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Re: [FH] MORE advice please for Rigsby

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  • jruthaitken
    HI Sorry you have had a difficult time too....it seems to be the case for so many of us on these lists who have come to rely on the advice and experience of
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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      HI

      Sorry you have had a difficult time too....it seems to be the case for so many of us on these lists who have come to rely on the advice and experience of other cat owners (and I use the term owners very loosely!).
      just for clarification - the specialist prescribed cerenia and I picked it up from my local vet today. The specialists recommended benazirpril and that he stop subq last christmas - two huge mistakes that have pushed him to the end sooner than if these changes had not been made I am sure - but it is so difficult to know what to do. Rigsby has to eat....and I just can't get him to do it unless the food is full of protein/phosphorus...I am so confused and terrified to give him one more medicine that causes him harm.
      thanks
      Ruth

      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Barbie <barbie_guitard@...> wrote:
      >
      > For me in my opinion, if it was a regular vet I wouldn't give
      > it to her/him.  My vet made the biggest mistake with my cat
      > in the beginning of his HCM diagnosis when he gave him a
      > cortosteriod the first day, my cat got worse in hours.  That
      > caused my cat to go into heart failure.  Then I take her back
      > in the next day and instead of using their brains, they administer
      > yet another cortosteriod even stronger that lasts 12 days.
      > I was livid when I found out and is probably the reason she
      > is no longer with me.  I get so angry just thinking about it
      > so I will stop there.
      >
      > When it comes to HCM normal vets don't have a clue.  They
      > just throw a bunch of stuff at a problem in hopes that it goes
      > away which my vet actually admitted to.  If you have seen
      > a cardio/Internist why are you still taking direction from a vet.  Once
      > I saw Internist, that is who I delt with from then on, not a regular
      > vet.  I just don't think they have the knowledge to give direction
      > with all types of HCM meds.  I would look into this further
      > with someone who has more knowledge.
      >
      > I think I have decided today to go off this list as well.......I just
      > can't stand to read or even see all the pain and sickness in all
      > these cats.  It is just too painful.  I am trying to get over my loss
      > and this is just reminding me everytime someone posts.
      >
      > Good luck to you, hope you figured all this out.
      >
      > Take care.
      >  
      > Barbie
      >  
      > "Whoever wants to know something about me,
      > must observe my paintings carefully and try to
      > see in them what I am".
      >  
      > Gustav Klimt
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
      > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 6:32:00 AM
      > Subject: Re: [FH] MORE advice please for Rigsby
      >
      >  
      > hi
      > i am just back from my local vet with a bottle of incredibly expensive Cerenia.
      > I am looking at the cautions etc and see it should be used with caution in
      > animals suffering with heart diseases.
      > Rigsby has HCM advanced and also has high blood pressure now. Should I give this
      > or take it back!
      > advice please once more!!!
      >
      > many thanks
      > Ruth
      >
      > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, carolroar@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Ruth,
      > >
      > > the phosphorus looks really high, if the normal is supposed to be around 1.9.
      > >What is the range for the phosphorus? The numbers you posted aren't familiar to
      > >me, so I'm not sure, but it looks like if his phosphorus is that high, that
      > >alone can make them feel really, reallly bad... nauseated, lethargic, the whole
      > >thing.
      > >
      > > I see you're giving him Renalzin. I'm not sure what's in that. We always give
      > >aluminum hydroxide powder. It's tasteless and mixes in food without changing the
      > >flavor. If the phosphorus can come down, that can make them feel better and
      > >wanting to eat again. I know it did with Misty. High phosphorus can really make
      > >them feel so low and no energy and nauseated.
      > >
      > > It might be worth while to try a different phosphorus binder and see if it
      > >helps. Here's a link to the info on that from the crf group.
      > >http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/binders.htm
      > >
      > > When my angels Sweetie, Muffy and Snowball, all crf and heart kitties, would
      > >get the way you describe Rigsby, I would syringe feed them. I would take their
      > >regular food and add water in the little food processor to make it mushy enough
      > >to suck up insyringes. I know a lot of people use baby food meat, but that's
      > >just straight protein and not complete nutritionally. So I use their own food
      > >with water added to make it syringe-able and syringe feed them. It always got us
      > >over the hump and soon once they had more food in them and using the phosphorus
      > >binder, got their phosphorus to do down, they started feeling better and began
      > >eating on their own again.
      > >
      > >
      > > I hope he's feeing better. We'll keep him in our prayers and send healing
      > >light.
      > >
      > > hugs,
      > > Carol and Angel Snowball
      > > and the gang
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > today 11/11 4/11 27/10
      > > PCV 27% 28% 20% 16%
      > > Urea 67 43.9 38
      > > creatinine 578 (732 - local vet, high labs) 519
      > > phosphorus 6.01 1.94
      > > glucose 2.4 28 13
      > > blood pressure 179 usually 140 but not measured since May
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • carolroar@aol.com
      hi Ruth, ... i asked about the other type of binders you mentioned and he was worried about the calcium involved so advised against it. ... The aluminum
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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        hi Ruth,

        >>
        i asked about the other type of binders you mentioned and he was worried about the calcium involved so advised against it.
        >>

        The aluminum hydroxide doesn't have any calcium in it. There are others that do, but not the aluminum hydroxide. Aluminum is the same ingredient that they put in most of the over the counter antacid medications, like Maalox and stuff like that. I'm surprised your vet thinks that there is calcium in it. Hmmmm.

        Do you have any of the Bach flower remedy Rescue Remedy? When our angel Chris would get his heart racing and breathing fast, we'd give him the Rescue Remedy and he'd calm down. I don't know for sure, but I think it might help with the high blood pressure too.

        The sulcralfate is a good idea. I've given it to my guys from time to time and it really did help them.

        If your vet thinks there is an internal bleed of some kind, there's a Chinese herb called Yunnan Baiyao that is given for that kind of thing. When our Squeek was going through her initial bout with her thrombocytopenia, she was bleeding internally, and our holistic vet gave us the Yunnan Baiyao to give her. It's an amazing herb that has the ability to stop internal bleeding. Do you have a holistic vet that you can talk to about that? It's a very inexpensive herb. Over here, I can buy a little box of 16 capsules for about $9.00.

        I know it's a little bit kind of "out there", the holistic things, but when I can't get any help for my guys with the regular vets, I turn to the holistic ones for help. Sometimes they can help, sometimes not, but I figure it's worth a try.

        I'm a big believer in syringe feeding (assist feeding). I don't always agree with those who say when a cat stops eating that it is the end. Sometimes maybe it is, but I've found most of the time, with my own guys, is that it's just that they feel so crummy that they don't want to eat, and if I syringe feed them and get them nourishment and kind of jump start them with the syringe feeding, then they perk up enough to want to eat on their own.

        There's a really good group that is for those who assist feed their kitties. You might want to join that if you haven't already. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-Assisted-Feeding/

        Hang in there. I know it's hard. I've been there and know it's exhausting. We're thinking of you and hoping for positive things to soon surround Rigsby.

        hugs,
        Carol and Angel Snowball
        and the gang



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • C.R.
        hi Ruth, We used Cerenia on our angel Snowball, and it didn t really do much for her nausea. I know a lot of people on the IBD groups use it, but it didn t
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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          hi Ruth,

          We used Cerenia on our angel Snowball, and it didn't really do much for her nausea. I know a lot of people on the IBD groups use it, but it didn't really do the job for Snowball.

          What we did use for her was injectable Ondansetron (brand name is Zofran). That too has precautions for causing elevated heart rate, but we decided it was worth the chance to be able to have Snowball stop vomiting and being nauseated. Snowball already had an elevated heart rate prior to us giving her the Ondansetron, so we didn't really see that it increased it any more than it already was after giving it to her. We gave her injections twice daily.

