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Re: [FH] How to give nattokinase?

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  • Jim Sinclair
    ... I got Doctors Best nattokinase and Solgar acetyl L-carnitine. I also got some NOW Foods Protein Digest, hoping it would help the young cat with probable
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 10, 2011
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      On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Carol <carolroar@...> wrote:
      > hi Jim,
      >
      > We've always given the CoQ10, nattokinase, taurine and l-carnitine with
      > food. I don't think it needs to be given on an empty stomach for the cats.
      > I've actually never seen it prescribed that way for humans either.
      > What brand did you buy?

      I got Doctors Best nattokinase and Solgar acetyl L-carnitine.

      I also got some NOW Foods Protein Digest, hoping it would help the
      young cat with probable congenital IBD, and Clipsy's littermate with
      recent-onset triaditis, and maybe even Clipsy who's been vomiting a
      lot since her diagnosis (which I hope will also be helped by switching
      from aspirin to nattokinase). Has anyone ever used that product?

      Jim Sinclair  jisincla@...
      www.jimsinclair.org
      http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
    • C.R.
      hi Jim, Doctor s Best is a good one. That s the one that I buy. The carnitine you bought isn t the correct one for heart health though. Acetyl-L-Carnitine is
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 10, 2011
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        hi Jim,

        Doctor's Best is a good one. That's the one that I buy.

        The carnitine you bought isn't the correct one for heart health though. Acetyl-L-Carnitine is more for neurological things, where L-Carnitine is for heart health. Plain old L-Carnitine you can get at almost any health food store. Some L-Carnintine supplements have B6 added to them. I'm not sure why they do that, but I've been told that you shouldn't supplement with B6 for cats. Try to find one that is just L-carnitine.

        Also, never buy DL-carnitine. DL-carnitine is a synthetic form and is not safe to use. Regular L-carnitine is the natural form of the amino acid.

        Here is more info about L-carnitine.
        http://tsangenterprise.com/news71.htm
        http://www.wholehealth.com/vitamins-supplements/l-carnitine

        I haven't used the NOW protein digest, but I've used similar types of digestive enzyme supplements on my guys who have IBD. The one that I use most is called Prozyme and it's specifically for animals. I think they're all similar in their actions, so any good digestive enzyme supplement should be helpful.

        Carol and Angel Snowball
        and the gang
      • Jim Sinclair
        ... How much do you give? The file from this group says 50 to 72 mg/day, but the Doctor s Best label says each capsule contains 2000 FU. How does that
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 11, 2011
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          On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:01 AM, C.R. <carolroar@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > hi Jim,
          >
          > Doctor's Best is a good one. That's the one that I buy.

          How much do you give? The file from this group says 50 to 72 mg/day,
          but the Doctor's Best label says each capsule contains 2000 FU. How
          does that translate?

          > The carnitine you bought isn't the correct one for heart health though.

          Oops. I'll look for plain L-Carnitine.

          > I haven't used the NOW protein digest, but I've used similar types of digestive enzyme supplements on my guys who have IBD. The one that I use most is called Prozyme and it's specifically for animals. I think they're all similar in their actions, so any good digestive enzyme supplement should be helpful.

          I've been using Prozyme, but Willow (Clipsy's brother) is still a bag
          of bones. Tried various probiotics including one with FOS, yogurt,
          smaller more frequent meals, along with the metronidazole and Pepcid
          and Reglan from the vet, and at least he has his appetite back and
          isn't vomiting up everything he eats anymore. But he's not putting
          back on the weight he lost, and his fur is dull, and he just isn't
          looking good. :-(

          Jim Sinclair  jisincla@...
          www.jimsinclair.org
          http://moosepuppy.petfinder.com
        • elfinmyst@aol.com
          Hi I give one capsule of Doctors Best to my cats on nattokinase once a day.. Lyn _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/) [Non-text portions of
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 11, 2011
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            Hi

            I give one capsule of Doctors Best to my cats on nattokinase once a day..


            Lyn

            _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • C.R.
            hi Jim, The 2000 FU refers to fibrinolytic units of the nattokinase enzyme. The Nutricology brand has 1440 FU and their label says it equals 72 mg per
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 11, 2011
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              hi Jim,

              The 2000 FU refers to fibrinolytic units of the nattokinase enzyme. The Nutricology brand has 1440 FU and their label says it equals 72 mg per capsule. Their 2000 FU says it equals 100 mg per capsules, so I think it's safe to say that the Doctor's Best 2000 FU is also 100 mg each.

              I used to give our angel Chris half a cap twice a day.

