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Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns

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  • Westgold
    Yes, this is right, Toby. No more than 10% carbs. A vegetarian diet is a lot more than that. But the problem is that a cat s digestive system is simply not
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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      Yes, this is right, Toby. No more than 10% carbs. A vegetarian diet is a lot more than that. But the problem is that a cat's digestive system is simply not designed to handle all those carbs from vegetables, rice and grains, etc. You cannot fight Mother Nature!!!

      BTW, dogs are totally different -- dogs can happily eat all those vegetables, grains, rice, etc, and be perfectly healthy. But cats of all kinds are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Toby Jones
      To: Westgold ; Jim Sinclair ; feline-heart
      Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 2:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


      From the "research" I've done, a "quality" cat food should consist of (based on dry matter analysis, food should be 70 to 78% moisture as well):


      40%+ protein from a meat source (other sources of protein may not be nutritionally available to cats in digestion).
      20-40% fat.
      10% (MAX) carbohydrates.
      Low levels of "ash", sodium, and phosphorous.


      I don't have a dog/cat in this fight, and if your cats are in optimal health on their vegetarian diet, I suppose I can't argue too loudly. From what I've read though, meat should be the only thing your cat eats. Just my two cents.




      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Westgold <westgold@...>
      To: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>; feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 10:54 AM
      Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns



      Your cats are on vegetarian diet??? I can't believe it!!! Cats are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES, that means God created them to eat ONLY MEAT. Their poor little bodies are crying out for MEAT, poor babies! Cats should be eating almost 100 protein, that is what their bodies are designed for. Their systems are not designed to properly digest and use all those other things. Do some research! Supplementing is not enough -- they need MEAT. They are forced to eat what you give them, please don't be so cruel to them. YOU can be vegetarian if you want, but please do not impose your beliefs on your poor cats!!

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim Sinclair
      Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research. I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience preparing and feeding
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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        Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
        I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
        preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
        reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
        veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
        indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
        is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
        family's cherished pet ducks.

        Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
        some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)

        Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
        insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.

        NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
        philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
        absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
        are in my care.

        Jim Sinclair  jisincla@...
        www.jimsinclair.org
        http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
      • Cathy Mack
        Jim, I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food?
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 3, 2011
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          Jim,

          I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian
          diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food? Was it
          that a vegan diet was superior to a meat diet? I feed my kitties a raw meat
          diet (grass feed meats, organic fowls) because I tried to replicate their
          natural diets without all the fillers. I too test my cats on a regular basis to
          make sure the taurine levels are adequate and I don't need to supplement with
          any vitamins/minerals because I'm using the whole animal (tissue, organs, muscle
          and bones). In all my research this is the best I can do for my kitties, but
          I'm open to your opinion on a vegan diet.

          Thanks,
          Cathy




          ________________________________
          From: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>
          To: Westgold <westgold@...>
          Cc: Toby Jones <tobythelegend@...>; feline-heart
          <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, December 2, 2011 1:21:17 PM
          Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


          Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
          I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
          preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
          reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
          veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
          indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
          is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
          family's cherished pet ducks.

          Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
          some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)

          Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
          insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.

          NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
          philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
          absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
          are in my care.

          Jim Sinclair jisincla@...
          www.jimsinclair.org
          http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Banu Korgul
          I have done a lot of research about diet of healthy cats too. I am astonished to hear that they can be fed vegetarian diets... Can you please provide anything
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 3, 2011
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            I have done a lot of research about diet of healthy cats too. I am astonished to hear that they can be fed vegetarian diets... Can you please provide anything (other then the book) like a vet university article, a conference note etc so that I can read...
            At first it sounds absolutely ridiculous and cruel, I must admit that was my first reaction too, but again I really want to ask some resources to see if I miss anything.
            I am almost becoming a vegetarian myself but I would never deprive my animals from what they need. And that is a almost 90 percent meat... As least that is the common info for decades...

            Sent via Banu's iPod touch

            On Dec 3, 2011, at 18:35, Cathy Mack <cathymack@...> wrote:

            > Jim,
            >
            > I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian
            > diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food? Was it
            > that a vegan diet was superior to a meat diet? I feed my kitties a raw meat
            > diet (grass feed meats, organic fowls) because I tried to replicate their
            > natural diets without all the fillers. I too test my cats on a regular basis to
            > make sure the taurine levels are adequate and I don't need to supplement with
            > any vitamins/minerals because I'm using the whole animal (tissue, organs, muscle
            > and bones). In all my research this is the best I can do for my kitties, but
            > I'm open to your opinion on a vegan diet.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Cathy
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>
            > To: Westgold <westgold@...>
            > Cc: Toby Jones <tobythelegend@...>; feline-heart
            > <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Fri, December 2, 2011 1:21:17 PM
            > Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns
            >
            > Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
            > I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
            > preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
            > reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
            > veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
            > indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
            > is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
            > family's cherished pet ducks.
            >
            > Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
            > some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)
            >
            > Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
            > insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.
            >
            > NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
            > philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
            > absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
            > are in my care.
            >
            > Jim Sinclair jisincla@...
            > www.jimsinclair.org
            > http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • acrocat@rocketmail.com
            Hi Zoe Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC. ... My beef with giving cats a ton of
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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              Hi Zoe

              Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@...> wrote:
              > I spoke to the cardiologist via phone(have not met yet and will not until the 3 mo. re-echo) about supplement and dietary change, about CoQ10, fish oil, l-carnitine and taurine. The only supplement my cardiologist advised was the fish oil, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 400mg a day and geriatric food for a low sodium diet.

              My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.

              The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.