          If you decide to try the Ondansetron, shop around, because local drug stores charge a ridiculous price for it, over here about $200 a vial, but I get it online at ThrivingPets.com for about $35 with shipping.
          http://www.thrivingpets.com/index.php/ondansetron-zofran.html

          I don't think the Cerenia is that much different than the Ondansetron, but for us the Cerenia didn't help where the Ondansetron did.

          Carol and Angel Snowball
          and the gang

          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@...> wrote:
          >
          > hi
          > i am just back from my local vet with a bottle of incredibly expensive Cerenia.
        • Ruth Aitken
          thank you so much for that supportive post Carol - it makes a huge difference to be addressed by name and to have someone who really understands and is willing
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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            thank you so much for that supportive post Carol - it makes a huge difference to be addressed by name and to have someone who really understands and is willing to step outside the box and consider alternatives.
            I just tried syringe feeding and the liquid squirted out. i think he may have ulcers in his mouth because he is having difficulty picking up dried biscuits. 
            should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat. all he has had today is three small saucers of gravy and renalzin! and two lots of subq. his breath is terrible. I read cerenia is bad for the heart but can't find out what it might do?
            I am nervous about starting blood pressure meds if this is advised next week. Do you know how long darbo stays in the system becasue if this is the cause of high BP, it will return to normal once the darbo is gone. I am afraid that the darbo has caused more kidney damage (via high BP) and he might now have high BP as a result! 
            poor Rigsby - i just don't know how long I can let him suffer like this.....It is heartbreaking and I really mean that - it isn't just a cliche. I could weep..except anger is keeping this at bay. How long did your cats stop eating for? I keep remembering things like risk of fatty liver and so on.....Rigsby has NEVER been as bad as he is now. when I think of how he was three weeks ago before he started on darbo I was worried, but it was nothing compared to now.please pray for himthanksRuth

            --- On Sat, 20/11/10, carolroar@... <carolroar@...> wrote:

            From: carolroar@... <carolroar@...>
            Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
            To: jruthaitken@..., feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 18:43






            hi Ruth,


             


            >>


             i asked about the other type of binders you mentioned and he was worried about the calcium involved so advised against it.


            >>


             


            The aluminum hydroxide doesn't have any calcium in it.  There are others that do, but not the aluminum hydroxide.  Aluminum is the same ingredient that they put in most of the over the counter antacid medications, like Maalox and stuff like that.  I'm surprised your vet thinks that there is calcium in it. Hmmmm.


             


            Do you have any of the Bach flower remedy Rescue Remedy?  When our angel Chris would get his heart racing and breathing fast, we'd give him the Rescue Remedy and he'd calm down. I don't know for sure, but I think it might help with the high blood pressure too. 




            The sulcralfate is a good idea. I've given it to my guys from time to time and it really did help them.


             


            If your vet thinks there is an internal bleed of some kind, there's a Chinese herb called Yunnan Baiyao that is given for that kind of thing. When our Squeek was going through her initial bout with her thrombocytopenia, she was bleeding internally, and our holistic vet gave us the Yunnan Baiyao to give her. It's an amazing herb that has the ability to stop internal bleeding. Do you have a holistic vet that you can talk to about that?  It's a very inexpensive herb. Over here, I can buy a little box of 16 capsules for about $9.00.


             


            I know it's a little bit kind of "out there", the holistic things, but when I can't get any help for my guys with the regular vets, I turn to the holistic ones for help. Sometimes they can help, sometimes not, but I figure it's worth a try.




            I'm a big believer in syringe feeding (assist feeding). I don't always agree with those who say when a cat stops eating that it is the end. Sometimes maybe it is, but I've found most of the time, with my own guys, is that it's just that they feel so crummy that they don't want to eat, and if I syringe feed them and get them nourishment and kind of jump start them with the syringe feeding, then they perk up enough to want to eat on their own.


             


            There's a really good group that is for those who assist feed their kitties. You might want to join that if you haven't already. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-Assisted-Feeding/


             


            Hang in there. I know it's hard. I've been there and know it's exhausting.  We're thinking of you and hoping for positive things to soon surround Rigsby.


             


            hugs,


            Carol and Angel Snowball


            and the gang








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Judi Levens
            Reading this thread makes me want to ask if anyone has had a cat who gags when the food is put in front of him/her? Several times recently when I have
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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              Reading this thread makes me want to ask if anyone has had a cat who gags when the food is put in front of him/her? Several times recently when I have presented Max with baby food he's had a clear gag and reflex motion with his head right before he starts eating...just curious...thanks...Judi and Max










              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              From: carolroar@...
              Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:52:22 +0000
              Subject: Re: [FH] MORE advice please for Rigsby






              hi Ruth,

              We used Cerenia on our angel Snowball, and it didn't really do much for her nausea. I know a lot of people on the IBD groups use it, but it didn't really do the job for Snowball.

              What we did use for her was injectable Ondansetron (brand name is Zofran). That too has precautions for causing elevated heart rate, but we decided it was worth the chance to be able to have Snowball stop vomiting and being nauseated. Snowball already had an elevated heart rate prior to us giving her the Ondansetron, so we didn't really see that it increased it any more than it already was after giving it to her. We gave her injections twice daily.

              If you decide to try the Ondansetron, shop around, because local drug stores charge a ridiculous price for it, over here about $200 a vial, but I get it online at ThrivingPets.com for about $35 with shipping.
              http://www.thrivingpets.com/index.php/ondansetron-zofran.html

              I don't think the Cerenia is that much different than the Ondansetron, but for us the Cerenia didn't help where the Ondansetron did.

              Carol and Angel Snowball
              and the gang

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@...> wrote:
              >
              > hi
              > i am just back from my local vet with a bottle of incredibly expensive Cerenia.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • carolroar@aol.com
              hi Ruth, ... should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat. ... I did some searching and found this really good page about Cerenia. It looks
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                hi Ruth,

                >>
                should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat.
                >>

                I did some searching and found this really good page about Cerenia. It looks like it doesn't really have that bad of side effects with regard to the heart.

                http://felipedia.org/~felipedi/wiki/index.php/Cerenia

                "Maropitant(Cerenia) is well tolerated in the cat as demonstrated in acute toleration studies and during a 15 day safety study. Subcutaneous administrations of maropitant at up to 5.0 mg/kg produced no abnormalities in behaviour, appetite or level of consciousness. Physical examination revealed no evidence of neurological or cardiovascular abnormalities. Repeated administration of maropitant at a daily dose of 0.5 mg/kg for four consecutive days did not reveal any adverse clinical signs. "

                Here's another paragraph from a vet answer page about vomiting.
                http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cats-1606/2009/3/Cat-Vomiting.htm

                "Two anti-nausea drugs that I think are excellent for cats, (and I've used them several times for 2 cats) are anzemet and cerenia. They work beautifully, quickly, and there are few side effects. You do need to give them SQ (subcutaneously), but in my opinion, it's worth it. Cerenia can't be given for long periods of time, but then again, you shouldn't have to give an anti-emetic for long periods of time! Any time a cat requires regular dosing or a regular supply of an anti-emetic, there's an underlying problem, and the vet should be concentrating on getting to the root of that, and not just rx'ing a med. Anzemet can be given longer term than cerenia can, but still, you don't want to give it regularly for more than a few wks. But they are both great drugs--a little on the expensive side, but well worth it."

                Did your vet give you pills or injectable? It looks like the injectable works better. You give it subQ, just like you do your fluids, just underneath the skin. But don't give it the same time as fluids, because you want it to get absorbed without getting watered down from the fluids.

                If it was me... I'd give the Cerenia. I gave my angel Snowball her anti-nausea medications out of desperation, because she was vomiting every day and not eating at all. After about 3 days on her ondansetron injections, she began to feel much better, but it did take a few days.

