Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Misty update - it was a clot :-(

Expand Messages
  • acrocat@rocketmail.com
    Hi Carol I m so glad she s recovered but sorry to hear that this may be a recurrent issue. Last night, did you notice if her paw pads were cold? It sounds
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 7, 2011
      Hi Carol

      I'm so glad she's recovered but sorry to hear that this may be a recurrent issue.

      Last night, did you notice if her paw pads were cold? It sounds like the neuro is saying that she had a blood clot to her brain which affected her movement, rather than an aortic thromboembolism -?

      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C.R." <carolroar@...> wrote:
      > The internist and neurologist both said maybe Misty should have been put on some kind of blood thinner, but since she wasn't and she still improved, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.

      Do they mean overnight? I just want to address this since it is a common cause of confusion. Blood thinning medication in a cat with a clot event is used in the hopes that it will prevent a clot from getting bigger -- it is not used to dissolve a clot or treat it in any other way. You probably know this, I'm just clarifying because the issue is confusing.

      > They want her to take Plavix, and we're exploring other things..
      Nattokinase and a Chinese herb (Yunnan Baiyao). Our holistic vet said the Yunnan Baiyao can also be used to dissolve clots and as a preventative measure too.

      Yunnan Baiyao (you can also find the second word spelled Pai Yao, or Paiyao) tastes and smells awful and is hard to give to cats, as a heads up. I'd also be wary of using it alongside another blood thinner. Actually I'd probably worry about using it at all, in this case.

      >Nattokinase (most of you know about, but for those who don't) is an enzyme derived from fermented soy that digests clots and prevents clots from forming...I think a better option, less side effects than the drugs.

      We actually have no idea of the long-term or even short-term side effects of Nattokinase in cats. It is not terribly well-studied in humans, and cats are often a different kettle of fish in how they process and react to drugs. This doesn't mean it can't be used, but it should be used with the full knowledge of the potential risk of using a drug that is not standardized and has no known safety research in cats.


      > She's just really, really tired.

      This is always the sour cherry on top of taking a sick cat to the vet. They need to go, but they get so stressed and worked up :( I hope you and she have a nice quiet rest tonight.

      Do you have a cardiologist? If s/he can get a look at her heart, they can tell you something about the likelihood of the clot being cardiogenic. (It's extremely unlikely to be heart related, if it went to the brain, because there are a lot of other places for a clot to get stuck before reaching the brain in a cat with typical heart disease.)

      Take care and keep us posted.
      Adriann
    • Carol
      Hi Adriann, ... Last night, did you notice if her paw pads were cold? It sounds like the neuro is saying that she had a blood clot to her brain which affected
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 8, 2011
        Hi Adriann,




        >>
        Last night, did you notice if her paw pads were cold? It sounds like the neuro is saying that she had a blood clot to her brain which affected her movement, rather than an aortic thromboembolism -?
        >>

        Actually yes, all four of her paws were cool last night. I noticed it late last night, but I'm not sure if it was because of her event or if it was that she had just been laying by the open window. I was concerned when I noticed it last night. This morning they're a little warmer, but don't feel quite "normal" to me.



        >>
        Do they mean overnight? I just want to address this since it is a common cause of confusion. Blood thinning medication in a cat with a clot event is used in the hopes that it will prevent a clot from getting bigger -- it is not used to dissolve a clot or treat it in any other way. You probably know this, I'm just clarifying because the issue is confusing.
        >>

        Yes, overnight when she was at the ER clinic. I've always been confused as to the properties of heparin too. I thought it dissolved clots, but yesterday the internist said it's just used to prevent further clot formation. So there really isn't anything that they do to get rid of the clot that's in there then? This is important info to know.



        >>
        Yunnan Baiyao (you can also find the second word spelled Pai Yao, or Paiyao) tastes and smells awful and is hard to give to cats, as a heads up. I'd also be wary of using it alongside another blood thinner. Actually I'd probably worry about using it at all, in this case.
        >>

        Yeah, the Yunnan Baiyao/Paiyao is nasty bitter. We put it in capsules and pill them with it. And I totally agree, you never use it along with other blood thinners. It's one or the other, never both. And never use it unless you have the guidance of a qualified veterinarian who's familiar with it's use and properties.


