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Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy

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  • Westgold
    Hi -- I know about diabetes. If Buddy was mine, I would immediately change his diet to all canned. No treats except for cooked chicken or turkey, no kibbles
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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      Hi -- I know about diabetes. If Buddy was mine, I would immediately change his diet to all canned. No treats except for cooked chicken or turkey, no kibbles at all. Any name-brand canned food will do -- Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc are excellent. Add a little extra water. If he's been eating only dry food, make this change gradually, add a bit of canned food everyday, increasing it a bit everyday for a week or so, etc. If you change too fast that could upset his tummy. Let him have as much of this as he wants, even if he's overweight he will slim down naturally without losing muscle mass. It has been shown that a high-protein low-carb diet is best for diabetic cats. Once I learned about it, I was able to get my diabetic cat off insulin after he was on it for 4 years. I have helped a lot of other cats get off insulin too. Even if they don't get completely off, most will be able to reduce the amount of insulin they are taking, and this helps reduce complications. IF this diet works for Buddy, then you won't have to worry about the diabetes and can just worry about the CHF. So try it! Since you're starting it so soon after his diabetes diagnosis, it just might work right away. Some other people may tell you that using the dry food made for diabetics is ok, and in some cases it is --- but if you want the very best chance of getting him off insulin, please just use all canned.

      take care -- Michelle & Tigger Too in Toronto


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: rs_salg
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:52 AM
      Subject: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy



      Hi, all. Does anyone have knowledge on the interactions of CHF & Diabetes? My Buddy was diagnosed with diabetes 60 days or so and we couldn't get him regulated. After going to a specialist 2hrs from where we live, we discovered he also has CHF. Tomorrow we are taking him to the hospital for 4 days where they are going to try and get the fluid out of him while we are switching him to Glargine (Lantus) insulin. They put him on benazepril this past Friday, we're starting him on Lantus this evening, and when he goes in they are also putting him on lasik.
      Our vet said that treating the one thing could make the other thing worse. When she has him on lasik, she said that it will make him thirstier. If he gets ketones, he will need an IV fluid that could blast his heart.
      I could use some help on basics. When he drinks water, that goes into his stomach, right? But the IV is into his veins so that's where the problem starts? When he's on lasik and drinks more water, won't that put a stress on his kidneys? Will it also hurt the CHF?
      What do I need to look out for once we bring him home from the hospital?
      Thanks, Sue & Buddy





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • C.R.
      hi Sue, If you do decide to change the food, I think that s a good idea, try to pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast and
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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        hi Sue,

        If you do decide to change the food, I think that's a good idea, try to pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the best choice. Here's a link to the food charts from Janet and Binky's site for diabetic cats. This will help you find something and you can compare the different brands.

        http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm

        Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
        and the gang
      • C.R.
        Oh, I just wanted to add to what I said before, about the Fancy Feast, I meant to say that some of the Fancy Feast have a lot of carbs. If you look at Janet
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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          Oh, I just wanted to add to what I said before, about the Fancy Feast, I meant to say that some of the Fancy Feast have a lot of carbs. If you look at Janet and Binky's food charts, you can see which one are better.

          Carol

          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C.R." <carolroars@...> wrote:
          >
          The regular foods like Fancy Feast and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the best choice. different brands.
          >
          > http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm
          >
          > Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
          > and the gang
          >
        • Pat
          Hi Carol; I don t mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is being passed around on this. Cats don t have glucokinase so can t process
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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            Hi Carol;

            I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is
            being passed around on this. Cats don't have glucokinase so can't process
            simple carbohydrates:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11714241
            "Both diabetic cats and normal cats showed similar patterns of eating, with
            a higher food intake in the 2 h after fresh food was placed. Both groups of
            cats ate multiple small meals spread through the day and night. There was
            little or no correlation between the blood glucose and the amount of food
            consumed over the previous 2-h period, in insulin- or non-insulin-treated
            diabetic cats, or in normal cats. An overnight fast did not significantly
            alter morning blood glucose in diabetic cats. No demonstrable appetite
            stimulation occurred following an occurrence of low blood glucose; however,
            recorded incidences were few. No post-prandial hyperglycaemia was seen in
            the 10 diabetic cats during a 2-h period following the ingestion of typical
            cat foods"

            Insulin resistance is caused by "serum lipids" or too much fat in the diet.
            This is what Deb Zoran is discussing in her *recent* presentation, but
            unfortunately most people seem to want to still lean on her former feelings
            around feeding cats, even though she has done a 180 on this, which was how I
            was introduced to the fact that it is altering our cats that brings on
            "dietary fat" related illness:
            http://tinyurl.com/a85f2g
            "These data provide evidence that in cats, high dietary fat, but not
            carbohydrate, induces weight gain and a congruent increase in insulin,"

            It is better to keep the demand placed upon the pancreas slow and even if
            you want full recovery, so what is working well for all the owners I know is
            low fat grazing food with treats of canned when meds/shots are given.