                >>
                I just tried syringe feeding and the liquid squirted out. i think he may have ulcers in his mouth
                >>

                When you syringe, try to do it with something thicker than liquids. They do tend to dribble out of their mouths. I take the canned Wellness cat food (that's the one that I find works best) and mix it in a little food processor or blender with as much water as will make it blend...not too much to make it watery, and use that for the food to syringe. It's thick enough to not drip out of their mouth, and thin enough to such up in the syringe.

                And when you do syringe feed, try to not give more than they can comfortably swallow at a time, and not too much at each feeding. You don't want to overwhelm them. I use little 1cc syringes and only squirt about 1/4 to 1/2 cc at a time, let them swallow well and then do another 1/4 to 1/2 cc. It takes longer to feed them that way, but I find that I can get them to eat more if I don't give too much at a time. And when you syringe feed, make sure you put the syring to the "side" of their mouth, not down the middle. That way they have less a chance of gagging or choking on it and less spitting out if it's coming down the side of their mouth. That's been my experience anyway with my guys.

                Mouth ulcers... If you think he has mouth ulcers, you can give him a little slippery elm syrup in his mouth. If you syringe a little along his gums, it has a better chance of coating inside his whole mouth, than if you syringe it in like trying to get him to eat it. A little 1/2cc squirt done a couple of times along his gums, between the gums and the lips will mix with his saliva and get into most parts of his mouth to coat any sores that may be there.

                >>



                I am nervous about starting blood pressure meds if this is advised next week. Do you know how long darbo stays in the system becasue if this is the cause of high BP, it will return to normal once the darbo is gone. I am afraid that the darbo has caused more kidney damage (via high BP) and he might now have high BP as a result!
                >>

                I found this article about the interaction of Erythropoietin and high blood pressure and I think the Darbepoietin si the same...it doesn't really differentiate the two in the article. It looks like it's possible for these types of drugs to cause high blood pressure if the red blood cell count gets too high, making the blood to thicken and causing high blood pressure. I didn't think the rise that you said Rigsby had with the Darbe was one that would have caused this to happen. My angel Sweetie had much the same response to Epogen when she was on it and it didn't cause her to get high blood pressure.

                I know you told us before, but how high was Rigsby's blood pressure away from normal? High blood pressure happens in kidney disease too, so this may not have anything to do with the Darbe, which would be good if it's not. Here's that site.

                http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2595
                "Packed cell volume must be monitored weekly until the patient stabilizes so the patient will need frequent veterinary visits at least at first. If this monitoring is skipped, it is easy for the red cell count to become too high, thickening the blood and causing high blood pressure (which in turn creates more kidney damage in addition to other problems)."

                I can't find anything about how long the Darbe stays in the system, except for one thing I read that it's given once a week, so that leads me to believe that it's out of the system by the end of that time, a week, so then they'd give another shot if they need to.

                If you have to give Rigsby the blood pressure meds, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing. We give Misty blood pressure medication (Amlodipine/Norvasc), and she seems to tolerate it well. One of the side effects of the amlodipine for Misty has been it makes her tired or sleepy.

                >>
                poor Rigsby - i just don't know how long I can let him suffer like this.....It is heartbreaking and I really mean that - it isn't just a cliche. I could weep..except anger is keeping this at bay. How long did your cats stop eating for? I keep remembering things like risk of fatty liver and so on.....Rigsby has NEVER been as bad as he is now. when I think of how he was three weeks ago before he started on darbo I was worried, but it was nothing compared to now.
                please pray for him
                >>

                I've had times when my guys haven't eaten for up to three weeks, then started up on their own again. It just takes a lot of patience to deal with this when they get this way. Whenever I have to syringe feed them, I try really hard to have a good positive attitude when I'm doing it, so that they feel my positive feelings and not my worry. It's not easy!

                As long as Rigsby is eating anything at all, he won't get fatty liver disase (hepatic lipidosis), so try not to worry about that for now. You have enough to worry about..I've been there too. I worry about everything! I know truly how hard this is for you. I've been there so many times and am now with Misty and Squeek. Try to keep yourself calm and take deep breaths... it helps.

                Well continue to send Rigsby healing energy and prayers. I'll light my healing candle for him too.

                hugs,
                Carol and Angel Snowball
                and the gang













                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • C.R.
                hi Judy, Oh gosh! We ve had that happen with both my Angel Snowball and now with her sister, Misty. Both of them had/have pancreatitis along with their other
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                  hi Judy,

                  Oh gosh! We've had that happen with both my Angel Snowball and now with her sister, Misty. Both of them had/have pancreatitis along with their other problems, have done that gagging thing. The vet says it's because when they have pancreatitis, just the smell of food makes their pancreas react and get overstimulated, causing excessive acid and irritation in the stomach. So just smelling food can make them feel nauseated and I guess they do that gagging thing because of that.

                  I don't think they have to have pancreatitis to have that happen though. I think any kind of nausea will make them gag at food, regardless of what's causing the nausea. It may not necessarily make them not want to eat, but the initial reaction to the food may be kind of like "oh pewey!", if you know what I mean.

                  hugs,
                  Carol and Angel Snowball
                  and the gang



                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Reading this thread makes me want to ask if anyone has had a cat who gags when the food is put in front of him/her?
                • Judi Levens
                  I wasn t thinking Max was nauseated but I ve been giving him slippery elm bark anyway. Maybe he is. In fact today he threw up for no reason which is not
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                    I wasn't thinking Max was nauseated but I've been giving him slippery elm bark anyway. Maybe he is. In fact today he threw up for "no reason" which is not that normal for him (usually it's after he goes outside and eats some grass.) He had an ultrasound and labwork done earlier this year (in about July) and he didn't have pancreatitis then...I wonder if he's developed it since, does that seem likely? I hope not, because we have just arrived in Mexico for a 6 month stay...Judi and Max








                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    From: carolroar@...
                    Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:55:47 +0000
                    Subject: Re: [FH] MORE advice please for Rigsby






                    hi Judy,

                    Oh gosh! We've had that happen with both my Angel Snowball and now with her sister, Misty. Both of them had/have pancreatitis along with their other problems, have done that gagging thing. The vet says it's because when they have pancreatitis, just the smell of food makes their pancreas react and get overstimulated, causing excessive acid and irritation in the stomach. So just smelling food can make them feel nauseated and I guess they do that gagging thing because of that.

                    I don't think they have to have pancreatitis to have that happen though. I think any kind of nausea will make them gag at food, regardless of what's causing the nausea. It may not necessarily make them not want to eat, but the initial reaction to the food may be kind of like "oh pewey!", if you know what I mean.

                    hugs,
                    Carol and Angel Snowball
                    and the gang

                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Reading this thread makes me want to ask if anyone has had a cat who gags when the food is put in front of him/her?





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ruth Aitken
                    wow Carol,thank you so much for doing all that for me! I cannot tell you how much it means. with regard to his blood pressure. It has been constant at around
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                      wow Carol,thank you so much for doing all that for me! I cannot tell you how much it means.
                      with regard to his blood pressure. It has been constant at around 140-148 for years. It changed just recently after starting darbo - to 179. Because creatinine is roughly similar to previously and only urea and phosphorus have increased - dramatically - I suspect it is the darbo at the root. we will test urine next week too though to rule out infection.
                      the PCV rise was too rapid I think at 1% a day for 12 days. It is still at 27-28%, same as a week ago, so nothing is changing there! I will try all the things you suggest - SEB especially as I have some.I have just checked his glucose and it is 10.5, so no need to give insulin tonight. I got him some tuna in spring water - i know this is not a low phosphorus option! - but am desperate to get him to eat - he refused it. I will get some addition alucaps tomorrow if I can and start him on those.will persevere with syringe feeding. Thank you for the reassurance. I feel so much better...I will sleep tonight. It is so difficult facing all of these things for the first time, with no prior experience. this support group has been so good for us since we joined last year....never thought we would still be on it. here's hoping we can be part of this community for a while longer yet!best wishes to you allRuth

                      --- On Sat, 20/11/10, carolroar@... <carolroar@...> wrote:

                      From: carolroar@... <carolroar@...>
                      Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                      To: jruthaitken@..., feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 21:48


                      hi Ruth,


                       


                      >>


                      should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat.


