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New Diagnosis & Concerns

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  • acidsoda
    Hi all, My 9 year old tabby, Ziggy, just got diagnosed with HCM and asthma almost 2 weeks ago. He is currently taking Lasix, Plavix and Enalapril, the latter
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2011
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      Hi all,

      My 9 year old tabby, Ziggy, just got diagnosed with HCM and asthma almost 2 weeks ago. He is currently taking Lasix, Plavix and Enalapril, the latter two he just started a day ago. I tried to read info on HCM but am not too sure if I've absorbed them all and not too sure if I'm doing everything I could.

      I spoke to the cardiologist via phone(have not met yet and will not until the 3 mo. re-echo) about supplement and dietary change, about CoQ10, fish oil, l-carnitine and taurine. The only supplement my cardiologist advised was the fish oil, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 400mg a day and geriatric food for a low sodium diet. When I mentioned CoQ10, she dismissed it saying that there weren't any substantial research to prove that CoQ10 helps and that l-carnitine and taurine are not for Hypertrophic condition. I know there are research that say good things about CoQ10 and there are ones that indicate there are conflicting evidence on the benefits on heart disease. I'm a bit conflicted as to whether I should or should not give? There seems to be no major side effect on giving and if it might help, should I just give it a go?

      Also, does anyone have good suggestion as to how to give precisely 400mg of fish oil omega3? I've looked up on Amazon and have only seen ones like fish oil 1000mg with 300mg omega3 in gel form.

      Ziggy seems to have fully recovered from CHF, asthma and URI/FHV and is now very stable. He eats well and play hard like how he always has. He's been running around quite a bit for the past 3 nights which got me a little worried about too much exercise. I know cats don't tend to overwork themselves and will adjust to what their body can take, but is it possible that he doesn't? Should their exercise be under a certain amount?

      Ziggy is right now mainly on canned food diet, he eats from Wellness, Merrick's, by Nature Organic and Hollistic Select. He eats little dry food when he feels like it which are from Halo & Wellness. No sodium amount is indicated on any of them. Does anyone know if their sodium levels are appropriate for HCM cats? I plan on writing the companies but am also going to shop this weekend for geriatric food to be safe.

      Can anyone suggest a good regular vet that is familiar with HCM in NY? I'm in the process of finding another vet because the one that my cats currently go to seems to be only good for check up when nothing big is wrong. The first doctor Ziggy had didn't recognize his enlarged heart in the x-ray therefore delayed the treatment. We also had never been suggested for an ultrasound to make sure his heart murmur is fine and we didn't know better at the time either. The second we have at the same hospital after ER, just seem awful at explaining things and more. After Ziggy was discharged from the ER, we were told he should get another x-ray and a CBC for kidney value and also red bloodcell count because he was mildly anemic(non-regenerative). The second doctor did only a presurgical blood screen in office, said since Ziggy is BARELY anemic it shouldn't be something we need to test at this time and that x-ray at this point is not necessary. He didn't even try to listen to his heart or take his temp. or touch him at all. When I told him that Ziggy's respiratory rate when he is calm and at rest/not sleeping is around 25-30, his response was "that is still too high" so that didn't make me feel comfortable either.

      Sorry my post is so long and rambly and full of question marks and everywhere.

      Best,
      Zoe
    • joanne marbut
      First, this will be a busy and confusing time for you. You ll need patience and a few deep breaths. You need to be organized.  I recommend a good pill cutter.
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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        First, this will be a busy and confusing time for you. You'll need patience and a few deep breaths. You need to be organized.  I recommend a good pill cutter. Do not use a knife. Then you might need a pill box of some sort so that you know what the cat receives when. For example, my cat receives five meds in the a.m., one at lunch, three in the evening. I cut up all the pills in the a.m. and separate them for the dosing for the day into a pill box.  

