be the most allergenic. It doesn't mean that animal proteins are inappropriate or bad, and there are certainly many different types to choose from.

                    Again I'll mention that I feed a high-protein, meat based wet diet for my own cats, and don't have anything invested in pet food companies or the corn industry. This is just sharing information.

                    Adriann




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Patti Thomas
                    Why can t a company organize a study? Who should organize it ? I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 2, 2012
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                      "Why can't a company organize a study? Who should organize it"?


                      I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  Then, vets can dictate to the pet food companies what is proper nutrition, instead of the reverse.  The most education in nutrition the majority of vet students get is from the classes that are taught by companies such as Hills (Science Diet).  That seems like the tail wagging the dog.

                      A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  If vet students were taught by veterinary nutritional specialist using something besides commercial pet foods as the only option for feeding, I might be able to agree that it is not tainted.  

                      "If you tell someone 'corn has no protein and is not digestible' and they bring that argument to their vet, their vet easily dismisses it and can show that corn is indeed highly digestible and a source of protein".  


                      I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?  

                      Not every vet would disagree that corn is not for feline diets.  I have met and discussed this with numerous vets who absolutely agree it has no place in the diet.  Along with other grains.  I suppose it's who one talks to as to what answer will be given.  I have talked to vets from many different areas, who strongly endorse homemade diets (whether cooked or raw) over commercial pet foods.    


                      Just because a veterinarian who has been educated in nutrition by Hills representatives says corn is OK, means very little to me.  Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

                      http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=717422


                      Corn is for humans, cows and other animals that are not obligate carnivores.  With the alarming rate of feline diabetes, IBD, obesity, allergies, PKD, male urinary cystals, and thyroid disease, it would be difficult for me to believe that our cats are being fed properly through commercial diets.  The poor suffering animal is put on one type of commercial diet after the other, in an attempt to correct the problem.  Often with only temporary relief.   

                      And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.  

                      It only takes a small amount of research to see that the delicious choice cuts of beef, tender chicken, and all of the other labels on pet foods, is indeed "marketing" and not factual.  The amounts of recent recalls and toxic, deadly tainted pet foods, should be a sure awakening.


                      Patti


                      ________________________________

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                      Hi Patti I ve tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 3, 2012
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                        Hi Patti

                        I've tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post on the subject.

                        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                        > I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  

                        IF you can find a state or veterinary school that receives state funding who will fund studies on companion animal nutrition, that would be great. As is I don't think states or schools have that in their budget, so as in other parts of a capitalist economy, industry funds research.

                        Just for the record, too, lay people from Hills are not teaching classes. Hills and other companies employ both veterinarians and residency-trained board certified veterinary nutritionists, however.

                        > A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  

                        That would be great. It would be a massive undertaking but if someone can figure out private funding (I think government funding is out of the question), there would be some eager participants and we'd all get some great info from it.

                        > I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?

                        Um, you said corn and other grains have little to no protein. :) Yes, anyone who looks can show otherwise. That's how the discussion started, I replied with some facts about corn and other grains.

                         
                        > Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

                        There are articles and there are articles. The one you linked to is a regular old journalism-style article; what is this, how is it made, why should it work, etc. This is different than a research article proofed and vetted (not to make a pun) by a reputable medical journal which has a peer-review system. The first type, anyone can write based on one's own thoughts or, as the author in your example did, based on a multitude of peer-reviewed research articles. The second type is written by researchers, usually in academia but also based on research in a clinical setting. It is an extremely serious charge to say that these authors would falsify results or change answers based on who funded their research, etc.



                        > And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.

                        I'm sure you didn't intend this to sound so condescending re: the veterinarians and veterinary specialists and PhDs who perform research and publish papers. I don't think it's possible, with the 12+ years of post-secondary education they have on average, that they were unable in all of that time to peek outside of a Hill's box (or bag, as it may be) i.e. have ideas other than what has been presented to them. That's sort of the thing about researchers, taking what's been presented and then figuring out what else hasn't been known, documented, thought of, or had its validity questioned. I think that it's pretty much impossible not to think beyond the can or bag.