                      >>


                       


                      I did some searching and found this really good page about Cerenia.  It looks like it doesn't really have that bad of side effects with regard to the heart.


                       


                      http://felipedia.org/~felipedi/wiki/index.php/Cerenia


                       


                      "Maropitant(Cerenia) is well tolerated in the cat as demonstrated in acute toleration studies and during a 15 day safety study. Subcutaneous administrations of maropitant at up to 5.0 mg/kg produced no abnormalities in behaviour, appetite or level of consciousness. Physical examination revealed no evidence of neurological or cardiovascular abnormalities. Repeated administration of maropitant at a daily dose of 0.5 mg/kg for four consecutive days did not reveal any adverse clinical signs. "




                      Here's another paragraph from a vet answer page about vomiting.


                      http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cats-1606/2009/3/Cat-Vomiting.htm


                       


                      "Two anti-nausea drugs that I think are excellent for cats, (and I've used them several times for 2 cats) are anzemet and cerenia.  They work beautifully, quickly, and there are few side effects.  You do need to give them SQ (subcutaneously), but in my opinion, it's worth it.  Cerenia can't be given for long periods of time, but then again, you shouldn't have to give an anti-emetic for long periods of time!  Any time a cat requires regular dosing or a regular supply of an anti-emetic, there's an underlying problem, and the vet should be concentrating on getting to the root of that, and not just rx'ing a med.  Anzemet can be given longer term than cerenia can, but still, you don't want to give it regularly for more than a few wks.  But they are both great drugs--a little on the expensive side, but well worth it."




                      Did your vet give you pills or injectable? It looks like the injectable works better. You give it subQ, just like you do your fluids, just underneath the skin. But don't give it the same time as fluids, because you want it to get absorbed without getting watered down from the fluids.


                       


                      If it was me... I'd give the Cerenia. I gave my angel Snowball her anti-nausea medications out of desperation, because she was vomiting every day and not eating at all.  After about 3 days on her ondansetron injections, she began to feel much better, but it did take a few days.


                       


                      >>


                      I just tried syringe feeding and the liquid squirted out. i think he may have ulcers in his mouth


                      >>


                       


                      When you syringe, try to do it with something thicker than liquids. They do tend to dribble out of their mouths. I take the canned Wellness cat food (that's the one that I find works best) and mix it in a little food processor or blender with as much water as will make it blend...not too much to make it watery, and use that for the food to syringe.  It's thick enough to not drip out of their mouth, and thin enough to such up in the syringe.  


                       


                      And when you do syringe feed, try to not give more than they can comfortably swallow at a time, and not too much at each feeding. You don't want to overwhelm them.  I use little 1cc syringes and only squirt about 1/4 to 1/2 cc at a time, let them swallow well and then do another 1/4 to 1/2 cc. It takes longer to feed them that way, but I find that I can get them to eat more if I don't give too much at a time.  And when you syringe feed, make sure you put the syring to the "side" of their mouth, not down the middle. That way they have less a chance of gagging or choking on it and less spitting out if it's coming down the side of their mouth. That's been my experience anyway with my guys.


                       


                      Mouth ulcers...  If you think he has mouth ulcers, you can give him a little slippery elm syrup in his mouth. If you syringe a little along his gums, it has a better chance of coating inside his whole mouth, than if you syringe it in like trying to get him to eat it.  A little 1/2cc squirt done a couple of times along his gums, between the gums and the lips will mix with his saliva and get into most parts of his mouth to coat any sores that may be there.



                      >>










                      I am nervous about starting blood pressure meds if this is advised next week. Do you know how long darbo stays in the system becasue if this is the cause of high BP, it will return to normal once the darbo is gone. I am afraid that the darbo has caused more kidney damage (via high BP) and he might now have high BP as a result! 


                      >>


                       


                      I found this article about the interaction of Erythropoietin and high blood pressure and I think the Darbepoietin si the same...it doesn't really differentiate the two in the article. It looks like it's possible for these types of drugs to cause high blood pressure if the red blood cell count gets too high, making the blood to thicken and causing high blood pressure.   I didn't think the rise that you said Rigsby had with the Darbe was one that would have caused this to happen. My angel Sweetie had much the same response to Epogen when she was on it and it didn't cause her to get high blood pressure. 


                       


                      I know you told us before, but how high was Rigsby's blood pressure away from normal? High blood pressure happens in kidney disease too, so this may not have anything to do with the Darbe, which would be good if it's not. Here's that site.


                       


                      http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2595

                      "Packed cell volume must be monitored weekly until the patient stabilizes so the patient will need frequent veterinary visits at least at first. If this monitoring is skipped, it is easy for the red cell count to become too high, thickening the blood and causing high blood pressure (which in turn creates more kidney damage in addition to other problems)."


                       


                      I can't find anything about how long the Darbe stays in the system, except for one thing I read that it's given once a week, so that leads me to believe that it's out of the system by the end of that time, a week, so then they'd give another shot if they need to.


                       


                      If you have to give Rigsby the blood pressure meds, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing.  We give Misty blood pressure medication (Amlodipine/Norvasc), and she seems to tolerate it well. One of the side effects of the amlodipine for Misty has been it makes her tired or sleepy.


                       


                      >>


                      poor Rigsby - i just don't know how long I can let him suffer like this.....It is heartbreaking and I really mean that - it isn't just a cliche. I could weep..except anger is keeping this at bay. How long did your cats stop eating for? I keep remembering things like risk of fatty liver and so on.....Rigsby has NEVER been as bad as he is now. when I think of how he was three weeks ago before he started on darbo I was worried, but it was nothing compared to now.


                      please pray for him


                      >>


                       


                      I've had times when my guys haven't eaten for up to three weeks, then started up on their own again. It just takes a lot of patience to deal with this when they get this way. Whenever I have to syringe feed them, I try really hard to have a good positive attitude when I'm doing it, so that they feel my positive feelings and not my worry. It's not easy!


                       


                      As long as Rigsby is eating anything at all, he won't get fatty liver disase (hepatic lipidosis), so try not to worry about that for now. You have enough to worry about..I've been there too. I worry about everything! I know truly how hard this is for you. I've been there so many times and am now with Misty and Squeek.  Try to keep yourself calm and take deep breaths... it helps. 


                       


                      Well continue to send Rigsby healing energy and prayers. I'll light my healing candle for him too.


                       


                      hugs,


                      Carol and Angel Snowball


                      and the gang






                       








                       










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Patricia Crawford
                      Hi Ruth, Bastet has advanced heart disease and takes Cerenia for her chronic pancreatitis. I give the Cerenia half an hour before her morning heart meds
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Ruth, Bastet has advanced heart disease and takes Cerenia for her chronic pancreatitis. I give the Cerenia half an hour before her morning heart meds (Fortkor, Lasix, Vetmedin) to reduce the risk of her throwing up those meds.

                        Cerenia helps prevent the nausea that causes inappentance, and my vet says it also has pain-blocking qualities.
                        Most vets prescribe it for four or five days with a break of two or three days before resuming it. On the non-Cerenia days, she gets ondansetron (Zofran) if she seems nauseated.

                        My vets have also said cats don't have to be actively vomiting to be nauseated and that inappetance may be a sign of nausea

                        When she's eating well, I suspend the Cerenia, when her appetite falls off, I just start it up again.