        In human studies, COQ10 was shown to be effective. I give my cat COQ10 and I'm pretty sure that's the reason the condition of the heart saw an improvement last year after being on it for two months.  I use Nature Made COQ10 gel capsules and I pierce the capsule, squeeze out the orange goo and mix it in her food. There is nothing wrong in giving the cat COQ10. I would watch to see if it causes any upset stomach issues or loose stool and I would watch that also with the fish oil. There is nothing wrong in use either or both. My cat doesn't like fish oil.  There are many forms and makers of fish oil and COQ10. Don't try to give 400 mg of fish oil at once. It's too much to take at once, it stinks, and it will cause loose stools for sure at that amount daily.  You could try piercing it, squeezing out a few drops into the food, then placing it in a cup w/lid or a baggie to use again later but it's messy. Ascenta makes a fish oil that has no smell nor
        particular fish oil taste. 

        Taurine is already in cat food but again, there's no reason not to give more. It's just that over time, as your cat is on more meds more often, you might want to cut out what is given that isn't necessary.  My cat also receives a vitamin paste by Excel and lysine by Viralys in a pump.

        Your cat will also need water mixed in the food and the cat should only be eating wet food with a small amount of dry food, treats given in a day. The cat doesn't necessarily need low sodium food.  You can look up product info online and the details should list the sodium.  Due to the lasix draining the body of fluids and therefore of electrolytes, your cat may need to eat regular sodium food in order to keep up levels of sodium in the body. My cat was eating Fancy Feast but developed crystals recently and is now eating Royal Canine SO. Another good food is Max found at Petco (maybe elsewhere.)  Likewise, the cat might need a potassium supplement since the lasix drains the body of potassium and I use Sunrise potassium tablets of which I give 3/4 of one over three meals a day to my cat. Potassium is needed to allow better functioning of the body and especially the kidneys. Many HCM cats develop CRF because of potassium defeciency and the effect of
        lasix on the body.  Another way to prevent potassium defiency is to give the cat Spironolactone which is another diuretic but helps to retain some potassium. 

        The cat may need to have a lower heart rate so that the heart isn't beating so hard or working so hard. If so, the doctor may place it on atenolol. 

        Let the cat play but monitor activity. If you think it's been running or jumping too much, take away the toy for a break and let the cat rest. Cats will breathe hard after a lot of play but don't let the cat overdo it. However, some cats are good at self-monitoring and will stop when they need a break. Try also not to let kids or other pets, or noise upset the cat. If you have work done on or in the house, remove the cat from that area. When it storms, close the curtains, draw the shades, and if need be, take the cat to the basement until the worse is over and break it's concentration on the storm with treats. I've done that a few times in the summer with my cat. The cat needs calmness and routine now. And it needs to stay cool in the summer and warm in the winter. Turn up the heat. Lay out more blankets or rugs. In the summer, run the AC a bit cooler than normal or get a window AC. Don't let the cat become too cold or too warm. This will cause stress
        and potentially bring on a CHF reaction.

        As for NY vets, ask Cornell University. Maybe they can make recommendations.  You need a vet who will listen to you and help you figure things out and allow you to bounce ideas off of them and put pieces of the puzzle together. However, it's the cardiologist that you'll need the most. While my HCM cat has a decent regular vet, it's the cardiologist that we see every three months and whom I call with questions even when my cat developed crystals. My cardiologist is a wonderful woman who is patient, kind, and not condescending. I tell her what I notice in my cat, how I think she's reacting to meds, to things, and I tell her what I think is happening and what are my concerns.  She's good at piecing together the puzzle pieces and coming up with possible reasons for what I see. What I see helps her understand the cat and the cat's reaction to HCM. You need someone who will listen and not tell you that "that's not what you're seeing" or "that's not what is
        going on".   The heart rate should be low about 130-140 but check with a cardiologist. My cat's rate is 130 due to the meds but she tolerates that well-meaning she's functioning normally and it's not slowing her down and clots are not forming in the heart. The breathing rate should be around 20-40 for normal cats so I think 20-25 is fine for yours. Body temps should be 100-102+.