        >>
        We actually have no idea of the long-term or even short-term side effects of Nattokinase in cats. It is not terribly well-studied in humans, and cats are often a different kettle of fish in how they process and react to drugs. This doesn't mean it can't be used, but it should be used with the full knowledge of the potential risk of using a drug that is not standardized and has no known safety research in cats.
        >>

        I know that a lot of the supplements that we choose to give our heart kitties are most likely not the subject of any kind of scientific studies, but when looking for alternatives if you don't want to or can't for some reason give the proper drugs, the supplements offer an option. You all must know, though, that you use these supplements at your own risk, so do as much research as you can about the things you want to give your kitties. Here is a decent page that tells more about nattokinase.
        http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/health_nattokinase.html




        > She's just really, really tired.

        >>
        This is always the sour cherry on top of taking a sick cat to the vet. They need to go, but they get so stressed and worked up :( I hope you and she have a nice quiet rest tonight.
        >>

        Misty was a little restless, but when she finally laid down around 11:30pm, she slept really comfortably. I on the other hand... I was sleeping with one eye open all night, because I was afraid that she'd have another episode. But at 5:30am when I woke up, there was Misty laying next to me on the bed, eyes open and all bright looking! I just smiled and went back to sleep for another half hour! :-)

        >>
        Do you have a cardiologist? If s/he can get a look at her heart, they can tell you something about the likelihood of the clot being cardiogenic. (It's extremely unlikely to be heart related, if it went to the brain, because there are a lot of other places for a clot to get stuck before reaching the brain in a cat with typical heart disease.)
        >>
        Unfortunately, we don't have a cardiologist near enough. We'd have to go to UC Davis, which is at least a 3 hour drive each way. Misty couldn't make that kind of trip. Our internist is the one who has been doing her heart ultrasounds for the past year. She has specical interest in cardiology, and a few years ago when we first started going to her with Angel Snowball, we also saw a "traveling" cardiologist (who we don't see anymore/personal reasons) the week after the internist and he also did an ultrasound, and said that his findings were just about the same as our internist. So we've been having our internist take care of all of our guys' heart issues. Fortunately, the specialty clinic we go to is going to be hiring a cardiologist on staff this fall, so we're looking forward to that.

        Misty just had her cardiac workup in May, had her ultrasound too and the vet said everything looked normal. She said Misty's heart looked like the heart of a five year old cat! Except for Misty's high heart rate, which they've never been able to figure out why is there, her heart is is good shape...or so they say. But Misty does have high blood pressure (under control with her Amlodipine), hyperthyroid (taking Methimazole) and CRF, so all those things can affect the heart too I'm told.

        It's all been such a whirlwind the past few days. I'm exhausted and scared, but you all have helped a lot with your caring and prayers and very much appreciated information. Thanks so much.

        hugs,
        Carol, Misty and Angel Snowball
        and the gang



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Westgold
        Dr Oz did a segment on superfoods from Japan last year sometime. One of the foods was real Natto, the food, not the capsules. He had some there and ate some,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 8, 2011
          Dr Oz did a segment on superfoods from Japan last year sometime. One of the foods was real Natto, the food, not the capsules. He had some there and ate some, he said he was an acquired taste! But he said that everybody in Japan has some almost everyday, and this is one reason researchers believe that the Japanese people do not have as many heart attacks and strokes. You might be able to find it on his site, http://www.doctoroz.com -- just search for it

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • acrocat@rocketmail.com
          Hi Carol ... When a kitty has an ATE (saddle thrombus), the rear paw pads are usually remarkably cool -- sort of yucky feeling, honestly, since it feels cooler
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 8, 2011
            Hi Carol

            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Carol <carolroar@...> wrote:
            > Actually yes, all four of her paws were cool last night. I noticed it late last night, but I'm not sure if it was because of her event or if it was that she had just been laying by the open window.

            When a kitty has an ATE (saddle thrombus), the rear paw pads are usually remarkably cool -- sort of yucky feeling, honestly, since it feels cooler than skin should be. The paw pads turn a different color, sometimes outright blue/purple but may in the beginning just look paler than the forefoot pads. You can also extend the toe to look at the nail bed -- these are quick to turn blue. So from what you say, it sounds like it wasn't an ATE (which is good!).

            > So there really isn't anything that they do to get rid of the clot that's in there then? This is important info to know.