              Does Willow have hyperthyroid? The being skinny and crummy fur can be hyperthyroid stuff. Our angel Snowball was that way. She had no appetite and kept losing weight and her fur got all greasy looking. Hyperthyroid cats don't always present with a voracious appetite, which is what many have. They keep eating and still lose weight. Some hyperT cats don't have an appetite, because they get nauseated from being hyperthyroid.

              If he's not hyperthyroid, then there may be some pancreatitis going on possibly? The only reason I say that, is because the things you describe sound a lot like how Snowball was and she also had pancreatitis along with all her other problems.

              Putting on weight is really hard to do when they get in that mode of losing. Our Misty, who will be 20 in May and has heart, kidney, pancreatitis, hyperthyroid, hypertension, and she wasn't eating well and losing weight, looked awful. The vet said she had really bad teeth, so we got her teeth cleaned... bit the bullet and took the chance that it'd be okay for her, and the vet found an abscessed tooth and once that was gone, she felt so much better. We switched her to raw and she's eating like a pig and gaining weight and getting her muscle back in her hind end. We buy this frozen stuff called Rad Cat and another one called Primal. It's really been amazing how much better she feels now that those bad teeth are gone. She's gained 12 ounces in the past two months!

              Carol and Angel Snowball
              and the gang


              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...> wrote:


              > How much do you give? The file from this group says 50 to 72 mg/day,
              > but the Doctor's Best label says each capsule contains 2000 FU. How
              > does that translate?
              >

              > I've been using Prozyme, but Willow (Clipsy's brother) is still a bag of bones. Tried various probiotics including one with FOS, yogurt,
              > smaller more frequent meals, along with the metronidazole and Pepcid
              > and Reglan from the vet, and at least he has his appetite back and
              > isn't vomiting up everything he eats anymore. But he's not putting
              > back on the weight he lost, and his fur is dull, and he just isn't
              > looking good. :-(
            • water glow
              Hello everyone, My cat Mez has been hyperthyroid now for several years (taking methimazole) with possible underlying kidney issues. She had some boughts with
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 12, 2011
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                Hello everyone,

                My cat Mez has been hyperthyroid now for several years (taking methimazole) with possible underlying kidney issues. She had some boughts with fluid in the lungs 2.5 years ago and was helped with Furosamide. She has been on a low dose ever since.  About a month ago we went in for a check up and her T4 was lower than the low values. The vet cut her dose in half of both furosamide and methimazole. Within a week fluid had built up in her chest. We went in and she had fluid extracted, twice that week. Then we did an ultra sound that showed enlarged atria on both sides. An ultra sound back in October showed a much healthier heart. The vet then put her on Vetmedin, she has seemed to become nauseaus from it so we cut back and she now is not on it. Almost 2 weeks ago the vet put her on aspirin (she has been on Natto for years) and also added enalapril. Her appetite was okay for awhile but has since dropped off and she vomits occasionally. Also this last visit
                the doctor detected an arrythmia. I noticed her breathing pattern change when we started the Enalapril--can this cause arrythmia in cats? She didn't have as much fluid in the lungs this last visit. She still is taking a lowered dose of methimazole even though her T4 still registers below low ranges. Someone has mentioned euthyroid sickness but I don't know much about it. My vet wants her stay on the methimazole. This is such a balancing act. My head is swirling. I want to be sure she eats...I still have her taking the natto but half as much now that I added the aspirin. Does anyone have suggestions or similar experiences? Not sure what is causing her appetite to decline- want to make sure it isn't the medicine. We go in for an EKG today and this will be looked at by a cardiologist. I originally was of the impression that the ultrasound was looked at by one but that was not the case...

                Thank you everyone for your support and comments. They are very appreciated!

                ~Amy and Mez















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Judi Levens
                I am not a vet, but I would consider stopping the aspirin...I would ask the vet if he agrees, solely because many cats have nausea and vomiting from aspirin
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 12, 2011
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                  I am not a vet, but I would consider stopping the aspirin...I would ask the vet if he agrees, solely because many cats have nausea and vomiting from aspirin and natto should do the job without the aspirin...I hope you find the solution...good luck...Judi and Angel Max








                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  From: waterglow12@...
                  Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 11:56:32 -0800
                  Subject: [FH] Arrythmia brought on by meds??