        I have a Facebook page for HCM cats and I have a blog for my cat. Feel free to read them and to search the blog archives for more info.    http://myrnaloycardiomyopathy.blogspot.com/?spref=fb

        Good luck!

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Toby Jones
        Hi Zoe, I can do my best to attempt to answer some of your questions.  Keep in mind that I am not a vet.  I did, however, care for my cat with HCM for 4+
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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          Hi Zoe,

          I can do my best to attempt to answer some of your questions.  Keep in mind that I am not a vet.  I did, however, care for my cat with HCM for 4+ years.  The following is based on my understanding of things.

          1. Taurine is essential for heart function in humans as well as cats.  In the years past (80's?) not all foods had sufficient Taurine, and so some cats developed heart issues.  Any food that you feed now should be fine.

          2. Many veterinarians and other science based professionals won't make recommendations for things if they're not research based and published in peer-reviewed journals.  That being said, many people here have used Coq10 for their HCM cats without any adverse side effects.  Benefits?  Maybe?  Most of us feel that if it's not doing harm, it's worth trying.

          3. Regarding food, I've spent about 20 hours in the last two weeks researching cat food.  My personal recommendations, based on levels of protein, fat, carbs, phosphorous, and sodium would be to feed ONLY canned food and to feed "Wellness Turkey", "Wellness Chicken", and "INNOVA Evo Turkey & Chicken Cat and Kitten".  One of my few regrets with my HCM cat was that I did not realize what a critical role nutrition played with cats at that time.

          I can't help you with vet recommendations, I'm on the west coast.  Post any other questions you may have, we're happy to help here!

          Ryan 


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim Sinclair
          ... Actually, according to Clipsy s cardiologist, too much taurine can cause gastrointestinal upset. That s probably not a concern for cats on regular
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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            On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:53 AM, joanne marbut <jomarbut@...> wrote:

            > Taurine is already in cat food but again, there's no reason not to give more.

            Actually, according to Clipsy's cardiologist, too much taurine can
            cause gastrointestinal upset. That's probably not a concern for cats
            on regular commercial cat foods. My cats are on a vegetarian diet made
            with Vegecat supplement, which contains taurine, but still when I
            found out my vegetarian cat had heart disease, I wanted to make sure
            it wasn't her diet at fault. I insisted on having her blood taurine
            level checked. It turned out to be not just within the reference range
            of 300-600, but actually well above reference levels at 734. When I
            asked about supplements, the cardiologist recommended firmly *against*
            adding more taurine because her level was already essentially at the
            level of a cat on a commercial diet with additional taurine
            supplementation.

            He did say that CoQ10 and L-carnitine would be fine for her, though.

            Anecdotally, after I read the articles here about CoQ10, I started
            giving it to my cat with asthma too. She seems to be healthier on it.

            Jim Sinclair  jisincla@...
            www.jimsinclair.org
            http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
          • Westgold
            Your cats are on vegetarian diet??? I can t believe it!!! Cats are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES, that means God created them to eat ONLY MEAT. Their poor little
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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              Your cats are on vegetarian diet??? I can't believe it!!! Cats are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES, that means God created them to eat ONLY MEAT. Their poor little bodies are crying out for MEAT, poor babies! Cats should be eating almost 100 protein, that is what their bodies are designed for. Their systems are not designed to properly digest and use all those other things. Do some research! Supplementing is not enough -- they need MEAT. They are forced to eat what you give them, please don't be so cruel to them. YOU can be vegetarian if you want, but please do not impose your beliefs on your poor cats!!

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Toby Jones
              From the research I ve done, a quality cat food should consist of (based on dry matter analysis, food should be 70 to 78% moisture as well): 40%+ protein
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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                From the "research" I've done, a "quality" cat food should consist of (based on dry matter analysis, food should be 70 to 78% moisture as well):

                40%+ protein from a meat source (other sources of protein may not be nutritionally available to cats in digestion).
                20-40% fat.
                10% (MAX) carbohydrates.
                Low levels of "ash", sodium, and phosphorous.