                        That's all, sorry to everyone for the tangent. I think it's important to have a scientific footing when speaking about health issues. And yes again, for the record, I advocate and feed my own cats a high protein, meat based diet and no, I've never bought Hills. :)

                        Adriann
                         
                      • Patti Thomas
                        I guess I didn t realize discussing good nutrition, as opposed to illness and medications, was considered tangential and OT .   Interesting.    I too,
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 4, 2012
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                          I guess I didn't realize discussing good nutrition, as opposed to illness and medications, was considered "tangential" and "OT".   Interesting.   

                          I too, was just trying to share info that may or may not have been helpful.  Sorry if I rocked everyones world.  That was not my intention.  

                          Crawling back in my lurking hole now.

                          Patti


                          ________________________________
                          From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 2:03 AM
                          Subject: Re: [FH] Possible connection - Heart Disease , Inflammation and Food Allergy


                           
                          Hi Patti

                          I've tried to share some info, and that may or may not have been helpful to any readers; this is tangential and OT anyway so this will be my last post on the subject.

                          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Patti Thomas <tpatti54@...> wrote:
                          > I guess I would far rather see state funded veterinarian schools organizing the studies to educate their students independent of pet food industry.  

                          IF you can find a state or veterinary school that receives state funding who will fund studies on companion animal nutrition, that would be great. As is I don't think states or schools have that in their budget, so as in other parts of a capitalist economy, industry funds research.

                          Just for the record, too, lay people from Hills are not teaching classes. Hills and other companies employ both veterinarians and residency-trained board certified veterinary nutritionists, however.

                          > A true independent study for educational purposes, should include all types of diets, from dry, canned, to homemade wet, and raw.  

                          That would be great. It would be a massive undertaking but if someone can figure out private funding (I think government funding is out of the question), there would be some eager participants and we'd all get some great info from it.

                          > I don't think anyone said corn does not have any protein, just not nearly enough.  How is the vet going to show someone otherwise?

                          Um, you said corn and other grains have little to no protein. :) Yes, anyone who looks can show otherwise. That's how the discussion started, I replied with some facts about corn and other grains.

                           
                          > Even many of the articles on animal nutrition written by DVM's are sponsered by the pet food companies.  For example this one endorsed and sponsered by Purina.

                          There are articles and there are articles. The one you linked to is a regular old journalism-style article; what is this, how is it made, why should it work, etc. This is different than a research article proofed and vetted (not to make a pun) by a reputable medical journal which has a peer-review system. The first type, anyone can write based on one's own thoughts or, as the author in your example did, based on a multitude of peer-reviewed research articles. The second type is written by researchers, usually in academia but also based on research in a clinical setting. It is an extremely serious charge to say that these authors would falsify results or change answers based on who funded their research, etc.

                          > And no, I am not saying "  that all of the PhDs/DVMs  involved are corrupt, all the studies are worthless"   ...... I simply feel they have not been given the opportunity to an education that is well rounded in all types of pet feeding, (including those that are homemade, grain and vegetable free), and therefore only work within the perimeters of what has been presented to them.

                          I'm sure you didn't intend this to sound so condescending re: the veterinarians and veterinary specialists and PhDs who perform research and publish papers. I don't think it's possible, with the 12+ years of post-secondary education they have on average, that they were unable in all of that time to peek outside of a Hill's box (or bag, as it may be) i.e. have ideas other than what has been presented to them. That's sort of the thing about researchers, taking what's been presented and then figuring out what else hasn't been known, documented, thought of, or had its validity questioned. I think that it's pretty much impossible not to think beyond the can or bag.

                          That's all, sorry to everyone for the tangent. I think it's important to have a scientific footing when speaking about health issues. And yes again, for the record, I advocate and feed my own cats a high protein, meat based diet and no, I've never bought Hills. :)

                          Adriann
                           




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