                        Pat
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Ruth Aitken <jruthaitken@...>
                        Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010 11:28 am
                        Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, carolroar@...

                        > thank you so much for that supportive post Carol - it makes a
                        > huge difference to be addressed by name and to have someone who
                        > really understands and is willing to step outside the box and
                        > consider alternatives.
                        > I just tried syringe feeding and the liquid squirted out. i
                        > think he may have ulcers in his mouth because he is having
                        > difficulty picking up dried biscuits.
                        > should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat. all
                        > he has had today is three small saucers of gravy and renalzin!
                        > and two lots of subq. his breath is terrible. I read cerenia is
                        > bad for the heart but can't find out what it might do?
                        > I am nervous about starting blood pressure meds if this is
                        > advised next week. Do you know how long darbo stays in the
                        > system becasue if this is the cause of high BP, it will return
                        > to normal once the darbo is gone. I am afraid that the darbo has
                        > caused more kidney damage (via high BP) and he might now have
                        > high BP as a result!
                        > poor Rigsby - i just don't know how long I can let him suffer
                        > like this.....It is heartbreaking and I really mean that - it
                        > isn't just a cliche. I could weep..except anger is keeping this
                        > at bay. How long did your cats stop eating for? I keep
                        > remembering things like risk of fatty liver and so on.....Rigsby
                        > has NEVER been as bad as he is now. when I think of how he was
                        > three weeks ago before he started on darbo I was worried, but it
                        > was nothing compared to now.please pray for himthanksRuth
                        >
                        > --- On Sat, 20/11/10, carolroar@... <carolroar@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: carolroar@... <carolroar@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                        > To: jruthaitken@..., feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 18:43
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > hi Ruth,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >>
                        >
                        >
                        > i asked about the other type of binders you mentioned and he
                        > was worried about the calcium involved so advised against it.
                        >
                        >
                        > >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The aluminum hydroxide doesn't have any calcium in it. There
                        > are others that do, but not the aluminum hydroxide. Aluminum is
                        > the same ingredient that they put in most of the over the
                        > counter antacid medications, like Maalox and stuff like that.
                        > I'm surprised your vet thinks that there is calcium in it. Hmmmm.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Do you have any of the Bach flower remedy Rescue Remedy? When
                        > our angel Chris would get his heart racing and breathing fast,
                        > we'd give him the Rescue Remedy and he'd calm down. I don't know
                        > for sure, but I think it might help with the high blood pressure
                        > too.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The sulcralfate is a good idea. I've given it to my guys from
                        > time to time and it really did help them.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If your vet thinks there is an internal bleed of some kind,
                        > there's a Chinese herb called Yunnan Baiyao that is given for
                        > that kind of thing. When our Squeek was going through her
                        > initial bout with her thrombocytopenia, she was bleeding
                        > internally, and our holistic vet gave us the Yunnan Baiyao to
                        > give her. It's an amazing herb that has the ability to stop
                        > internal bleeding. Do you have a holistic vet that you can talk
                        > to about that? It's a very inexpensive herb. Over here, I can
                        > buy a little box of 16 capsules for about $9.00.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I know it's a little bit kind of "out there", the holistic
                        > things, but when I can't get any help for my guys with the
                        > regular vets, I turn to the holistic ones for help. Sometimes
                        > they can help, sometimes not, but I figure it's worth a try.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm a big believer in syringe feeding (assist feeding). I don't
                        > always agree with those who say when a cat stops eating that it
                        > is the end. Sometimes maybe it is, but I've found most of the
                        > time, with my own guys, is that it's just that they feel so
                        > crummy that they don't want to eat, and if I syringe feed them
                        > and get them nourishment and kind of jump start them with the
                        > syringe feeding, then they perk up enough to want to eat on
                        > their own.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There's a really good group that is for those who assist feed
                        > their kitties. You might want to join that if you haven't
                        > already. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-Assisted-Feeding/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hang in there. I know it's hard. I've been there and know it's
                        > exhausting. We're thinking of you and hoping for positive
                        > things to soon surround Rigsby.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > hugs,
                        >
                        >
                        > Carol and Angel Snowball
                        >
                        >
                        > and the gang
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >

                        � I have lived with several Zen masters � all of them cats.� - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of NOW.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ruth Aitken
                        thank you so much Pat - I will give it to him tonight. I pray it works!!! ... From: Patricia Crawford Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          thank you so much Pat - I will give it to him tonight. I pray it works!!!

                          --- On Sat, 20/11/10, Patricia Crawford <PWCrawford@...> wrote:

                          From: Patricia Crawford <PWCrawford@...>
                          Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                          To: "Ruth Aitken" <jruthaitken@...>
                          Cc: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, carolroar@...
                          Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 22:31


                          Hi Ruth, Bastet has advanced heart disease and takes Cerenia for her chronic pancreatitis.  I give the Cerenia half an hour before her morning heart meds (Fortkor, Lasix, Vetmedin) to reduce the risk of her throwing up those meds.
                           
                          Cerenia helps prevent the nausea that causes inappentance, and my vet says it also has pain-blocking qualities.
                          Most vets prescribe it for four or five days with a break of two or three days before resuming it.  On the non-Cerenia days, she gets ondansetron (Zofran) if she seems nauseated.
                           
                          My vets have also said cats don't have to be actively vomiting  to be nauseated and that inappetance may be a sign of nausea

                          When she's eating well, I suspend the Cerenia, when her appetite falls off, I just start it up again. 

                          Pat
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ruth Aitken <jruthaitken@...>
                          Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010 11:28 am
                          Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, carolroar@...

                          > thank you so much for that supportive post Carol - it makes a
                          > huge difference to be addressed by name and to have someone who
                          > really understands and is willing to step outside the box and
                          > consider alternatives.
                          > I just tried syringe feeding and the liquid squirted out. i
                          > think he may have ulcers in his mouth because he is having
                          > difficulty picking up dried biscuits. 
                          > should I give the cerenia? I am desperate to get him to eat. all
                          > he has had today is three small saucers of gravy and renalzin!
                          > and two lots of subq. his breath is terrible. I read cerenia is
                          > bad for the heart but can't find out what it might do?
                          > I am nervous about starting blood pressure meds if this is
                          > advised next week. Do you know how long darbo stays in the
                          > system becasue if this is the cause of high BP, it will return
                          > to normal once the darbo is gone. I am afraid that the darbo has
                          > caused more kidney damage (via high BP) and he might now have
                          > high BP as a result! 
                          > poor Rigsby - i just don't know how long I can let him suffer
                          > like this.....It is heartbreaking and I really mean that - it
                          > isn't just a cliche. I could weep..except anger is keeping this
                          > at bay. How long did your cats stop eating for? I keep
                          > remembering things like risk of fatty liver and so on.....Rigsby
                          > has NEVER been as bad as he is now. when I think of how he was
                          > three weeks ago before he started on darbo I was worried, but it
                          > was nothing compared to now.please pray for himthanksRuth
                          >
                          > --- On Sat, 20/11/10, carolroar@... <carolroar@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: carolroar@... <carolroar@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                          > To: jruthaitken@..., feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 18:43
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > hi Ruth,
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > >>
                          >
                          >
                          >  i asked about the other type of binders you mentioned and he
                          > was worried about the calcium involved so advised against it.
                          >
                          >
                          > >>
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > The aluminum hydroxide doesn't have any calcium in it.  There
                          > are others that do, but not the aluminum hydroxide.  Aluminum is
                          > the same ingredient that they put in most of the over the
                          > counter antacid medications, like Maalox and stuff like that. 
                          > I'm surprised your vet thinks that there is calcium in it. Hmmmm.
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > Do you have any of the Bach flower remedy Rescue Remedy?  When
                          > our angel Chris would get his heart racing and breathing fast,
                          > we'd give him the Rescue Remedy and he'd calm down. I don't know
                          > for sure, but I think it might help with the high blood pressure
                          > too. 
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The sulcralfate is a good idea. I've given it to my guys from
                          > time to time and it really did help them.
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > If your vet thinks there is an internal bleed of some kind,
                          > there's a Chinese herb called Yunnan Baiyao that is given for
                          > that kind of thing. When our Squeek was going through her
                          > initial bout with her thrombocytopenia, she was bleeding
                          > internally, and our holistic vet gave us the Yunnan Baiyao to
                          > give her. It's an amazing herb that has the ability to stop
                          > internal bleeding. Do you have a holistic vet that you can talk
                          > to about that?  It's a very inexpensive herb. Over here, I can
                          > buy a little box of 16 capsules for about $9.00.
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > I know it's a little bit kind of "out there", the holistic
                          > things, but when I can't get any help for my guys with the
                          > regular vets, I turn to the holistic ones for help. Sometimes
                          > they can help, sometimes not, but I figure it's worth a try.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm a big believer in syringe feeding (assist feeding). I don't
                          > always agree with those who say when a cat stops eating that it
                          > is the end. Sometimes maybe it is, but I've found most of the
                          > time, with my own guys, is that it's just that they feel so
                          > crummy that they don't want to eat, and if I syringe feed them
                          > and get them nourishment and kind of jump start them with the
                          > syringe feeding, then they perk up enough to want to eat on
                          > their own.
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > There's a really good group that is for those who assist feed
                          > their kitties. You might want to join that if you haven't
                          > already. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-Assisted-Feeding/
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > Hang in there. I know it's hard. I've been there and know it's
                          > exhausting.  We're thinking of you and hoping for positive
                          > things to soon surround Rigsby.
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > hugs,
                          >
                          >
                          > Carol and Angel Snowball
                          >
                          >
                          > and the gang
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >      
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >

