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Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy

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  • C.R.
    hi Sue, If you do decide to change the food, I think that s a good idea, try to pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast and
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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      hi Sue,

      If you do decide to change the food, I think that's a good idea, try to pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the best choice. Here's a link to the food charts from Janet and Binky's site for diabetic cats. This will help you find something and you can compare the different brands.

      http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm

      Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
      and the gang
    • C.R.
      Oh, I just wanted to add to what I said before, about the Fancy Feast, I meant to say that some of the Fancy Feast have a lot of carbs. If you look at Janet
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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        Oh, I just wanted to add to what I said before, about the Fancy Feast, I meant to say that some of the Fancy Feast have a lot of carbs. If you look at Janet and Binky's food charts, you can see which one are better.

        Carol

        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C.R." <carolroars@...> wrote:
        >
        The regular foods like Fancy Feast and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the best choice. different brands.
        >
        > http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm
        >
        > Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
        > and the gang
        >
      • Pat
        Hi Carol; I don t mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is being passed around on this. Cats don t have glucokinase so can t process
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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          Hi Carol;

          I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is
          being passed around on this. Cats don't have glucokinase so can't process
          simple carbohydrates:
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11714241
          "Both diabetic cats and normal cats showed similar patterns of eating, with
          a higher food intake in the 2 h after fresh food was placed. Both groups of
          cats ate multiple small meals spread through the day and night. There was
          little or no correlation between the blood glucose and the amount of food
          consumed over the previous 2-h period, in insulin- or non-insulin-treated
          diabetic cats, or in normal cats. An overnight fast did not significantly
          alter morning blood glucose in diabetic cats. No demonstrable appetite
          stimulation occurred following an occurrence of low blood glucose; however,
          recorded incidences were few. No post-prandial hyperglycaemia was seen in
          the 10 diabetic cats during a 2-h period following the ingestion of typical
          cat foods"

          Insulin resistance is caused by "serum lipids" or too much fat in the diet.
          This is what Deb Zoran is discussing in her *recent* presentation, but
          unfortunately most people seem to want to still lean on her former feelings
          around feeding cats, even though she has done a 180 on this, which was how I
          was introduced to the fact that it is altering our cats that brings on
          "dietary fat" related illness:
          http://tinyurl.com/a85f2g
          "These data provide evidence that in cats, high dietary fat, but not
          carbohydrate, induces weight gain and a congruent increase in insulin,"

          It is better to keep the demand placed upon the pancreas slow and even if
          you want full recovery, so what is working well for all the owners I know is
          low fat grazing food with treats of canned when meds/shots are given.

          Any other information is outdated since the gonadectomy studies started
          surfacing. While Hamlet's advanced age and the scar tissue on his pancreas
          makes him unable to totally stay off insulin now, he stays "within range" on
          Lantus, (aka Glargine), 24/7, which is great for his heart murmur and all
          other body parts needing steady glucose delivery. Part of the problem with
          establishing a good protocol in the past was that there wasn't a good
          insulin approved for use with cats. Now there is, and because carbs don't
          register, it can get downright boring to the point I forget to do his spot
          checks: http://tinyurl.com/ydebpcm/ Cats are the only species that I know
          of that don't have to worry about carbohydrates affecting glucose levels, by
          the way.

          I did some research a while ago trying to find out what the term "low" meant
          as far as carbs were concerned as not even the FDA is willing to provide
          guidelines although some sort of project has been "in process" for years.
          Basically, low fat is about 10% fat content, and low carbs are about 30%.
          There was one study to do with feline diabetes that used the term "ultra
          low" carbs for a food that was 25% carbohydrates.

          Both Pepper, (hole in heart), and Hamlet, (diabetic), are doing just great
          on grazing dry food, with good lab work coming in year after year. We also
          provide whatever water sources are asked for, and when meds are dispensed,
          the treat is a family meal of Fancy Feast. That is about the lowest fat
          content canned food I have been able to find so far, other than the plain
          tuna such as that put out by Solid Gold. I prefer to get some organ meats
          in there for the weak organed boys such as "Liver and Chicken" or "Turkey
          and Giblets". Also I have freeze dried treats that don't have any
          accompanying gimmicks to please humans. Quail hearts are great, and we also
          serve salmon that we have cut into little bite sized cubes:
          http://www.mycanadianpets.ca/gpage.html

          Also, to keep down blood pressure and kidney issues I prefer to use the
          KatKarma site:
          http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. Whoever is maintaining that
          site is smart enough to understand that carbs are not the big issue as they
          aren't even listed, which is a real blessing as the "no carbs" fad is such
          old news.

          I do understand that you aren't likely to be up on diabetes maintenance as
          to my knowledge, you have yet to experience the joys of a diabetic cat?

          HTH.....Pat and all the boys
          http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
          http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
          http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "C.R." <carolroars@...>
          To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:18 AM
          Subject: Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy


          > hi Sue,
          >
          > If you do decide to change the food, I think that's a good idea, try to
          > pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast
          > and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the
          > best choice. Here's a link to the food charts from Janet and Binky's site
          > for diabetic cats. This will help you find something and you can compare
          > the different brands.
        • C.R.
          hi Pat, No problem. I don t understand most of what you wrote in your post here, but I take your word for it. And yes, I do have a diabetic cat. My Boo was
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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            hi Pat,

            No problem. I don't understand most of what you wrote in your post here, but I take your word for it.