                  Hello everyone,

                  My cat Mez has been hyperthyroid now for several years (taking methimazole) with possible underlying kidney issues. She had some boughts with fluid in the lungs 2.5 years ago and was helped with Furosamide. She has been on a low dose ever since. About a month ago we went in for a check up and her T4 was lower than the low values. The vet cut her dose in half of both furosamide and methimazole. Within a week fluid had built up in her chest. We went in and she had fluid extracted, twice that week. Then we did an ultra sound that showed enlarged atria on both sides. An ultra sound back in October showed a much healthier heart. The vet then put her on Vetmedin, she has seemed to become nauseaus from it so we cut back and she now is not on it. Almost 2 weeks ago the vet put her on aspirin (she has been on Natto for years) and also added enalapril. Her appetite was okay for awhile but has since dropped off and she vomits occasionally. Also this last visit
                  the doctor detected an arrythmia. I noticed her breathing pattern change when we started the Enalapril--can this cause arrythmia in cats? She didn't have as much fluid in the lungs this last visit. She still is taking a lowered dose of methimazole even though her T4 still registers below low ranges. Someone has mentioned euthyroid sickness but I don't know much about it. My vet wants her stay on the methimazole. This is such a balancing act. My head is swirling. I want to be sure she eats...I still have her taking the natto but half as much now that I added the aspirin. Does anyone have suggestions or similar experiences? Not sure what is causing her appetite to decline- want to make sure it isn't the medicine. We go in for an EKG today and this will be looked at by a cardiologist. I originally was of the impression that the ultrasound was looked at by one but that was not the case...

                  Thank you everyone for your support and comments. They are very appreciated!

                  ~Amy and Mez

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • LorieAHuston@cs.com
                  Hi Amy. I m sorry Mez is having these problems. Enalapril can cause hyperkalemia (an elevated potassium level in the blood) which in turn can cause an
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 12, 2011
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                    Hi Amy.

                    I'm sorry Mez is having these problems. Enalapril can cause hyperkalemia (an elevated potassium level in the blood) which in turn can cause an arrhythmia. That being said, heart disease by itself can cause arrhythmias also. So, it can be very difficult to differentiate the cause in a situation like this. It's good that you're having the EKG done and examined by a cardiologist. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have the cardiologist review the ultrasound or even perform his/her own for Mez, if possible.

                    It is possible that the fact that Mez is sick is influencing the T4 value (that's what is meant by sick euthyroid - the thyroid values can go down to below normal simply because Mez is not feeling well). Once Mez is feeling better, the thyroid values should be re-measured.

                    Good luck with Mez. It definitely is a balancing act when our kitties have more than one serious health issue that need to be addressed.

                    Lorie Huston, DVM
                    Pet Health Care Gazette (www.pet-health-care-gazette.com)




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: water glow <waterglow12@...>
                    To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 2:56 pm
                    Subject: [FH] Arrythmia brought on by meds??




                    Hello everyone,

                    My cat Mez has been hyperthyroid now for several years (taking methimazole) with possible underlying kidney issues. She had some boughts with fluid in the lungs 2.5 years ago and was helped with Furosamide. She has been on a low dose ever since. About a month ago we went in for a check up and her T4 was lower than the low values. The vet cut her dose in half of both furosamide and methimazole. Within a week fluid had built up in her chest. We went in and she had fluid extracted, twice that week. Then we did an ultra sound that showed enlarged atria on both sides. An ultra sound back in October showed a much healthier heart. The vet then put her on Vetmedin, she has seemed to become nauseaus from it so we cut back and she now is not on it. Almost 2 weeks ago the vet put her on aspirin (she has been on Natto for years) and also added enalapril. Her appetite was okay for awhile but has since dropped off and she vomits occasionally. Also this last visit
                    the doctor detected an arrythmia. I noticed her breathing pattern change when we started the Enalapril--can this cause arrythmia in cats? She didn't have as much fluid in the lungs this last visit. She still is taking a lowered dose of methimazole even though her T4 still registers below low ranges. Someone has mentioned euthyroid sickness but I don't know much about it. My vet wants her stay on the methimazole. This is such a balancing act. My head is swirling. I want to be sure she eats...I still have her taking the natto but half as much now that I added the aspirin. Does anyone have suggestions or similar experiences? Not sure what is causing her appetite to decline- want to make sure it isn't the medicine. We go in for an EKG today and this will be looked at by a cardiologist. I originally was of the impression that the ultrasound was looked at by one but that was not the case...

                    Thank you everyone for your support and comments. They are very appreciated!