                          “ I have lived with several Zen masters – all of them cats.” - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of NOW.








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • carolroar@aol.com
                          hi Judi, Pancreatitis can come up really quickly. With Misty, she had it the first time back in 2005, two week after our angel Ducky passed away. She and Ducky
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            hi Judi,

                            Pancreatitis can come up really quickly. With Misty, she had it the first time back in 2005, two week after our angel Ducky passed away. She and Ducky were buddies, and I think the stress of losing him triggered it. Sometimes we've been able to get it to subside by giving her a bland diet and pancreatin supplement. I put half a capsule of pancreatin powder in her food twice a day. That's usually helped and in about two weeks the flare up went away. This last time though, last May, she's not recovered from. We think she got traumatized at the vet when they tried to get bloodwork. Ever since that day she's been in and out of her pacreatitis. Of course now she's much older, 19 1/2 now, and has more of other problems, so her pancreatitis isn't going away like it used to.

                            If you think Max may have pacreatitis, giving the pancreatin is a cheap fix to see if it helps. I bought NOW brand pancreatin capsules, and they were pretty inexpensive, about $7 a bottle of 100 capsules.

                            Maybe he threw up from all the excitement from the move. Hopefully he'll settle in and be back to his normal in a little while.

                            hugs,
                            Carol and Angel Snowball
                            and the gang


                            ----Original Message-----

                            I wasn't thinking Max was nauseated but I've been giving him slippery elm bark anyway. Maybe he is. In fact today he threw up for "no reason" which is not that normal for him (usually it's after he goes outside and eats some grass.) He had an ultrasound and labwork done earlier this year (in about July) and he didn't have pancreatitis then...I wonder if he's developed it since, does that seem likely? I hope not, because we have just arrived in Mexico for a 6 month stay...Judi and Max





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Judi Levens
                            thank you so much Carol...I think you are right that the excitement of the move may be the cause of his upset, and maybe even pancreatitis, although I
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              thank you so much Carol...I think you are right that the excitement of the move may be the cause of his upset, and maybe even pancreatitis, although I sincerely hope not. I have a friend coming in 3 weeks and I will have her bring some pancreatin...do you think that's soon enough? Judi and Max









                              To: casaobelisco@...; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: OT: Pancreatitis
                              From: carolroar@...
                              Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:59:41 -0500






                              hi Judi,

                              Pancreatitis can come up really quickly. With Misty, she had it the first time back in 2005, two week after our angel Ducky passed away. She and Ducky were buddies, and I think the stress of losing him triggered it. Sometimes we've been able to get it to subside by giving her a bland diet and pancreatin supplement. I put half a capsule of pancreatin powder in her food twice a day. That's usually helped and in about two weeks the flare up went away. This last time though, last May, she's not recovered from. We think she got traumatized at the vet when they tried to get bloodwork. Ever since that day she's been in and out of her pacreatitis. Of course now she's much older, 19 1/2 now, and has more of other problems, so her pancreatitis isn't going away like it used to.

                              If you think Max may have pacreatitis, giving the pancreatin is a cheap fix to see if it helps. I bought NOW brand pancreatin capsules, and they were pretty inexpensive, about $7 a bottle of 100 capsules.

                              Maybe he threw up from all the excitement from the move. Hopefully he'll settle in and be back to his normal in a little while.

                              hugs,
                              Carol and Angel Snowball
                              and the gang


                              ----Original Message-----

                              I wasn't thinking Max was nauseated but I've been giving him slippery elm bark anyway. Maybe he is. In fact today he threw up for "no reason" which is not that normal for him (usually it's after he goes outside and eats some grass.) He had an ultrasound and labwork done earlier this year (in about July) and he didn't have pancreatitis then...I wonder if he's developed it since, does that seem likely? I hope not, because we have just arrived in Mexico for a 6 month stay...Judi and Max


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Judi Levens
                              Carol...I cannot believe that you have another cat who s 19.5 years old! you must be doing something very right with them...when Snowball passed I was
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                Carol...I cannot believe that you have another cat who's 19.5 years old! you must be doing something very right with them...when Snowball passed I was astounded how great she looked for her age...keep up the great work! Judi and Max








                                To: casaobelisco@...; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                From: carolroar@...
                                Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:59:41 -0500
                                Subject: [FH] OT: Pancreatitis








                                hi Judi,

                                Pancreatitis can come up really quickly. With Misty, she had it the first time back in 2005, two week after our angel Ducky passed away. She and Ducky were buddies, and I think the stress of losing him triggered it. Sometimes we've been able to get it to subside by giving her a bland diet and pancreatin supplement. I put half a capsule of pancreatin powder in her food twice a day. That's usually helped and in about two weeks the flare up went away. This last time though, last May, she's not recovered from. We think she got traumatized at the vet when they tried to get bloodwork. Ever since that day she's been in and out of her pacreatitis. Of course now she's much older, 19 1/2 now, and has more of other problems, so her pancreatitis isn't going away like it used to.

                                If you think Max may have pacreatitis, giving the pancreatin is a cheap fix to see if it helps. I bought NOW brand pancreatin capsules, and they were pretty inexpensive, about $7 a bottle of 100 capsules.

                                Maybe he threw up from all the excitement from the move. Hopefully he'll settle in and be back to his normal in a little while.

                                hugs,
                                Carol and Angel Snowball
                                and the gang

                                ----Original Message-----

                                I wasn't thinking Max was nauseated but I've been giving him slippery elm bark anyway. Maybe he is. In fact today he threw up for "no reason" which is not that normal for him (usually it's after he goes outside and eats some grass.) He had an ultrasound and labwork done earlier this year (in about July) and he didn't have pancreatitis then...I wonder if he's developed it since, does that seem likely? I hope not, because we have just arrived in Mexico for a 6 month stay...Judi and Max

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mmayer11
                                Hi, again, Ruth. I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby s mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                  Hi, again, Ruth.

