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use of cholesterol lowering spread in pill administration?

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  • jruthaitken
    hello all this is a very quick query. continuing in my struggle to get Rigsby to take any oral medication - especially PLAVIX - I decided to crush the pill in
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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      hello all

      this is a very quick query.

      continuing in my struggle to get Rigsby to take any oral medication - especially PLAVIX - I decided to crush the pill in butter and put on his leg and mouth so he would lick this off. I then got worried about the potential harm from too much dairy product as he needs pills twice a day so switched to BENECOL which is a spread said to lower cholesterol. but now I am afriad of negative interactions with his medications of side effects. HAs anyone used this method to give pills?
      pill pockets etc are just not working and it is impossible to get a pill down his throat by hand. he has a clot in his heart so I am very very wary of stressing him in any way.
      all advice gratefully received
      thanks
      Ruth
    • Pat
      ... From: jruthaitken ... Benecol: INGREDIENTS: Sugar, Corn Syrup, (snip) Corn syrup is fructose which is the worst of sugars and
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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        Hi Ruth:

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "jruthaitken" <jruthaitken@...>
        >I then got worried about the potential harm from too much dairy product as
        >he needs pills twice a day so switched to BENECOL which is a >spread said
        >to lower cholesterol. but now I am afriad of negative interactions with his
        >medications of side effects. HAs anyone used this method >to give pills?
        Benecol:
        "INGREDIENTS: Sugar, Corn Syrup, "(snip)

        Corn syrup is fructose which is the worst of sugars and just now being
        revealed in papers to have a lot of detrimental effects when it comes to the
        heart fructose is an enemy:
        http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htm

        "Plant Stanol Esters, Nonfat Milk," (snip)

        Well the plant sterols, MAY be of benefit for the immune system.

        "less than 2% of Caramel Color, Soy Lecithin, Salt, Natural and
        Artificial Flavors, and Yellow 6."

        The color would be a concern, soy lecithin might reduce hairball action, and
        flavoring would be for humans, not cat oriented.

        We put all our pills in tasteless capsules as we don't want the boys chewing
        them and opening the capsules. Alternately we cover Pepper's heart meds in
        Fortiflora as he loves the stuff so eats his capsules like they are candy,
        heart meds and all.

        As for the pilling process, Legolas was capable of sending us to hospital
        needing stitches on our hands a number of times when we first took him in,
        but I have always had control over the pilling by putting him between my
        knees, sort of like the following video:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhj2O30sJWc&feature=related
        I use a syring of water such as is shown in the following video, but use it
        before starting the pill, to start the swallowing action, and again after
        the pill as a chaser. I didn't listen to this video but personally
        recommend that you squirt across the tongue so the cat has control of
        swallowing and doesn't choke:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kPiNTmIPts&NR=1

        Most of all I think is remembering that cats are wiley and can sense that
        you are nervous, so being very firm and passing on the message to the cat
        that "this is going to happen" makes a big difference. It always has done
        for us with new cats, easy or hard to pill. They need to get the message
        from the start that you have control and they have no options here.

        HTH.......Pat and all the boys
        http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
        http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
        http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
      • Mmayer11
        Definitely go with the *real* butter, if it s working...cats like dogs do not suffer from high cholesterol as humans do. I m sure your cardio vet would agree.
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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          Definitely go with the *real* butter, if it's working...cats like dogs do not suffer from high cholesterol as humans do. I'm sure your cardio vet would agree. Please don't use lowering cholesterol products for your cat or dog unless your cardo vet advises.



          Marianna




          -----Original Message-----
          From: jruthaitken <jruthaitken@...>
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 7:07 am
          Subject: [FH] use of cholesterol lowering spread in pill administration?




          hello all

          this is a very quick query.

          continuing in my struggle to get Rigsby to take any oral medication - especially PLAVIX - I decided to crush the pill in butter and put on his leg and mouth so he would lick this off. I then got worried about the potential harm from too much dairy product as he needs pills twice a day so switched to BENECOL which is a spread said to lower cholesterol. but now I am afriad of negative interactions with his medications of side effects. HAs anyone used this method to give pills?
          pill pockets etc are just not working and it is impossible to get a pill down his throat by hand. he has a clot in his heart so I am very very wary of stressing him in any way.
          all advice gratefully received
          thanks
          Ruth









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • elfinmyst@aol.com
          Hi Ruth Use the butter.. use anything that will work.. I would as getting the pill down is absolutely vital... Try chicken paste and tuna in oil? Lyn..
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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            Hi Ruth

            Use the butter.. use anything that will work.. I would as getting the pill
            down is absolutely vital... Try chicken paste and tuna in oil?

            Lyn..