                    ~Amy and Mez

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • water glow
                    Hi, Thank you all so much for replying today! Helps me feel a lot more confident about the decisions I m making. We went to the vet and got the EKG done. It
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 12, 2011
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                      Hi,

                      Thank you all so much for replying today! Helps me feel a lot more confident about the decisions I'm making. We went to the vet and got the EKG done. It took awhile because Mez was howling so loudly--she does not like to be held down! Then a dog coming out of anesthesia chimed in...but eventually they were able to get a reading into the tech. We will know more from the cardiologist on Monday. Our vet gave them reporting on her recent ultrasound and cardiographs along with the lists of her medications, so hopefully the specialist will be able to give some good input. They also took another blood panel to monitor her kidneys and T4 levels. We'll keep you posted. Thanks for your continued good thoughts and support coming our way...we can feel it!

                      ~Amy and Mez



                      --- On Sat, 3/12/11, LorieAHuston@... <LorieAHuston@...> wrote:

                      From: LorieAHuston@... <LorieAHuston@...>
                      Subject: Re: [FH] Arrythmia brought on by meds??
                      To: waterglow12@..., feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, March 12, 2011, 12:29 PM







                       











                      Hi Amy.



                      I'm sorry Mez is having these problems. Enalapril can cause hyperkalemia (an elevated potassium level in the blood) which in turn can cause an arrhythmia. That being said, heart disease by itself can cause arrhythmias also. So, it can be very difficult to differentiate the cause in a situation like this. It's good that you're having the EKG done and examined by a cardiologist. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have the cardiologist review the ultrasound or even perform his/her own for Mez, if possible.



                      It is possible that the fact that Mez is sick is influencing the T4 value (that's what is meant by sick euthyroid - the thyroid values can go down to below normal simply because Mez is not feeling well). Once Mez is feeling better, the thyroid values should be re-measured.



                      Good luck with Mez. It definitely is a balancing act when our kitties have more than one serious health issue that need to be addressed.



                      Lorie Huston, DVM

                      Pet Health Care Gazette (www.pet-health-care-gazette.com)



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: water glow <waterglow12@...>

                      To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>

                      Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 2:56 pm

                      Subject: [FH] Arrythmia brought on by meds??



                      Hello everyone,



                      My cat Mez has been hyperthyroid now for several years (taking methimazole) with possible underlying kidney issues. She had some boughts with fluid in the lungs 2.5 years ago and was helped with Furosamide. She has been on a low dose ever since. About a month ago we went in for a check up and her T4 was lower than the low values. The vet cut her dose in half of both furosamide and methimazole. Within a week fluid had built up in her chest. We went in and she had fluid extracted, twice that week. Then we did an ultra sound that showed enlarged atria on both sides. An ultra sound back in October showed a much healthier heart. The vet then put her on Vetmedin, she has seemed to become nauseaus from it so we cut back and she now is not on it. Almost 2 weeks ago the vet put her on aspirin (she has been on Natto for years) and also added enalapril. Her appetite was okay for awhile but has since dropped off and she vomits occasionally. Also this last visit

                      the doctor detected an arrythmia. I noticed her breathing pattern change when we started the Enalapril--can this cause arrythmia in cats? She didn't have as much fluid in the lungs this last visit. She still is taking a lowered dose of methimazole even though her T4 still registers below low ranges. Someone has mentioned euthyroid sickness but I don't know much about it. My vet wants her stay on the methimazole. This is such a balancing act. My head is swirling. I want to be sure she eats...I still have her taking the natto but half as much now that I added the aspirin. Does anyone have suggestions or similar experiences? Not sure what is causing her appetite to decline- want to make sure it isn't the medicine. We go in for an EKG today and this will be looked at by a cardiologist. I originally was of the impression that the ultrasound was looked at by one but that was not the case...



                      Thank you everyone for your support and comments. They are very appreciated!



                      ~Amy and Mez



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Carol
                      Hi Elle, I m answering to the group, so maybe someone else can answer your question too. The brand that we give Misty is Nutricology Nattozyme and they re
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 30, 2012
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                        Hi Elle,


                        I'm answering to the group, so maybe someone else can answer your question too. The brand that we give Misty is Nutricology Nattozyme and they're 1440 FU (36mg each pill), and we give her one twice a day. You can't give it with aspirin or any other blood thinners though. With too many blood thinners, they can cause internal bleeding.


                        I don't know how much is too much. I've never given Misty more than two a day.


                        Carol










                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Elle <dancingvalar@...>
                        To: Carol <carolroar@...>
                        Sent: Wed, May 30, 2012 5:11 pm
                        Subject: Re: [FH] How to give nattokinase?