                                  I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                  HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                  Marianna



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • jruthaitken
                                  hi Marianna, you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 21, 2010
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                                    hi Marianna,

                                    you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                    Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                    please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                    best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him

                                    best wishes
                                    Ruth
                                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                    >
                                    > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                    > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                    > Marianna
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • cathrynbe2002
                                    Ruth, Why wouldn t the vets listen to you about the mouth issue? Don t they check his teeth at least? Does Rigsby, when eating, only eat dry food, not wet?
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
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                                      Ruth,

                                      Why wouldn't the vets listen to you about the mouth issue? Don't they check his teeth at least?

                                      Does Rigsby, when eating, only eat dry food, not wet?

                                      This sounds so heart wrenching but you're doing everything you can.

                                      Are you able to 'force' ... assist feed him yourself?

                                      Good luck today.

                                      many best wishes to you,
                                      Cathryn.


                                      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > hi Marianna,
                                      >
                                      > you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                      > Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                      > please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                      > best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him
                                      >
                                      > best wishes
                                      > Ruth
                                      > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                      > >
                                      > > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                      > > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                      > > Marianna
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • cathrynbe2002
                                      Hi Marianna, How do you give your cat the gels? My cat Madeline has heart disease and inflammatory bowel (they think) and hyperthyroid and I d like to give her
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
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                                        Hi Marianna,

                                        How do you give your cat the gels? My cat Madeline has heart disease and inflammatory bowel (they think) and hyperthyroid and I'd like to give her slippery elm - I was going to sprinkle some on her food from a powdered capsule. Is that best? How do you do gels?

                                        What do you think it's good for?

                                        Thanks so much.

                                        best,
                                        Cathryn.

                                        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                        >
                                        > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                        > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                        > Marianna
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Mmayer11
                                        Dear Ruth, The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Ruth,
                                          The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an abscessed tooth.



                                          HTH
                                          Marianna




                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
                                          To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                          Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby





                                          hi Marianna,

                                          you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                          Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                          please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                          best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him

                                          best wishes
                                          Ruth
                                          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                          >
                                          > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                          > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                          > Marianna
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >










                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Barbie
                                          I hope they dont have to put him under for anything. It is dangerous for HCM cats to be put under. I hate your cat is having such a yard time.  Bless his
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
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                                            I hope they dont' have to put him under for anything.
                                            It is dangerous for HCM cats to be put under.

                                            I hate your cat is having such a yard time.  Bless
                                            his heart.
                                             
                                            Barbie
                                             
                                            "Whoever wants to know something about me,
                                            must observe my paintings carefully and try to
                                            see in them what I am".
                                             
                                            Gustav Klimt
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...>
                                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:05:14 AM
                                            Subject: [FH] advice please for Rigsby

                                             


                                            Dear Ruth,
                                            The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor
                                            Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever
                                            so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and
                                            gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all
                                            the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a
                                            thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back
                                            beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got
                                            my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called
                                            in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a
                                            third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow
                                            did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was
                                            almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed
                                            founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these
                                            things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an
                                            abscessed tooth.

                                            HTH
                                            Marianna


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
                                            To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                            Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby

                                            hi Marianna,

                                            you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a
                                            vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at
                                            Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's
                                            mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't
                                            eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN
                                            HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with
                                            peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly
                                            these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible
                                            smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again
                                            - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back
                                            to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open
                                            until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed
                                            and has had this all along....?
                                            Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and
                                            I believe, non-significantly?

                                            please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I
                                            cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby
                                            is okay.
                                            best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I
                                            cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then
                                            (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him

                                            best wishes
                                            Ruth
                                            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                            >
                                            > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may
                                            >be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem
                                            >chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great
                                            >deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case
                                            >for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them
                                            >all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have
                                            >prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that
                                            >his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do
                                            >give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I
                                            >find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                            > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this
                                            >weekend.
                                            > Marianna
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Mmayer11
                                            Sent this earlier this morning, but it seems to have never been delivered. Sorry if it comes thru twice. Marianna ... From: Mmayer11 To:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Sent this earlier this morning, but it seems to have never been delivered. Sorry if it comes thru twice.



                                              Marianna




                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...>
                                              To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 10:05 am
                                              Subject: [FH] advice please for Rigsby






                                              Dear Ruth,
                                              The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an abscessed tooth.



                                              HTH
                                              Marianna




                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
                                              To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                              Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby





                                              hi Marianna,

                                              you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                              Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                              please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                              best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him

                                              best wishes
                                              Ruth
                                              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                              >
                                              > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                              > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                              > Marianna
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >











                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • jruthaitken
                                              hi all I have just had a conversation with the specialist - the one who didn t look in his mouth on friday - who says there is nothing more they can do for him
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                hi all
                                                I have just had a conversation with the specialist - the one who didn't look in his mouth on friday - who says there is nothing more they can do for him and they recommend putting him to sleep. they are giving fluid IV very slowly so only 240mls per day. i was giving 200mls at home. He is on pain meds but nothing else for the ulcers and no food.

                                                i said I would collect him tomorrow and arrange for my vet to carry out the PTS procedure at home. he won't let me get near the cage to do anything to do - they cannot take blood pressure or anything.

                                                I need urgent advice on treating uremic ulcers. He says when things are this bad the cat will not get better. Rigsby's creatinine is now 633 (up from 578 on friday, urean 60, down from 67 friday and phosphorus 5.5 down from 6.01 friday.

                                                he looks and smell awful but he is still going out and sociable - though depressed.
                                                what should I do? Is there anyone who can help? Should I try to find a holistic vet to treat the ulcers?
                                                I just don't know what to do.....
                                                PLEASE HELP!!!
                                                Ruth
                                                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Dear Ruth,
                                                > The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an abscessed tooth.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > HTH
                                                > Marianna
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
                                                > To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                                > Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > hi Marianna,
                                                >
                                                > you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                                > Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                                > please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                                > best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him
                                                >
                                                > best wishes
                                                > Ruth
                                                > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                                > >
                                                > > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                                > > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                                > > Marianna
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • cathrynbe2002
                                                what about dr. mark newkirk? I had a phone consult with him and he is very knowledgeable. 609-823-3031. He wasn t as alternative as I expected but maybe that s
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  what about dr. mark newkirk? I had a phone consult with him and he is very knowledgeable. 609-823-3031. He wasn't as alternative as I expected but maybe that's good in a way - he knows about both. He's in NJ - maybe if you say how urgent it is you could talk today... I know it may be time for your cat and the cat sounds wonderful but I agree maybe it's worth finding out if there's *anything* that can be done.

                                                  Where are you located?

                                                  I know it's easy to look back and say 'i should have done this,' 'they should have done that' when it seems like you've been staying on top of every last thing. don't be too hard on yourself. I have a feeling veterinary science is imperfect, as is life at times. sending good thoughts your way.

                                                  http://www.newkirkfamilyveterinarians.com/contact.html

                                                  best,
                                                  Cathryn.