                I don't have a dog/cat in this fight, and if your cats are in optimal health on their vegetarian diet, I suppose I can't argue too loudly.  From what I've read though, meat should be the only thing your cat eats.  Just my two cents.



                ________________________________
                From: Westgold <westgold@...>
                To: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>; feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 10:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


                 
                Your cats are on vegetarian diet??? I can't believe it!!! Cats are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES, that means God created them to eat ONLY MEAT. Their poor little bodies are crying out for MEAT, poor babies! Cats should be eating almost 100 protein, that is what their bodies are designed for. Their systems are not designed to properly digest and use all those other things. Do some research! Supplementing is not enough -- they need MEAT. They are forced to eat what you give them, please don't be so cruel to them. YOU can be vegetarian if you want, but please do not impose your beliefs on your poor cats!!

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Westgold
                Yes, this is right, Toby. No more than 10% carbs. A vegetarian diet is a lot more than that. But the problem is that a cat s digestive system is simply not
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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                  Yes, this is right, Toby. No more than 10% carbs. A vegetarian diet is a lot more than that. But the problem is that a cat's digestive system is simply not designed to handle all those carbs from vegetables, rice and grains, etc. You cannot fight Mother Nature!!!

                  BTW, dogs are totally different -- dogs can happily eat all those vegetables, grains, rice, etc, and be perfectly healthy. But cats of all kinds are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Toby Jones
                  To: Westgold ; Jim Sinclair ; feline-heart
                  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 2:37 PM
                  Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


                  From the "research" I've done, a "quality" cat food should consist of (based on dry matter analysis, food should be 70 to 78% moisture as well):


                  40%+ protein from a meat source (other sources of protein may not be nutritionally available to cats in digestion).
                  20-40% fat.
                  10% (MAX) carbohydrates.
                  Low levels of "ash", sodium, and phosphorous.


                  I don't have a dog/cat in this fight, and if your cats are in optimal health on their vegetarian diet, I suppose I can't argue too loudly. From what I've read though, meat should be the only thing your cat eats. Just my two cents.




                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  From: Westgold <westgold@...>
                  To: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>; feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 10:54 AM
                  Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns



                  Your cats are on vegetarian diet??? I can't believe it!!! Cats are OBLIGATE CARNIVORES, that means God created them to eat ONLY MEAT. Their poor little bodies are crying out for MEAT, poor babies! Cats should be eating almost 100 protein, that is what their bodies are designed for. Their systems are not designed to properly digest and use all those other things. Do some research! Supplementing is not enough -- they need MEAT. They are forced to eat what you give them, please don't be so cruel to them. YOU can be vegetarian if you want, but please do not impose your beliefs on your poor cats!!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Sinclair
                  Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research. I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience preparing and feeding
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 2, 2011
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                    Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
                    I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
                    preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
                    reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
                    veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
                    indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
                    is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
                    family's cherished pet ducks.

                    Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
                    some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)

                    Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
                    insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.

                    NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
                    philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
                    absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
                    are in my care.

                    Jim Sinclair  jisincla@...
                    www.jimsinclair.org
                    http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
                  • Cathy Mack
                    Jim, I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food?
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 3, 2011
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                      Jim,

                      I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian
                      diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food? Was it
                      that a vegan diet was superior to a meat diet? I feed my kitties a raw meat
                      diet (grass feed meats, organic fowls) because I tried to replicate their
                      natural diets without all the fillers. I too test my cats on a regular basis to
                      make sure the taurine levels are adequate and I don't need to supplement with
                      any vitamins/minerals because I'm using the whole animal (tissue, organs, muscle
                      and bones). In all my research this is the best I can do for my kitties, but
                      I'm open to your opinion on a vegan diet.