            And yes, I do have a diabetic cat. My Boo was just diagnosed diabetic, so I'm learning. What I've been told by two allopathic and 3 holistic vets is no carbs or low carbs. I was just passing on that info.

            Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
            and the gang

            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <Pat.Creighton@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Carol;
            >
            > I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is
            > being passed around on this.
          • C.R.
            The reason the karkarma site doesn t list carbs, is because it s a CRF site. Noreen who owns the site put those food charts together in the memory of her cat,
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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              The reason the karkarma site doesn't list carbs, is because it's a CRF site. Noreen who owns the site put those food charts together in the memory of her cat, Slick, who died from renal failure.

              I do think it's important to limit carbs in a cat's diet. Having had 3 cats with pancreatitis, carbs seem to be very bad for them. I'm only going on what's been my experience with my guys, and that may not be the rule for everyone.


              Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
              and the gang



              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <Pat.Creighton@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Carol;
              > Also, to keep down blood pressure and kidney issues I prefer to use the KatKarma site:
              > http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. Whoever is maintaining that site is smart enough to understand that carbs are not the big issue as they aren't even listed,
            • Vicky
              Pat, We aren t feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates, while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily grains or complex
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                Pat,

                We aren't feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates,
                while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily
                grains or complex carbs.

                As to the fat - when the percent of calories from fat in most dry food
                is >30% (dry matter analysis, not as fed), you can bet that's going to
                make neutered males fat!

                And when quoting studies, please provide data from something less than
                10 years old. And Lantus has not been approved by the FDA for use in
                cats, more vets are simply getting on board with using it off label.

                "Cats are the only species that I know
                of that don't have to worry about carbohydrates affecting glucose
                levels, by
                the way."


                Simple carbs perhaps, yes, but complex is another story.

                Vicky


                On Apr 25, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Pat wrote:

                > Hi Carol;
                >
                > I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information
                > is
                > being passed around on this. Cats don't have glucokinase so can't
                > process
                > simple carbohydrates:
                > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11714241
                > "


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pat
                Hello Vicky; ... From: Vicky ... Corn flour, rice flour, potatoes, and other white items are also examples of simple carbohydrates
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                  Hello Vicky;

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Vicky" <zhrbjn@...>
                  > We aren't feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates,
                  > while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily
                  > grains or complex carbs.

                  Corn flour, rice flour, potatoes, and other "white" items are also examples
                  of "simple carbohydrates" according to the training given in dietitians
                  courses, although in recent years they are making the topic more complex,
                  probably in order to create business for themselves as the modern
                  terminology, for the purposes of diabetes, is very confusing.

                  I am glad you understand the difference between "white" carbs and what we
                  find in our commercial cat foods as that should make it very easy for you to
                  understand why Jacquie Rand's cats weren't affected by "typical" cat foods,
                  and why "carbs" are falsely focused upon. This is important for cats with
                  heart problems, too, as avoiding "carbs" and serving high fat foods instead
                  is not going to provide longevity for a heart patient, either.

                  > As to the fat - when the percent of calories from fat in most dry food
                  > is >30% (dry matter analysis, not as fed), you can bet that's going to
                  > make neutered males fat!

                  Right. Cats don't need fat any more than they do simple carbohydrates other
                  than essential fatty acids, which is why the NRC is only showing a need for
                  EFA's, for starters.

                  > And when quoting studies, please provide data from something less than
                  > 10 years old.

                  I'm sorry, I don't get your point here? I don't get paid enough for this to
                  chase down every study and check its date for each individual message I
                  send, which is why I have all that information on my websites with the
                  hypertext to the actual studies. About 99% of the studies Deb Zoran
                  referred to in her presentation came out from about 2006 and later, but
                  there were earlier "gonadectomy" studies rumbling away out there. That is
                  why I am wondering why it is taking so long for veterinarians to get on the
                  band wagon here, and that is a pet peeve of Deb's too, as she complained
                  that vets aren't doing adequate followup for these issues after doing the
                  surgery itself. For those who want more information, I suggested doing
                  Google Scholar searches using "gonadectomy" and whatever other connection
                  you wish.

                  Or, are you saying that if a study is more than 10 years old it isn't valid?
                  That would mean that the study finding a need for extra taurine in
                  commercial foods for cats is no longer valid as it came out a couple of
                  years after Pottenger's death, (1967). And speaking of Pottenger, his
                  demonstration that the ingredient list, and proportions make the difference
                  between success and failure for cat health are very valid in all foods we
                  feed in 2010.

                  >And Lantus has not been approved by the FDA for use in
                  > cats, more vets are simply getting on board with using it off label.