            _www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Pat
            Hi Marianna; ... From: Mmayer11 ... Actually, cats do have cholesterol issues that are showing up a lot now that we have them altered and
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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              Hi Marianna;

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mmayer11" <mmayer11@...>
              > Definitely go with the *real* butter, if it's working...cats like dogs do
              > not suffer from high cholesterol as humans do.

              Actually, cats do have cholesterol issues that are showing up a lot now that
              we have them altered and kept as indoor cats:
              http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/cardiovascular/c_ct_hyperlipidemia
              In fact some studies done to further information on human cholesterol issues
              are done on cats, such as the following:
              http://www.springerlink.com/content/x537267p11341630/

              If you have been to one of Deb Zoran's more recent presentations she
              discusses fat content of the feline diet as a cause of most of the illnesses
              we are battling, which is why I worry far more about fat than carbs when
              feeding our boys. I know that there is a lot of hype on the net around Deb
              recommending "low carb" diets, but what I found when I actually paid to hear
              her was that she is NOT pushing low carb, but low FAT, with a lot of
              research behind what she is saying. We look for low calorie foods rather
              than low carb. Usually you will find that the result is finding "moderate"
              carbs rather than the much advertised "high carb" foods you see described on
              websites with agendas, and "moderate" carbohydrates are just fine if you
              aren't reading simple sugar ingredients on pet foods.

              It would be the fructose in the corn syrup that would worry me, but dairy
              products aren't feline appropriate, either. If a cat has a reaction to
              dairy it may sometimes not provide any outward indication as I know from my
              own casein intolerance. I get a lot of pain, but no other outward signs and
              can't imagine being a cat who can't communicate feelings of pain as well as
              I can. Both the butter and spread have their negative sides.

              Pat and all the boys
              http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
              http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
              http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
            • Pat
              So true, Lyn! ... From:
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                So true, Lyn!
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <elfinmyst@...>
                > Use the butter.. use anything that will work.. I would as getting the pill
                > down is absolutely vital... Try chicken paste and tuna in oil?
                >
                > Lyn..
              • Mmayer11
                Thanks, Pat. Did not know cats have an issue with cholesterol. One more thing to worry over. Dogs can have high cholesterol, but it does not indicate the same
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                  Thanks, Pat.
                  Did not know cats have an issue with cholesterol. One more thing to worry over.
                  Dogs can have high cholesterol, but it does not indicate the same problems humans have with the high count. In dogs it can be a warning sign of a number of other problems however... tick borne disease to name one, but vets are seldom plugged into that as of yet.



                  Marianna








                  Hi Marianna;

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mmayer11" <mmayer11@...>
                  > Definitely go with the *real* butter, if it's working...cats like dogs do
                  > not suffer from high cholesterol as humans do.

                  Actually, cats do have cholesterol issues that are showing up a lot now that
                  we have them altered and kept as indoor cats:
                  http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/cardiovascular/c_ct_hyperlipidemia
                  In fact some studies done to further information on human cholesterol issues
                  are done on cats, such as the following:
                  http://www.springerlink.com/content/x537267p11341630/







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Pat
                  Hi Marianna and All; For those who are interested, there are some good studies emerging out there on where cats get Vitamin D that would normally be
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                    Hi Marianna and All;

                    For those who are interested, there are some good studies emerging out there on where cats get Vitamin D that would normally be manufactured by sun on the skin transforming cholesterol in the body to Vitamin D in humans:

                    http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/129/4/903

                    I always ensure a certain amount of organ meat is provided each week in the diet to compensate for lack of mice in the diet. (-:

                    And, Marianna, you are very right in that sometimes veterinarians come across as if they know all, when they only have time to learn just so much about several species in the time they train. A dietitian needs another five years of specialized full course training, but vets sometimes act like they have this type of information under their belts based upon reading blurbs from pet food manufacturers. Not so good for our pets!

                    Pat and all the boys
                    http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                    http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                    http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mmayer11
                    To: Pat.Creighton@... ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 11:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [FH] use of cholesterol lowering spread in pill administration?


                    Thanks, Pat.
                    Did not know cats have an issue with cholesterol. One more thing to worry over.
                    Dogs can have high cholesterol, but it does not indicate the same problems humans have with the high count. In dogs it can be a warning sign of a number of other problems however... tick borne disease to name one, but vets are seldom plugged into that as of yet.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mmayer11
                    Yes, Pat. Thank you for that. Natural supplementing D ..as in D-3 is one I am ready to add to my cats ...multi cats...home prepared diet. I think 1000 for
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                      Yes, Pat.
                      Thank you for that. Natural supplementing D ..as in D-3 is one I am ready to add to my cats ...multi cats...home prepared diet. I think 1000 for starters per 3 days quantity for cats. But it should probably be more.
                      My senior rescue dog, 80 plus lbs, is getting 2000 daily...but he has health issues big time.