                      Thanks,
                      Cathy




                      ________________________________
                      From: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>
                      To: Westgold <westgold@...>
                      Cc: Toby Jones <tobythelegend@...>; feline-heart
                      <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, December 2, 2011 1:21:17 PM
                      Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


                      Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
                      I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
                      preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
                      reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
                      veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
                      indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
                      is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
                      family's cherished pet ducks.

                      Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
                      some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)

                      Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
                      insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.

                      NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
                      philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
                      absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
                      are in my care.

                      Jim Sinclair jisincla@...
                      www.jimsinclair.org
                      http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Banu Korgul
                      I have done a lot of research about diet of healthy cats too. I am astonished to hear that they can be fed vegetarian diets... Can you please provide anything
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 3, 2011
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                        I have done a lot of research about diet of healthy cats too. I am astonished to hear that they can be fed vegetarian diets... Can you please provide anything (other then the book) like a vet university article, a conference note etc so that I can read...
                        At first it sounds absolutely ridiculous and cruel, I must admit that was my first reaction too, but again I really want to ask some resources to see if I miss anything.
                        I am almost becoming a vegetarian myself but I would never deprive my animals from what they need. And that is a almost 90 percent meat... As least that is the common info for decades...

                        Sent via Banu's iPod touch

                        On Dec 3, 2011, at 18:35, Cathy Mack <cathymack@...> wrote:

                        > Jim,
                        >
                        > I would be interested in knowing what was your decision in feeding a vegatarian
                        > diet to your kitties. Was it a distrust of commercially made cat food? Was it
                        > that a vegan diet was superior to a meat diet? I feed my kitties a raw meat
                        > diet (grass feed meats, organic fowls) because I tried to replicate their
                        > natural diets without all the fillers. I too test my cats on a regular basis to
                        > make sure the taurine levels are adequate and I don't need to supplement with
                        > any vitamins/minerals because I'm using the whole animal (tissue, organs, muscle
                        > and bones). In all my research this is the best I can do for my kitties, but
                        > I'm open to your opinion on a vegan diet.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Cathy
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>
                        > To: Westgold <westgold@...>
                        > Cc: Toby Jones <tobythelegend@...>; feline-heart
                        > <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, December 2, 2011 1:21:17 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns
                        >
                        > Yes, my cats are on a vegetarian diet. Yes, I did plenty of research.
                        > I also have at this point more than 25 years of personal experience
                        > preparing and feeding a vegetarian (mostly vegan but when I can get
                        > reliably humanely sourced eggs, I do) diet to cats. Yes, my
                        > veterinarian is fully aware of their diet and is attentive to any
                        > indication of diet-related issues with their health. My veterinarian
                        > is also my current supplier of humanely sourced eggs, from her
                        > family's cherished pet ducks.
                        >
                        > Check out the Vegecat supplements and recipes. They've been around for
                        > some 25 years. (Evolution is more suspect. I don't trust them.)
                        >
                        > Read the book titled _Obligate Carnivore_ by Jed Gillen for some
                        > insights on what "obligate carnivore" actually means.
                        >
                        > NO I AM ***NOT*** being cruel to my cats. You're entitled to your
                        > philosophical opinion about what cats "should" be eating, but you have
                        > absolutely no grounds for accusing me of cruelty to the animals who
                        > are in my care.
                        >
                        > Jim Sinclair jisincla@...
                        > www.jimsinclair.org
                        > http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                        Hi Zoe Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC. ... My beef with giving cats a ton of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                          Hi Zoe

                          Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.

                          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@...> wrote:
                          > I spoke to the cardiologist via phone(have not met yet and will not until the 3 mo. re-echo) about supplement and dietary change, about CoQ10, fish oil, l-carnitine and taurine. The only supplement my cardiologist advised was the fish oil, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 400mg a day and geriatric food for a low sodium diet.

                          My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.

                          The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.

                          > Also, does anyone have good suggestion as to how to give precisely 400mg of fish oil omega3? I've looked up on Amazon and have only seen ones like fish oil 1000mg with 300mg omega3 in gel form.