                  I'm sorry. I just assume it is easy for everyone to access Lantus/Glargine.
                  I do know that a lot of US members of my feline diabetes list have managed
                  to push their veterinarians into allowing them to change to Lantus. It is a
                  shame the FDA is so far behind other countries on this as it must be costing
                  owners much distress with unstable cats, and often it will be costing cat
                  lives.

                  > Simple carbs perhaps, yes, but complex is another story.

                  Well you have asked me to provide the latest studies to support what I say,
                  which are always found on my websites, but I don't get what you mean with
                  your last statement here. It is very cryptic and you have not provided the
                  same courtesy of a URL at all in your post, that I can see? "Complex
                  carbs" are fermentable fibers, and most of them are useless fillers for
                  cats. Some, such as guar gum, are not feline appropriate and cause loose
                  stools for two of our cats just as they do for some humans. Other fibers
                  are too harsh for the GIT. The only complex carbohydrates that have proven
                  appropriate for cats and dogs have been beet pulp and rice bran, which is
                  why they come up in discussions where health issues are trying to be
                  resolved. There would be more good information about good gut health on Pat
                  Erickson's site:
                  http://www.felineconstipation.org/.

                  These fermentable fibers have nothing to do with the "carbs" being thrown
                  around on the web, as you say - I agree with you totally. They also aren't
                  listed on pet food labels as they don't provide nutrients. Complex carbs
                  clean lipoproteins out of the system when needed, so I personally don't have
                  a problem with them at all. They, again, will benefit heart health, which
                  is the focus of this list.

                  Pat and all the boys
                  http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                  http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                  http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                • BubbaCat1@aol.com
                  Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he ate a meal
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                    Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten
                    dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he
                    ate a meal of dry kibble his glucose would spike but the Humulin N dropped it
                    pretty quickly. We now have gentler insulins with flatter curves, so I try
                    to stay away from the dry foods. But I have a diabetic now that will
                    sometimes refuse all canned flavors and only eat dry. When that happens I can
                    count on an increase of 50-75 points in her glucose.


                    Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject of FD food choices, and
                    leave it up to the lister to work with her vet in determining the right food
                    for Buddy. For more details in controlling FD, I would suggest joining a
                    group specifically for Feline Diabetes. Meanwhile, there's lots of info
                    available on the internet. Try felinediabetes.com and here's another from
                    Cornell:
                    _Feline Diabetes_ (http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/diabetes.html)

                    (Excerpt:) A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can
                    achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar
                    levels after eating. (Underweight cats should initially be fed a high calorie
                    diet until they reach their ideal body weight.) Other diabetic cats respond
                    well to carbohydrate-restricted diets. Although diabetic cats have been
                    successfully managed with both types of diets, some cats respond better to
                    high-fiber diets and others to low-carbohydrate diets. Trial and error can
                    help determine the best diet for your cat.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jo





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Westgold
                    Well I have to comment on that last paragraph. That is OLD THINKING. I know that many vets still tell people to feed their plump kitties dry lite and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 26, 2010
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                      Well I have to comment on that last paragraph. That is OLD THINKING. I know that many vets still tell people to feed their plump kitties dry lite and reducing diets, but those are even worse than regular dry foods -- they have even MORE carbs than the regular dry foods. If you ask the people on the felinediabetes group what they were feeding their kitties at the time they became diabetic, almost all of them will tell you it was the dry lite or reducing diets. I was feeding my Pooh that too. But in the summer of 2001 the new way to manage diabetes hit the popular press, that was the first time I'd ever heard of it. I switched him to mroe canned food, and within only 3 weeks he no longer needed insulin, and never needed it again. Not every kitty responds like that but I feel everyone should TRY to get their kitties off insulin with all canned food. When it works, it really works. Now there has been a lot written about how kitties on all-canned can lose weight easily without losing muscle mass. Yet many vets are still pushing the dry lite and reducing diets. I guess it's because they sell them...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: BubbaCat1@...
                      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:50 PM
                      Subject: Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy



                      Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten
                      dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he
                      ate a meal of dry kibble his glucose would spike but the Humulin N dropped it
                      pretty quickly. We now have gentler insulins with flatter curves, so I try
                      to stay away from the dry foods. But I have a diabetic now that will
                      sometimes refuse all canned flavors and only eat dry. When that happens I can
                      count on an increase of 50-75 points in her glucose.


                      Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject of FD food choices, and
                      leave it up to the lister to work with her vet in determining the right food
                      for Buddy. For more details in controlling FD, I would suggest joining a
                      group specifically for Feline Diabetes. Meanwhile, there's lots of info
                      available on the internet. Try felinediabetes.com and here's another from
                      Cornell:
                      _Feline Diabetes_ (http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/diabetes.html)

                      (Excerpt:) A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can
                      achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar
                      levels after eating. (Underweight cats should initially be fed a high calorie
                      diet until they reach their ideal body weight.) Other diabetic cats respond
                      well to carbohydrate-restricted diets. Although diabetic cats have been
                      successfully managed with both types of diets, some cats respond better to
                      high-fiber diets and others to low-carbohydrate diets. Trial and error can
                      help determine the best diet for your cat.

                      Best wishes,
                      Jo

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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