            No there isn't :( There is a drug called streptokinase which is used in humans, but in veterinary medicine it's not used. The trouble with using a clot-busting drug is multi-fold. One, you're breaking a clot into pieces, not instantly dissolving it, so you're sending little clot bits everywhere which *might* be absolutely fine but might not. They can get stuck elsewhere and cause pain and trauma. Another issue is that when a clot is stopping up circulation, you end up with a lot of waste products in the affected limb(s) (which would normally be cleaned out of the blood bit by bit) hitting the bloodstream in one toxic whoosh. You can google 'reperfusion syndrome' to find out more.

            Another issue is that the drug would break up all clots, not just the target clot. Again, this might be fine, but it might not. At any one moment we have lots of little clots in our body (for normal reasons and every time you bang your elbow, stub your toe, get a paper cut), for good reasons, and dissolving them all at once might not be a great idea.

            Regarding nattokinase, one thing that raises my eyebrows is the 'kinase' part of it -- a kinase is something that breaks down something else, so that concerns me. I don't want to seem anti-supplement -- as I think I've mentioned before, my late dog had liver disease and modern traditional medicine basically says "I dunno" to chronic liver disease, offering not much in the way of treatment. I did a lot of research and had him on a load of supplements which I think helped, and in the end I did not lose him to his liver disease. So there is a place for these things. To be honest, I would always be more wary in cats because they are just so picky in what they can and can't metabolize properly, and also because you can't sprinkle supplements on top of their food and expect them to wolf everything down.

            > Misty was a little restless, but when she finally laid down around 11:30pm, she slept really comfortably. I on the other hand... I was sleeping with one eye open all night,

            When my late dog hurt his back, he couldn't go up and down stairs and couldn't jump at all so that night I laid with him on blankets next to his stinky dog bed on the floor. At some point after I fell into a completely uncomfortable sleep, he said 'the heck with this' and somehow made it up on the bed. I woke up with a creaky slept-on-the-floor back to find him sprawled out and snoring on the comfy bed. :) Our level of concern and vigilance always out-matches theirs, doesn't it??


            > Fortunately, the specialty clinic we go to is going to be hiring a cardiologist on staff this fall, so we're looking forward to that.

            Are you in San Francisco? I have heard good things about the cardiologist going to work there. He's newly graduated from his residency but went through a really great program (Cornell's). That's great news, if it's who I'm thinking of.

            Fingers crossed for another good night for you two.
            Adriann
          • C.R.
            hi Adriann, ... The trouble with using a clot-busting drug is multi-fold. One, you re breaking a clot into pieces, not instantly dissolving it, so you re
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 9, 2011
              hi Adriann,


              >>
              The trouble with using a clot-busting drug is multi-fold. One, you're breaking a clot into pieces, not instantly dissolving it, so you're sending little clot bits everywhere which *might* be absolutely fine but might not. They can get stuck elsewhere and cause pain and trauma. Another issue is that when a clot is stopping up circulation, you end up with a lot of waste products in the affected limb(s) (which would normally be cleaned out of the blood bit by bit) hitting the bloodstream in one toxic whoosh. You can google 'reperfusion syndrome' to find out more.
              >>

              I worry about this aspect of the clot-busting drugs too. I didn't know what reperfusion was. I read it on a website just last night and had to look it up. Your explanation is much more understandable than what I found. Thanks for the clarification on this. I guess it's kind of like toxic overload, yes? All that waste has to go somewhere and it can't get eliminated from the body fast enough.



              > Regarding nattokinase, one thing that raises my eyebrows is the 'kinase' part of it -- a kinase is something that breaks down something else, so that concerns me.
              >>

              From what I've read and understand, and I talked to a holistic doctor about this once years ago, nattokinase doesn't just break down the clot, it actually digests it. The doctor explained it to me as something like the nattokinase is an enzyme that basically eats the clot, digests it and the waste that's left over is minimal and easy for the body to get rid of. I don't have any websites that explain it that way, and I haven't been able to even find anything written like that, but that's what he told me back then. If anyone finds anything online or in a book anywhere that supports that info, please email it to me and I'll put it in the files for everyone.

              Now more than ever, I want to do the right thing for Misty and not do anything that's going to hurt her. I want to give her the nattokinase. For now, we did start the Plavix today, but at a lower dose. We're only giving her 1/8 tablet once a day. They said to give 1/4 tablet once a day, but she's so sensitive to things, we wanted to start out cautiously. If she seems to be fine with it in a few days, we'll up it to the normal 1/4 tablet.