                          I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.

                          > I know cats don't tend to overwork themselves and will adjust to what their body can take, but is it possible that he doesn't? Should their exercise be under a certain amount?

                          If he's running around to the point that he's panting or fainting, I would be concerned that he was overworking himself. If he gets the zoomies late at night and makes a loop through the dining room and living room, I wouldn't worry about it. Some cats are way too find of the feather toy or laser light and will over-exert themselves so I'd stay away from anything that is too irresistible. He can play with his toys on his own but shouldn't be incited to exert himself, does that make sense?

                          > Does anyone know if their sodium levels are appropriate for HCM cats? I plan on writing the companies but am also going to shop this weekend for geriatric food to be safe.

                          You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).

                          > Sorry my post is so long and rambly and full of question marks and everywhere.

                          Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.

                          Take care
                          Adriann
                        • ERIC LEE
                          You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                            You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.



                            ________________________________
                            From: "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...>
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 10:22 AM
                            Subject: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns


                             
                            Hi Zoe

                            Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :) Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.

                            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@...> wrote:
                            > I spoke to the cardiologist via phone(have not met yet and will not until the 3 mo. re-echo) about supplement and dietary change, about CoQ10, fish oil, l-carnitine and taurine. The only supplement my cardiologist advised was the fish oil, Omega 3 Fatty Acid 400mg a day and geriatric food for a low sodium diet.

                            My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.

                            The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.

                            > Also, does anyone have good suggestion as to how to give precisely 400mg of fish oil omega3? I've looked up on Amazon and have only seen ones like fish oil 1000mg with 300mg omega3 in gel form.

                            I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.

                            > I know cats don't tend to overwork themselves and will adjust to what their body can take, but is it possible that he doesn't? Should their exercise be under a certain amount?

                            If he's running around to the point that he's panting or fainting, I would be concerned that he was overworking himself. If he gets the zoomies late at night and makes a loop through the dining room and living room, I wouldn't worry about it. Some cats are way too find of the feather toy or laser light and will over-exert themselves so I'd stay away from anything that is too irresistible. He can play with his toys on his own but shouldn't be incited to exert himself, does that make sense?

                            > Does anyone know if their sodium levels are appropriate for HCM cats? I plan on writing the companies but am also going to shop this weekend for geriatric food to be safe.

                            You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).

                            > Sorry my post is so long and rambly and full of question marks and everywhere.

                            Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.

                            Take care
                            Adriann




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                            Eric ... ? Is this directed at me? What s scary? No one has said CoQ10 is bad.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                              Eric

                              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.


                              ? Is this directed at me? What's scary? No one has said CoQ10 is bad.
                            • Carol
                              I know that there is no official research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I ve spoken with my own cat s cardiologist and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                                I know that there is no "official" research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I've spoken with my own cat's cardiologist and several other holistic veterinarians, and they all have approved of using coQ10 for cats. Many vets just aren't familiar with it, and even if you give them info about it, they're not usually going to agree with the benefits of it, because it's just out of their realm of education.

                                I've been giving my cats and dogs with heart problems coQ10 for over 20 years, and I do believe it helped keep them healthier longer than had I not used it.

                                Carol and the gang



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>
                                To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:13 am
                                Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns





                                You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Judi Levens
                                I agree Carol...I believe that Max survived 3.5 years after dx because he was getting supplements like CQ10 and nattokinasse. My husband and I now take it
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
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                                  I agree Carol...I believe that Max survived 3.5 years after dx because he was getting supplements like CQ10 and nattokinasse. My husband and I now take it also! Don't worry Eric, you are helping your baby...good luck...Judi and Angel Max




                                  To: pray4animals@...; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: carolroar@...
                                  Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 14:11:42 -0500
                                  Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns




























                                  I know that there is no "official" research on cats, but I do know from my own experience that it does help, and I've spoken with my own cat's cardiologist and several other holistic veterinarians, and they all have approved of using coQ10 for cats. Many vets just aren't familiar with it, and even if you give them info about it, they're not usually going to agree with the benefits of it, because it's just out of their realm of education.