                                                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > hi all
                                                  > I have just had a conversation with the specialist - the one who didn't look in his mouth on friday - who says there is nothing more they can do for him and they recommend putting him to sleep. they are giving fluid IV very slowly so only 240mls per day. i was giving 200mls at home. He is on pain meds but nothing else for the ulcers and no food.
                                                  >
                                                  > i said I would collect him tomorrow and arrange for my vet to carry out the PTS procedure at home. he won't let me get near the cage to do anything to do - they cannot take blood pressure or anything.
                                                  >
                                                  > I need urgent advice on treating uremic ulcers. He says when things are this bad the cat will not get better. Rigsby's creatinine is now 633 (up from 578 on friday, urean 60, down from 67 friday and phosphorus 5.5 down from 6.01 friday.
                                                  >
                                                  > he looks and smell awful but he is still going out and sociable - though depressed.
                                                  > what should I do? Is there anyone who can help? Should I try to find a holistic vet to treat the ulcers?
                                                  > I just don't know what to do.....
                                                  > PLEASE HELP!!!
                                                  > Ruth
                                                  > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Ruth,
                                                  > > The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an abscessed tooth.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > HTH
                                                  > > Marianna
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@>
                                                  > > To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > hi Marianna,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                                  > > Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                                  > > please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                                  > > best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him
                                                  > >
                                                  > > best wishes
                                                  > > Ruth
                                                  > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                                  > > > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                                  > > > Marianna
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • jruthaitken
                                                  hi Cathryn I am in London, England. who is Mark Newkirk? Should I know about him? thanks Ruth
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    hi Cathryn
                                                    I am in London, England.
                                                    who is Mark Newkirk? Should I know about him?
                                                    thanks
                                                    Ruth
                                                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "cathrynbe2002" <cathryn.be@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > what about dr. mark newkirk? I had a phone consult with him and he is very knowledgeable. 609-823-3031. He wasn't as alternative as I expected but maybe that's good in a way - he knows about both. He's in NJ - maybe if you say how urgent it is you could talk today... I know it may be time for your cat and the cat sounds wonderful but I agree maybe it's worth finding out if there's *anything* that can be done.
                                                    >
                                                    > Where are you located?
                                                    >
                                                    > I know it's easy to look back and say 'i should have done this,' 'they should have done that' when it seems like you've been staying on top of every last thing. don't be too hard on yourself. I have a feeling veterinary science is imperfect, as is life at times. sending good thoughts your way.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.newkirkfamilyveterinarians.com/contact.html
                                                    >
                                                    > best,
                                                    > Cathryn.
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > hi all
                                                    > > I have just had a conversation with the specialist - the one who didn't look in his mouth on friday - who says there is nothing more they can do for him and they recommend putting him to sleep. they are giving fluid IV very slowly so only 240mls per day. i was giving 200mls at home. He is on pain meds but nothing else for the ulcers and no food.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > i said I would collect him tomorrow and arrange for my vet to carry out the PTS procedure at home. he won't let me get near the cage to do anything to do - they cannot take blood pressure or anything.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I need urgent advice on treating uremic ulcers. He says when things are this bad the cat will not get better. Rigsby's creatinine is now 633 (up from 578 on friday, urean 60, down from 67 friday and phosphorus 5.5 down from 6.01 friday.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > he looks and smell awful but he is still going out and sociable - though depressed.
                                                    > > what should I do? Is there anyone who can help? Should I try to find a holistic vet to treat the ulcers?
                                                    > > I just don't know what to do.....
                                                    > > PLEASE HELP!!!
                                                    > > Ruth
                                                    > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dear Ruth,
                                                    > > > The blood seems to indicate...at least to me, so far away from you & poor Rigsby...that he may have an abscessed tooth. Your specialist may have to ever so lightly sedate Rigsby to give his mouth a true exam of all his teeth and gums. If I'm right, and I'm only guessing...this could explain many if not all the many troubles beyond not eating that you have witnessed. I would stick to a thorough mouth exam asap. I lost one of my horses to a mouth injury far back beyond the hard palate. I insisted on a mouth exam when she stopped eating...got my equine vet to do it, and when he found nothing, I was not satisfied. I called in a equine dentist. Neither found anything. I dragged the equine vet back for a third look, and only after he had his arm in my horse's mouth up to his elbow did he find the source for all her troubles...a 3 cm horizontal gash that was almost a 1/2 in. deep. But by then it was too late, b/c she had developed founder as a result of mouth trauma. I tell you this to demonstrate that these things are easily missed. So Rigsby's sudden down turn could be attributed to an abscessed tooth.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > HTH
                                                    > > > Marianna
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > > From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@>
                                                    > > > To: feline-heart <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 1:36 am
                                                    > > > Subject: Re: [FH] advice please for Rigsby
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > hi Marianna,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > you are right - after a terrible day yesterday with him not eating at all and a vet visit planned this morning - I noticed blood on the stairs. A closer look at Rigsby reveals that he has blood all around his mouth. his morning Rigsby's mouth is covered in blood - so perhaps we have an explanation of why he couldn't eat dried foods since last sunday and WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOOK IN HIS MOUTH FOR WEEKS ON END! i think he might have something connected with peridontal disease or now bleeding uremic ulcers. I am not sure how quickly these develop but they were not there last week - i am sure this is the terrible smell. how can I force anything into his mouth? I am about to give fluids again - he weighs almost nothing now - and then I am going to drive like a maniac back to the specialist hospital and insist they keep him in. My own vet is not open until 9am. I am shaking like a leaf....I wonder also whether he has a GI bleed and has had this all along....?
                                                    > > > Perhaps this would explain why creatinine is unchanged, except only slightly and I believe, non-significantly?
                                                    > > > please think about us today....I have a work appointment at 1pm, which I cancelled on friday.....I have to try to get there as well as make sure Rigsby is okay.
                                                    > > > best wishes and thank you once again to everyone who lit candles for us - I cannot tell you what it means. I have not shut down my computer since then (putting it on sleep) so that the candles continue to burn for him
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > best wishes
                                                    > > > Ruth
                                                    > > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Mmayer11 <mmayer11@> wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Hi, again, Ruth.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I had a thought as I read through your post describing Rigsby's mouth.You may be right that his mouth may have sores. But Muschka has a similar problem chewing. In Muschka's case it is his teeth that are his problem. He has a great deal of difficulty chewing cat biscuits or any hard treats. This may be the case for Ridgsy as well. Though Muschka loves biscuits, he often doesn't eat them all, simply because they are too difficult to chew. His cardio troubles have prevented me from scheduling a full blown extensive teeth cleaning process that his vet has determined would be good to do, but would require anesthesia. I do give him Slippery Elm gels every day, several times a day in fact. As you know I find it useful for a multitude of digestive and inflammatory ills.
                                                    > > > > HTH, and that you both can pass some much needed peaceful time through this weekend.
                                                    > > > > Marianna
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • carolroar@aol.com
                                                    hi Ruth, Dr. Newkirk is in New Jersey, in the states. I ve worked with him before and he s expensive, but I think he s very good. Here s his website.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      hi Ruth,

                                                      Dr. Newkirk is in New Jersey, in the states. I've worked with him before and he's expensive, but I think he's very good. Here's his website. http://www.alternativevet.com/

                                                      Another vet I'm working with right now is Dr. Deva Khalsa. She does homeopathy and herbal things, mostly she's holistic. http://www.doctordeva.com/

                                                      I don't ever believe it when vets tell me there's nothing to be done but PTS. If it were me, I'd get Rigsby out of there and take him home. If he is that bad, and the end is near, I'd rather have him home and comfortable.

                                                      The mouth ulcers can respond well to using the slippery elm syrup. Another thing would be giving liquid Carafate. It not only coats the stomach lining, but any that gets in the mouth will help with sores there too.

                                                      I'm so sorry this is all happening to you and Rigsby. I'm still sending prayers your way and praying for that little miracle for Rigsby.

                                                      hugs,
                                                      Carol and Angel Snowball
                                                      and the gang







                                                      -----Original Message-----

                                                      >>


                                                      hi Cathryn
                                                      I am in London, England.
                                                      who is Mark Newkirk? Should I know about him?
                                                      thanks
                                                      Ruth
                                                      >>

                                                      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "cathrynbe2002" <cathryn.be@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > what about dr. mark newkirk? I had a phone consult with him and he is very knowledgeable. 609-823-3031. He wasn't as alternative as I expected but maybe that's good in a way - he knows about both. He's in NJ





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