              I'm grateful that Misty is still here, able to walk and is eating okay and otherwise seems okay, except for that she's acting a little out of it still. She's kind of just not herself, not all in there, you know what I mean? But I'm just glad she's still here! I don't really know for sure what it was that triggered this or what it actually was for sure. A clot?....probably. But not knowing what caused it, that's the hard part, because now I keep feeling like "when is it going to happen again?" and the next time it might take her. I can't keep thinking this way. I really believe that the universe gives you what you ask for or keep thinking on, so I'm trying to think good, positive things instead of the worrying things.

              Yesterday we got an email from the neurologist that said that the xrays showed that Misty's left atrium was enlarged. So I guess that explains the why part of it. What I don't understand is that why it didn't show up like that on her ultrasound she had a couple months ago, and could it have gotten that bad and bad enough to form a clot in a couple of months? I guess so. :-(

              So I called our internist yesterday and spoke with her about what the neurologist said, and she said that she didn't really agree with that finding. I asked her if we could do another echo/ultrasound on Misty to see if anything's changed, and she said she could do it on Monday down at the clinic near our home here, so that's good. We won't have to drive far, only about 15 minutes for Misty to be in the car. So we'll know more after Monday.

              Does a clot show up on an ultrasound?

              Anyway, I guess that's it for now.

              Thanks again for all the prayers and good thoughts. Misty needs them for sure! And thanks, Adriann, for all the really great information that you share with the group. I'm so glad there are a few members here who know more of the scientific side of things.

              hugs,
              a tired Carol, Misty and Angel Snowball
              and the gang
            • Carol
              Carol, I just googled does a clot show up on an ultrasound? and received several sites to look at. You might get your answer there. carol and mellie
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 10, 2011
                Carol, I just googled "does a clot show up on an ultrasound? and received several sites to look at. You might get your answer there.

                carol and mellie

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C.R." <carolroar@...> wrote:
                >
                > hi Adriann,
                >
                >
                > >>
                > The trouble with using a clot-busting drug is multi-fold. One, you're breaking a clot into pieces, not instantly dissolving it, so you're sending little clot bits everywhere which *might* be absolutely fine but might not. They can get stuck elsewhere and cause pain and trauma. Another issue is that when a clot is stopping up circulation, you end up with a lot of waste products in the affected limb(s) (which would normally be cleaned out of the blood bit by bit) hitting the bloodstream in one toxic whoosh. You can google 'reperfusion syndrome' to find out more.
                > >>
                >
                > I worry about this aspect of the clot-busting drugs too. I didn't know what reperfusion was. I read it on a website just last night and had to look it up. Your explanation is much more understandable than what I found. Thanks for the clarification on this. I guess it's kind of like toxic overload, yes? All that waste has to go somewhere and it can't get eliminated from the body fast enough.
                >
                >
                >
                > > Regarding nattokinase, one thing that raises my eyebrows is the 'kinase' part of it -- a kinase is something that breaks down something else, so that concerns me.
                > >>
                >
                > From what I've read and understand, and I talked to a holistic doctor about this once years ago, nattokinase doesn't just break down the clot, it actually digests it. The doctor explained it to me as something like the nattokinase is an enzyme that basically eats the clot, digests it and the waste that's left over is minimal and easy for the body to get rid of. I don't have any websites that explain it that way, and I haven't been able to even find anything written like that, but that's what he told me back then. If anyone finds anything online or in a book anywhere that supports that info, please email it to me and I'll put it in the files for everyone.
                >
                > Now more than ever, I want to do the right thing for Misty and not do anything that's going to hurt her. I want to give her the nattokinase. For now, we did start the Plavix today, but at a lower dose. We're only giving her 1/8 tablet once a day. They said to give 1/4 tablet once a day, but she's so sensitive to things, we wanted to start out cautiously. If she seems to be fine with it in a few days, we'll up it to the normal 1/4 tablet.
                >
                > I'm grateful that Misty is still here, able to walk and is eating okay and otherwise seems okay, except for that she's acting a little out of it still. She's kind of just not herself, not all in there, you know what I mean? But I'm just glad she's still here! I don't really know for sure what it was that triggered this or what it actually was for sure. A clot?....probably. But not knowing what caused it, that's the hard part, because now I keep feeling like "when is it going to happen again?" and the next time it might take her. I can't keep thinking this way. I really believe that the universe gives you what you ask for or keep thinking on, so I'm trying to think good, positive things instead of the worrying things.
                >
                > Yesterday we got an email from the neurologist that said that the xrays showed that Misty's left atrium was enlarged. So I guess that explains the why part of it. What I don't understand is that why it didn't show up like that on her ultrasound she had a couple months ago, and could it have gotten that bad and bad enough to form a clot in a couple of months? I guess so. :-(
                >
                > So I called our internist yesterday and spoke with her about what the neurologist said, and she said that she didn't really agree with that finding. I asked her if we could do another echo/ultrasound on Misty to see if anything's changed, and she said she could do it on Monday down at the clinic near our home here, so that's good. We won't have to drive far, only about 15 minutes for Misty to be in the car. So we'll know more after Monday.
                >
                > Does a clot show up on an ultrasound?
                >
                > Anyway, I guess that's it for now.
                >
                > Thanks again for all the prayers and good thoughts. Misty needs them for sure! And thanks, Adriann, for all the really great information that you share with the group. I'm so glad there are a few members here who know more of the scientific side of things.
                >
                > hugs,
                > a tired Carol, Misty and Angel Snowball
                > and the gang
                >
              • acrocat@rocketmail.com
                Hi Carol Here is a cat site on reperfusion injury: http://www.manhattancats.com/Articles/Arterial_Thromboembolism.html . As you see also in that article, a
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 10, 2011
                  Hi Carol