                      Marianna








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Pat
                      Hi Marianna and All; For cats, Vitamin D is most likely found in fish oils. We like to add a portion of Fancy Feast Salmon paté twice a week as a boost, too.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                        Hi Marianna and All;

                        For cats, Vitamin D is most likely found in fish oils. We like to add a portion of Fancy Feast Salmon paté twice a week as a boost, too. A deficiency in Vitamin D is a possible reason for heart health issues.

                        Pat and all the boys
                        http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                        http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                        http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Mmayer11
                        To: Pat.Creighton@... ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 3:26 PM
                        Subject: Re: [FH] use of cholesterol lowering spread in pill administration?


                        Yes, Pat.
                        Thank you for that. Natural supplementing D ..as in D-3 is one I am ready to add to my cats ...multi cats...home prepared diet. I think 1000 for starters per 3 days quantity for cats. But it should probably be more.
                        My senior rescue dog, 80 plus lbs, is getting 2000 daily...but he has health issues big time.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mmayer11
                        I agree, Pat. I would add that IMO the commercial companies as not keeping updated either. My home prepared diet includes WSO...but I think as I read newer
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                          I agree, Pat.
                          I would add that IMO the commercial companies as not keeping updated either.
                          My home prepared diet includes WSO...but I think as I read newer info that while Natural E needs to be included in order to best utilize WSO, Natural D still needs to be supplemented.
                          Are you prepare a home made recipe? If so, how much WSO...D...& E are you adding, if I may ask?



                          Marianna




                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Pat <Pat.Creighton@...>
                          To: Mmayer11 <mmayer11@...>; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 6:35 pm
                          Subject: Re: [FH] use of cholesterol lowering spread in pill administration?


                          Hi Marianna and All;

                          For cats, Vitamin D is most likely found in fish oils. We like to add a portion of Fancy Feast Salmon paté twice a week as a boost, too. A deficiency in Vitamin D is a possible reason for heart health issues.

                          Pat and all the boys
                          http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                          http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                          http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Pat
                          Hi Marianna; No we don t make our own. Our boys need frequent small meals so the staple food is a dry low calorie product and the Fancy Feast is treat time
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 29, 2010
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                            Hi Marianna;

                            No we don't make our own. Our boys need frequent small meals so the staple food is a dry low calorie product and the Fancy Feast is treat time when meds, supplements, and shots are given.

                            Pat and all the boys
                            http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                            http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                            http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Mmayer11

                            Are you prepare a home made recipe? If so, how much WSO...D...& E are you adding, if I may ask?

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • JudithG
                            Stay with the butter. Hey, use chicken fat if that works. Cats don t live long enough to get hardening of the arteries. The only worry about cholesterol is if
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 30, 2010
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                              Stay with the butter. Hey, use chicken fat if that works.

                              Cats don't live long enough to get hardening of the arteries. The only worry about cholesterol is if it keeps going up. That from my vet cardiologist.

                              Judith
                            • Pat
                              Hi Judith and All; ... From: JudithG ... While I don t disagree with the use of butter if that is what an owner wishes to choose, I
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 30, 2010
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                                Hi Judith and All;

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "JudithG" <goldbe50@...>
                                > Cats don't live long enough to get hardening of the arteries. The only
                                > worry about cholesterol is if it keeps going up. That from my vet
                                > cardiologist.

                                While I don't disagree with the use of butter if that is what an owner
                                wishes to choose, I don't agree with your vet cardiologist based upon
                                studies like the following:

                                http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=84231
                                "Thus, we produced atherosclerotic lesions in the cat within 2 to 4 months
                                on a cholesterol-enriched diet; blood lipid levels were highly correlated
                                with lesional measurements in the vessel wall. This study will provide the
                                basis for evaluation of the susceptibility of New Zealand lipoprotein
                                lipase-deficient cats to diet-induced atherosclerosis."

                                That is with a 30% fat content diet which is often low if owners are
                                avoiding carbohydrates, which is the latest fad, and it happens within 4
                                months.

                                Atherosclerosis can only be detected by CT angiograms, and other similar
                                testing requiring specialized equipment depending upon the area of the body
                                being scanned. Probably most pet owners don't want to spend money on them,
                                and possibly also don't pay for necropsies very often, so perhaps your
                                cardiologist is basing his information on what his owners select in the way
                                of testing? I am not understanding why he would make a blanket statement
                                that isn't really very accurate.