            Any other information is outdated since the gonadectomy studies started
            surfacing. While Hamlet's advanced age and the scar tissue on his pancreas
            makes him unable to totally stay off insulin now, he stays "within range" on
            Lantus, (aka Glargine), 24/7, which is great for his heart murmur and all
            other body parts needing steady glucose delivery. Part of the problem with
            establishing a good protocol in the past was that there wasn't a good
            insulin approved for use with cats. Now there is, and because carbs don't
            register, it can get downright boring to the point I forget to do his spot
            checks: http://tinyurl.com/ydebpcm/ Cats are the only species that I know
            of that don't have to worry about carbohydrates affecting glucose levels, by
            the way.

            I did some research a while ago trying to find out what the term "low" meant
            as far as carbs were concerned as not even the FDA is willing to provide
            guidelines although some sort of project has been "in process" for years.
            Basically, low fat is about 10% fat content, and low carbs are about 30%.
            There was one study to do with feline diabetes that used the term "ultra
            low" carbs for a food that was 25% carbohydrates.

            Both Pepper, (hole in heart), and Hamlet, (diabetic), are doing just great
            on grazing dry food, with good lab work coming in year after year. We also
            provide whatever water sources are asked for, and when meds are dispensed,
            the treat is a family meal of Fancy Feast. That is about the lowest fat
            content canned food I have been able to find so far, other than the plain
            tuna such as that put out by Solid Gold. I prefer to get some organ meats
            in there for the weak organed boys such as "Liver and Chicken" or "Turkey
            and Giblets". Also I have freeze dried treats that don't have any
            accompanying gimmicks to please humans. Quail hearts are great, and we also
            serve salmon that we have cut into little bite sized cubes:
            http://www.mycanadianpets.ca/gpage.html

            Also, to keep down blood pressure and kidney issues I prefer to use the
            KatKarma site:
            http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. Whoever is maintaining that
            site is smart enough to understand that carbs are not the big issue as they
            aren't even listed, which is a real blessing as the "no carbs" fad is such
            old news.

            I do understand that you aren't likely to be up on diabetes maintenance as
            to my knowledge, you have yet to experience the joys of a diabetic cat?

            HTH.....Pat and all the boys
            http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
            http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
            http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "C.R." <carolroars@...>
            To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy


            > hi Sue,
            >
            > If you do decide to change the food, I think that's a good idea, try to
            > pick foods that have low or no carbs. The regular foods like Fancy Feast
            > and other store brands can have a lot of carbs in them, so maybe not the
            > best choice. Here's a link to the food charts from Janet and Binky's site
            > for diabetic cats. This will help you find something and you can compare
            > the different brands.
          • C.R.
            hi Pat, No problem. I don t understand most of what you wrote in your post here, but I take your word for it. And yes, I do have a diabetic cat. My Boo was
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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              hi Pat,

              No problem. I don't understand most of what you wrote in your post here, but I take your word for it.

              And yes, I do have a diabetic cat. My Boo was just diagnosed diabetic, so I'm learning. What I've been told by two allopathic and 3 holistic vets is no carbs or low carbs. I was just passing on that info.

              Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
              and the gang

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <Pat.Creighton@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Carol;
              >
              > I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information is
              > being passed around on this.
            • C.R.
              The reason the karkarma site doesn t list carbs, is because it s a CRF site. Noreen who owns the site put those food charts together in the memory of her cat,
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                The reason the karkarma site doesn't list carbs, is because it's a CRF site. Noreen who owns the site put those food charts together in the memory of her cat, Slick, who died from renal failure.

                I do think it's important to limit carbs in a cat's diet. Having had 3 cats with pancreatitis, carbs seem to be very bad for them. I'm only going on what's been my experience with my guys, and that may not be the rule for everyone.


                Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*
                and the gang



                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <Pat.Creighton@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Carol;
                > Also, to keep down blood pressure and kidney issues I prefer to use the KatKarma site:
                > http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. Whoever is maintaining that site is smart enough to understand that carbs are not the big issue as they aren't even listed,
              • Vicky
                Pat, We aren t feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates, while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily grains or complex
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                  Pat,

                  We aren't feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates,
                  while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily
                  grains or complex carbs.