              > Also, does anyone have good suggestion as to how to give precisely 400mg of fish oil omega3? I've looked up on Amazon and have only seen ones like fish oil 1000mg with 300mg omega3 in gel form.

              I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.

              > I know cats don't tend to overwork themselves and will adjust to what their body can take, but is it possible that he doesn't? Should their exercise be under a certain amount?

              If he's running around to the point that he's panting or fainting, I would be concerned that he was overworking himself. If he gets the zoomies late at night and makes a loop through the dining room and living room, I wouldn't worry about it. Some cats are way too find of the feather toy or laser light and will over-exert themselves so I'd stay away from anything that is too irresistible. He can play with his toys on his own but shouldn't be incited to exert himself, does that make sense?

              > Does anyone know if their sodium levels are appropriate for HCM cats? I plan on writing the companies but am also going to shop this weekend for geriatric food to be safe.

              You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).

              > Sorry my post is so long and rambly and full of question marks and everywhere.

              Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.

              Take care
              Adriann
            • ERIC LEE
              You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.



                ________________________________
                From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 10:22 AM
                Subject: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


                 
                Hi Zoe

                Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@...> wrote:
                > I spoke to the cardiologist via phone(have not met yet and will not until the 3 mo. re-echo) about supplement and dietary change, about CoQ10, fish oil, l-carnitine and taurine. The only supplement my cardiologist advised was the fish oil, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 400mg a day and geriatric food for a low sodium diet.

                My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.

                The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.

                > Also, does anyone have good suggestion as to how to give precisely 400mg of fish oil omega3? I've looked up on Amazon and have only seen ones like fish oil 1000mg with 300mg omega3 in gel form.

                I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.

                > I know cats don't tend to overwork themselves and will adjust to what their body can take, but is it possible that he doesn't? Should their exercise be under a certain amount?

                If he's running around to the point that he's panting or fainting, I would be concerned that he was overworking himself. If he gets the zoomies late at night and makes a loop through the dining room and living room, I wouldn't worry about it. Some cats are way too find of the feather toy or laser light and will over-exert themselves so I'd stay away from anything that is too irresistible. He can play with his toys on his own but shouldn't be incited to exert himself, does that make sense?

                > Does anyone know if their sodium levels are appropriate for HCM cats? I plan on writing the companies but am also going to shop this weekend for geriatric food to be safe.

                You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).

                > Sorry my post is so long and rambly and full of question marks and everywhere.

                Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.

                Take care
                Adriann




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                Eric ... ? Is this directed at me? What s scary? No one has said CoQ10 is bad.
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                  Eric

                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.


                  ? Is this directed at me? What's scary? No one has said CoQ10 is bad.
                • Carol
                  I know that there is no official research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I ve spoken with my own cat s cardiologist and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                    I know that there is no "official" research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I've spoken with my own cat's cardiologist and several other holistic veterinarians, and they all have approved of using coQ10 for cats. Many vets just aren't familiar with it, and even if you give them info about it, they're not usually going to agree with the benefits of it, because it's just out of their realm of education.

                    I've been giving my cats and dogs with heart problems coQ10 for over 20 years, and I do believe it helped keep them healthier longer than had I not used it.

                    Carol and the gang



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
                    To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:13 am
                    Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns





                    You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Judi Levens
                    I agree Carol...I believe that Max survived 3.5 years after dx because he was getting supplements like CQ10 and nattokinasse. My husband and I now take it
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                      I agree Carol...I believe that Max survived 3.5 years after dx because he was getting supplements like CQ10 and nattokinasse. My husband and I now take it also! Don't worry Eric, you are helping your baby...good luck...Judi and Angel Max




                      To: pray4animals@...; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      From: carolroar@...
                      Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 14:11:42 -0500
                      Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns




























                      I know that there is no "official" research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I've spoken with my own cat's cardiologist and several other holistic veterinarians, and they all have approved of using coQ10 for cats. Many vets just aren't familiar with it, and even if you give them info about it, they're not usually going to agree with the benefits of it, because it's just out of their realm of education.



                      I've been giving my cats and dogs with heart problems coQ10 for over 20 years, and I do believe it helped keep them healthier longer than had I not used it.



                      Carol and the gang



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>

                      To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>

                      Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:13 am

                      Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns



                      You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • acidsoda
                      Thanks Adriann :) ... I don t mind at all. I find most posts here informative. ... Yes, I live in NYC! Please do let me know who you recommend. I want to get
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                        Thanks Adriann :)


                        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Zoe
                        >
                        > Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :)


                        I don't mind at all. I find most posts here informative.


                        >Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.


                        Yes, I live in NYC! Please do let me know who you recommend. I want to get my other cat check out as well for noisy breathing.


                        >
                        > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@> wrote:
                        > My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.


                        I give pills with treats and Ziggy is already disliking it and getting suspicious about every treat in my hand. I blame it on Plavix. Now I'm moving onto disassociating treats with Plavix.


                        >
                        > The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.
                        >
                        > I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.


                        Neither my cardiologist or regular vet think I need to care for Ziggy any differently. Every changes that I made for him post ER were the result of me bringing up questions or concerns or req for advice, neither of them took initiative on offering one. I guess in a way it's also for my own peace of mind to know that I am doing the what I could or provide something extra that might give the possibility of better health in long run.

                        The amount the cardiologist gave was based on Ziggy's weight(He's a big boy :). I'm glad I haven't decided what brand to get him yet because I would probably had put all 400mg in there in one day. I will definitely remember to start bit by bit when I do.

                        >
                        > You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).


                        I don't mean to sound dumb, do I ask for % sodium on a dry matter basis for both wet and dry food?


                        >
                        > Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.


                        Haha, yep, I did not know how to reply to group! I hope I am doing this one right.


                        >
                        > Take care
                        > Adriann
                        >
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