                  Here is a cat site on reperfusion injury: http://www.manhattancats.com/Articles/Arterial_Thromboembolism.html .

                  As you see also in that article, a clot that is sitting in the heart can be visualized on ultrasound. Unfortunately, if a cat has an ATE, it means that the clot may have left the heart and gotten lodged elsewhere. The ATE may also be a piece of the clot that came unstuck and whooshed out into circulation :( The best marker for clot risk in cats is an actual clot in the heart, or, more often seen, is what is called 'smoke' or 'spontaneous echo contrast' in the left atrium of the heart. It looks like a swirling thin cloud in on echo, and it means that blood cells are starting to stick together. These cats are at very high risk of clots, unfortunately.

                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C.R." <carolroar@...> wrote:
                  >Yesterday we got an email from the neurologist that said that the xrays showed that Misty's left atrium was enlarged. So I guess that explains the why part of it.

                  As I mentioned, it would be very unlikely for a clot from the heart to go all the way to the brain so if there were signs of brain involvement, it is most likely not cardiac.

                  >What I don't understand is that why it didn't show up like that on her ultrasound she had a couple months ago, and could it have gotten that bad and bad enough to form a clot in a couple of months?

                  If she does have HCM or RCM (and developing these at her age would be unusual), it will progress however slow or fast it wants to, unfortunately. Since the internist doesn't agree that the LA looks big, however, you might not be looking at a heart issue at all.

                  Keep us posted after your visit tomorrow!
                  Adriann
                • C.R.
                  Hi Adriann, Thank you for this info. I ve printed out your post and am taking it with me to the internist today. ... They kept saying vestibular event caused
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 11, 2011
                    Hi Adriann,

                    Thank you for this info. I've printed out your post and am taking it with me to the internist today.


                    >>
                    > As I mentioned, it would be very unlikely for a clot from the heart to go all the way to the brain so if there were signs of brain involvement, it is most likely not cardiac.
                    >>

                    They kept saying "vestibular event" caused by a clot. I read what a vestibular problem is...like vertigo, right? I don't understand how that could that be caused by a clot.

                    >>
                    If she does have HCM or RCM (and developing these at her age would be unusual), it will progress however slow or fast it wants to, unfortunately. Since the internist doesn't agree that the LA looks big, however, you might not be looking at a heart issue at all.
                    >>

                    That's the big question for Misty. She's never been diagnosed with HCM or RCM or any kind of cardiomyopathy. In all the past 3 years of getting her heart ultrasounds, they've always said her heart is normal. She only had this rapid heart rate. Now they're saying she has a murmur too, just since this last visit with the neurologist last week.

                    I would love for this to NOT be a heart issue, but maybe just something benign that could be dealt with more easily or something that will subside on it's own. That would be a most welcome outcome.

                    We're going today at 2pm. I'll post later on our findings. Please send Misty some good thoughts.

                    hugs,
                    Carol, Misty and Angel Snowball
                    and the gang
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.