                  As to the fat - when the percent of calories from fat in most dry food
                  is >30% (dry matter analysis, not as fed), you can bet that's going to
                  make neutered males fat!

                  And when quoting studies, please provide data from something less than
                  10 years old. And Lantus has not been approved by the FDA for use in
                  cats, more vets are simply getting on board with using it off label.

                  "Cats are the only species that I know
                  of that don't have to worry about carbohydrates affecting glucose
                  levels, by
                  the way."


                  Simple carbs perhaps, yes, but complex is another story.

                  Vicky


                  On Apr 25, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Pat wrote:

                  > Hi Carol;
                  >
                  > I don't mean to pick on your posting here, but the wrong information
                  > is
                  > being passed around on this. Cats don't have glucokinase so can't
                  > process
                  > simple carbohydrates:
                  > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11714241
                  > "


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Pat
                  Hello Vicky; ... From: Vicky ... Corn flour, rice flour, potatoes, and other white items are also examples of simple carbohydrates
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                    Hello Vicky;

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Vicky" <zhrbjn@...>
                    > We aren't feeding our cats sweets. Sweets are simple carbohydrates,
                    > while grains are complex carbohydrates. Most dry food is primarily
                    > grains or complex carbs.

                    Corn flour, rice flour, potatoes, and other "white" items are also examples
                    of "simple carbohydrates" according to the training given in dietitians
                    courses, although in recent years they are making the topic more complex,
                    probably in order to create business for themselves as the modern
                    terminology, for the purposes of diabetes, is very confusing.

                    I am glad you understand the difference between "white" carbs and what we
                    find in our commercial cat foods as that should make it very easy for you to
                    understand why Jacquie Rand's cats weren't affected by "typical" cat foods,
                    and why "carbs" are falsely focused upon. This is important for cats with
                    heart problems, too, as avoiding "carbs" and serving high fat foods instead
                    is not going to provide longevity for a heart patient, either.

                    > As to the fat - when the percent of calories from fat in most dry food
                    > is >30% (dry matter analysis, not as fed), you can bet that's going to
                    > make neutered males fat!

                    Right. Cats don't need fat any more than they do simple carbohydrates other
                    than essential fatty acids, which is why the NRC is only showing a need for
                    EFA's, for starters.

                    > And when quoting studies, please provide data from something less than
                    > 10 years old.

                    I'm sorry, I don't get your point here? I don't get paid enough for this to
                    chase down every study and check its date for each individual message I
                    send, which is why I have all that information on my websites with the
                    hypertext to the actual studies. About 99% of the studies Deb Zoran
                    referred to in her presentation came out from about 2006 and later, but
                    there were earlier "gonadectomy" studies rumbling away out there. That is
                    why I am wondering why it is taking so long for veterinarians to get on the
                    band wagon here, and that is a pet peeve of Deb's too, as she complained
                    that vets aren't doing adequate followup for these issues after doing the
                    surgery itself. For those who want more information, I suggested doing
                    Google Scholar searches using "gonadectomy" and whatever other connection
                    you wish.

                    Or, are you saying that if a study is more than 10 years old it isn't valid?
                    That would mean that the study finding a need for extra taurine in
                    commercial foods for cats is no longer valid as it came out a couple of
                    years after Pottenger's death, (1967). And speaking of Pottenger, his
                    demonstration that the ingredient list, and proportions make the difference
                    between success and failure for cat health are very valid in all foods we
                    feed in 2010.

                    >And Lantus has not been approved by the FDA for use in
                    > cats, more vets are simply getting on board with using it off label.

                    I'm sorry. I just assume it is easy for everyone to access Lantus/Glargine.
                    I do know that a lot of US members of my feline diabetes list have managed
                    to push their veterinarians into allowing them to change to Lantus. It is a
                    shame the FDA is so far behind other countries on this as it must be costing
                    owners much distress with unstable cats, and often it will be costing cat
                    lives.

                    > Simple carbs perhaps, yes, but complex is another story.

                    Well you have asked me to provide the latest studies to support what I say,
                    which are always found on my websites, but I don't get what you mean with
                    your last statement here. It is very cryptic and you have not provided the
                    same courtesy of a URL at all in your post, that I can see? "Complex
                    carbs" are fermentable fibers, and most of them are useless fillers for
                    cats. Some, such as guar gum, are not feline appropriate and cause loose
                    stools for two of our cats just as they do for some humans. Other fibers
                    are too harsh for the GIT. The only complex carbohydrates that have proven
                    appropriate for cats and dogs have been beet pulp and rice bran, which is
                    why they come up in discussions where health issues are trying to be
                    resolved. There would be more good information about good gut health on Pat
                    Erickson's site:
                    http://www.felineconstipation.org/.