                                  I've been giving my cats and dogs with heart problems coQ10 for over 20 years, and I do believe it helped keep them healthier longer than had I not used it.



                                  Carol and the gang



                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: ERIC LEE <pray4animals@...>

                                  To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>

                                  Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:13 am

                                  Subject: Re: [FH] Re: New Diagnosis & Concerns



                                  You are scaring me. I have been giving my little one Cardiostrength for 6 months now. It is a supplement that has COQ10 among other things. The reviews say people think it helped their babies.



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • acidsoda
                                  Thanks Adriann :) ... I don t mind at all. I find most posts here informative. ... Yes, I live in NYC! Please do let me know who you recommend. I want to get
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 5, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks Adriann :)


                                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acrocat@..." <acrocat@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Zoe
                                    >
                                    > Sorry your post is getting derailed into a diet debate :)


                                    I don't mind at all. I find most posts here informative.


                                    >Are you in NYC or upstate NY? I know some vets in NYC.


                                    Yes, I live in NYC! Please do let me know who you recommend. I want to get my other cat check out as well for noisy breathing.


                                    >
                                    > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "acidsoda" <r17re@> wrote:
                                    > My beef with giving cats a ton of supplements is that cats dislike being pilled, and also can become averse to eating "tainted" food if you try to mix the supplements in. I think the battle to give pills should be over lifesaving meds like the lasix and enalapril, not over a supplement that is not directly indicated.


                                    I give pills with treats and Ziggy is already disliking it and getting suspicious about every treat in my hand. I blame it on Plavix. Now I'm moving onto disassociating treats with Plavix.


                                    >
                                    > The research on CoQ10 is in humans, who generally have different types of heart disease than cats. If you can get your cat to eat it without an issue, fine, but if you are having to forcibily pill him, no way. There are plenty of people who have given CoQ10 and had their cats do poorly (not due to the CoQ10, just because of their heart condition); there are a few who will pipe up and say that CoQ10 has saved their cat. It's your call if you want to give it a try.
                                    >
                                    > I don't think your cardiologist meant to assign you a precise amount. The range for cats is wide, so if you give 350 or 450 I think you're safe ... You can ask the cardiologist when you meet her, but as it wasn't prescribed she didn't feel it was essential (I assume). Getting a liquid gelatin capsule into a cat is a chore, and having to puncture it and put it in the food is also a chore, so I'd get a liquid one and start with just a drop in the food and work your way up. I have heard of a few cats who love the taste and are happy to have it in their food, but most need to get used to it bit by bit.


                                    Neither my cardiologist or regular vet think I need to care for Ziggy any differently. Every changes that I made for him post ER were the result of me bringing up questions or concerns or req for advice, neither of them took initiative on offering one. I guess in a way it's also for my own peace of mind to know that I am doing the what I could or provide something extra that might give the possibility of better health in long run.

                                    The amount the cardiologist gave was based on Ziggy's weight(He's a big boy :). I'm glad I haven't decided what brand to get him yet because I would probably had put all 400mg in there in one day. I will definitely remember to start bit by bit when I do.

                                    >
                                    > You need to call the company (number on the bag) and ask for the % sodium on a *dry matter basis*. It should be less than 0.5. Most high quality foods are lower-sodium, actually, but I've found that some fish based foods are more salty (not sure why).


                                    I don't mean to sound dumb, do I ask for % sodium on a dry matter basis for both wet and dry food?


                                    >
                                    > Write all of the rambly posts and questions that you want :) Keep in mind that if you reply on the web, you need to change the drop down box so it goes to the group rather than the individual.


                                    Haha, yep, I did not know how to reply to group! I hope I am doing this one right.


                                    >
                                    > Take care
                                    > Adriann
                                    >
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