                        Hi there. So my 20 year old cat threw a blood clot yesterday in his hindleg. I
                        gacve him a quarter of a baby aspirin based on what my vet said but I found the
                        info on nattokinase and bought the Doctors Best brand which has 2000 FU. How
                        much do I give him ot resolve the clot? Some people say they have given their
                        cats 8 75mg pills a day( spread out) ...and here i read that you only give one
                        2000 FU tablet. So what is safe? Can i ho ahead and give him more than one to
                        make the clot go away? Thank you.






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carol
                        hi, When your vet said not to give the aspirin and nattokinase at the same time, did he just mean not to give them together?... because at the same time
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 30, 2012
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                          hi,


                          When your vet said not to give the aspirin and nattokinase at the same time, did he just mean not to give them together?... because "at the same time" meaning in conjunction with each other, that's what you shouldn't do. Aspirin doesn't dissolve a clot, it just thins the blood to help prevent further clots. The nattokinase, from what I've read, dissolves the clots in addition to thinning the blood, so giving both aspirin and nattokinase concurrently isn't something I would do.

                          I was taking care of my friend's cat, Christopher, back in 2007 who threw a clot, lost the use of his back leg. The vet had him on heparin injections for 10 days, then after that aspirin, but we only did the aspirin for a few days before switching to nattokinase. The vets told us not to give any of those things together, not the heparin and aspirin, nor the aspirin and nattokinase, so we did the heparin, then did the aspirin, then did the nattokinase. Then after about two weeks from the day he had his clot, with 10 days on heparin, a couple on aspirin and 3 days on nattokinase, he started getting the use of his leg back again, and within a month he was fully functional with that leg. Everyone has different experiences, I'm sure, but that's what how it went with Christopher.

                          Now my angel Snowball threw a clot and didn't survive long enough to even get treated. Twenty minutes after she threw the clot, we lost her, so the fact that your kitty survived is really good! Because now you can take steps to try to eliminate the clot and prevent future ones. I know nothing is a guarantee, but you have a good start! Try to be patient. What you don't want to have happen is to overdose on nattokinase or any of the clot busting/blood thinning meds and supplements, and have them get internal bleeding. More isn't always better in some cases.

                          If you gave her one today, then I would stick with one a day, since they're the double strength ones.

                          I really hope some of the other members on the group will offer their ideas too, because I know there are some here who give larger doses than we do with Misty.

                          Carol
















                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Lili <dancingvalar@...>
                          To: Carol <carolroar@...>
                          Sent: Wed, May 30, 2012 5:49 pm
                          Subject: Re: [FH] How to give nattokinase?



                          Hi Carol,


                          I think it says 2000 FU which means it is 100 mg (from the info on the thread) and I gave my cat one cap today. Her got aspirin (1/4 of a baby one) yesterday and the vet said not to give aspirin and nattokinase at the same time, which is fine. He said he didnt think it could harm giving her nattokinase but that there arent any studies on cats. As i said, I read somewhere that people gave their cat eight 75mg pills to solce the clot and then one every 6 days to prevent. I am all confused now. I want this clot to go away but I dont know enough about this med :( although honestly how much worse than this can it get?






                          From: Carol <carolroar@...>
                          To: dancingvalar@...; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:26 PM
                          Subject: Re: [FH] How to give nattokinase?



                          Hi Elle,


                          I'm answering to the group, so maybe someone else can answer your question too. The brand that we give Misty is Nutricology Nattozyme and they're 1440 FU (36mg each pill), and we give her one twice a day. You can't give it with aspirin or any other blood thinners though. With too many blood thinners, they can cause internal bleeding.


                          I don't know how much is too much. I've never given Misty more than two a day.


                          Carol















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • elfinmyst@aol.com
                          Hi I give one of the 2000FU pills once a day as a preventative. Natto, aspirin and plavix all help to prevent clots but I would have thought the vet would put
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 31, 2012
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                            Hi

                            I give one of the 2000FU pills once a day as a preventative. Natto, aspirin
                            and plavix all help to prevent clots but I would have thought the vet
                            would put your cat on heparin for the first few days after a clot. And
                            painkillers if kitty is in any pain, a clot can be very painful.

                            I would visit a cardiologist as soon as possible for an echocardiogram to
                            see the heart. They can tell if there is a risk of clots and would advise on
                            treatment, most likely plavix and aspirin. Is the paw warm? If it is cold,
                            that means the clot is still blocking and the leg tissue may start to die.
                            I would get a cardiologist appointment at the earliest opportunity and see
                            the vet immediately if the paw is cold.

                            Lyn

                            _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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