                    These fermentable fibers have nothing to do with the "carbs" being thrown
                    around on the web, as you say - I agree with you totally. They also aren't
                    listed on pet food labels as they don't provide nutrients. Complex carbs
                    clean lipoproteins out of the system when needed, so I personally don't have
                    a problem with them at all. They, again, will benefit heart health, which
                    is the focus of this list.

                    Pat and all the boys
                    http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                    http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                    http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                  • BubbaCat1@aol.com
                    Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he ate a meal
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 25, 2010
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                      Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten
                      dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he
                      ate a meal of dry kibble his glucose would spike but the Humulin N dropped it
                      pretty quickly. We now have gentler insulins with flatter curves, so I try
                      to stay away from the dry foods. But I have a diabetic now that will
                      sometimes refuse all canned flavors and only eat dry. When that happens I can
                      count on an increase of 50-75 points in her glucose.


                      Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject of FD food choices, and
                      leave it up to the lister to work with her vet in determining the right food
                      for Buddy. For more details in controlling FD, I would suggest joining a
                      group specifically for Feline Diabetes. Meanwhile, there's lots of info
                      available on the internet. Try felinediabetes.com and here's another from
                      Cornell:
                      _Feline Diabetes_ (http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/diabetes.html)

                      (Excerpt:) A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can
                      achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar
                      levels after eating. (Underweight cats should initially be fed a high calorie
                      diet until they reach their ideal body weight.) Other diabetic cats respond
                      well to carbohydrate-restricted diets. Although diabetic cats have been
                      successfully managed with both types of diets, some cats respond better to
                      high-fiber diets and others to low-carbohydrate diets. Trial and error can
                      help determine the best diet for your cat.

                      Best wishes,
                      Jo





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Westgold
                      Well I have to comment on that last paragraph. That is OLD THINKING. I know that many vets still tell people to feed their plump kitties dry lite and
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 26, 2010
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                        Well I have to comment on that last paragraph. That is OLD THINKING. I know that many vets still tell people to feed their plump kitties dry lite and reducing diets, but those are even worse than regular dry foods -- they have even MORE carbs than the regular dry foods. If you ask the people on the felinediabetes group what they were feeding their kitties at the time they became diabetic, almost all of them will tell you it was the dry lite or reducing diets. I was feeding my Pooh that too. But in the summer of 2001 the new way to manage diabetes hit the popular press, that was the first time I'd ever heard of it. I switched him to mroe canned food, and within only 3 weeks he no longer needed insulin, and never needed it again. Not every kitty responds like that but I feel everyone should TRY to get their kitties off insulin with all canned food. When it works, it really works. Now there has been a lot written about how kitties on all-canned can lose weight easily without losing muscle mass. Yet many vets are still pushing the dry lite and reducing diets. I guess it's because they sell them...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: BubbaCat1@...
                        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:50 PM
                        Subject: Re: [FH] CHF & Diabetes-Introducing Buddy



                        Personally, I know I see a spike in glucose after my diabetics have eaten
                        dry food. My first diabetic was on Humulin N (15+ years ago), so when he
                        ate a meal of dry kibble his glucose would spike but the Humulin N dropped it
                        pretty quickly. We now have gentler insulins with flatter curves, so I try
                        to stay away from the dry foods. But I have a diabetic now that will
                        sometimes refuse all canned flavors and only eat dry. When that happens I can
                        count on an increase of 50-75 points in her glucose.


                        Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject of FD food choices, and
                        leave it up to the lister to work with her vet in determining the right food
                        for Buddy. For more details in controlling FD, I would suggest joining a
                        group specifically for Feline Diabetes. Meanwhile, there's lots of info
                        available on the internet. Try felinediabetes.com and here's another from
                        Cornell:
                        _Feline Diabetes_ (http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/diabetes.html)

                        (Excerpt:) A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can
                        achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar
                        levels after eating. (Underweight cats should initially be fed a high calorie
                        diet until they reach their ideal body weight.) Other diabetic cats respond
                        well to carbohydrate-restricted diets. Although diabetic cats have been
                        successfully managed with both types of diets, some cats respond better to
                        high-fiber diets and others to low-carbohydrate diets. Trial and error can
                        help determine the best diet for your cat.

                        Best wishes,
                        Jo

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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