                                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7740743
                                "Autopsy revealed massive atherosclerotic changes in the large abdominal
                                vessels, the wall of the aorta, and the coronary vessels." That is the
                                classic definition of "hardening of the arteries".

                                As this is a heart list, I feel it is an important topic to explore. I
                                have, in the past, seen cat owners describing the results of high fat diets
                                on the heart muscle although I realize that a radiograph will not detect
                                much more than an enlarged heart muscle. This will make the diagnosis HCM
                                when there may be more to the story.

                                Personally I don't think atherosclerosis should be brushed off on a feline
                                heart list, but then that is just my personal opinion based upon papers I
                                have read, testing done on myself to eliminate the possibility, and the fact
                                that at the moment I am waiting for DH to get back from out of town surgery
                                on a heart that has an inoperable atherosclerosis blockage on the heart that
                                doesn't show up without internal investigation.

                                Pat and all the boys
                                http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                                http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                                http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                              • C.R.
                                I do agree with Pat that a consistent diet rich in high fats is very bad for cats, not only from a heart standpoint, but it can also wreak havoc with a cat s
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 30, 2010
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                                  I do agree with Pat that a consistent diet rich in high fats is very bad for cats, not only from a heart standpoint, but it can also wreak havoc with a cat's pancreas. Pancreatitis is all too prevalent in our kitties. Snowball had awful pancreatitis for 3 years and had to be on a low fat diet for that.

                                  Having said that, I think the amount of butter or whatever you use to get a kitty to take a pill daily, I don't think would be enough to alter their organ functions. I think we're talking just tiny bits here, right? Most of the studies done were done with cats having quite a lot of fat in the diets.

                                  It's always a challenge to give kitties pills, if they're not cooperative. I think any way we can get the medication into them, is what we have to do. If folks are worried about the fat content in something, not only butter, but cheese and nut butters (I've heard some people use peanut butter and almond butter to give the pills), then I think exploring what the compounding pharmacies have to offer would be a good idea. The animelts from Dr. Foster and Smith sound really good. I wish I had known about them when Snowball was here. She was very easy to pill, but it would have been nice to not have to pill if we didn't have to.

                                  Thanks, Pat, for the information about the studies. I do think it's very important for everyone to be informed and know what the consequences could be.


                                  Carol and Angel Snowball *5/10/91 to 1/1/10*

                                  http://carolandsteveskitties.shutterfly.com/
                                  Snowball in the planter box.
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o6bLwo5jPE
                                  Snowball in the garden
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxKQH2mM-d0
                                • JudithG
                                  Thanks for the links. I m going to pass them over to my regular vet who never seems concerned about high cholesterol scores in cats. Last trip to the vet
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 1 10:32 AM
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                                    Thanks for the links. I'm going to pass them over to my regular vet who never seems concerned about high cholesterol scores in cats.

                                    Last trip to the vet cardiologist, I was told to not come back as it appears that Ruby outgrew her heart murmur. I once again wished him, "may our future meetings be social only."

                                    Being a nervous mummy, I'm still here.

                                    Judith
                                  • Pat
                                    Hi Judith; ... From: JudithG ... With Hamlet we find that veterinarians can only hear his murmur on occasion, which is normal with this
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 1 11:28 AM
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                                      Hi Judith;

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "JudithG" <goldbe50@...>

                                      > Last trip to the vet cardiologist, I was told to not come back as it
                                      > appears that Ruby outgrew her heart murmur. I once again wished him, "may
                                      > >our future meetings be social only."
                                      >
                                      > Being a nervous mummy, I'm still here.

                                      With Hamlet we find that veterinarians can only hear his murmur on occasion,
                                      which is normal with this type of murmur. What I have learned from DH's
                                      adventures with heart monitors, etc., is that even when a monitor is
                                      attached to your body for 24 hours, there is a good chance that nothing will
                                      show on the monitor, even when there are serious enough problems that
                                      surgery needs to be done. Then, when they put one on me for elimination
                                      purposes, (not supposed to show anything), the monitor DID show AF.
                                      Cardiology is still limited in the tools available, partly because we can't
                                      be attached to monitors 24/7, or alternately the specialty machines are too
                                      expensive, especially for veterinary practices.

                                      So -- don't be surprised if another vet down the road who is doing just a
                                      physical or quick check detects the murmur again. We just found that with
                                      low fat foods Hamlet's murmur seems to be less noticeable and we go through
                                      many checks for him where the vet detects nothing. This has been going on
                                      for years, and he is now 19 years old, so the murmur isn't something to
                                      worry about if you do what you can to keep cardio exercise going, and fat
                                      and sodium content down as much as you can reasonably do.

                                      While I am not on this list for Hamlet, I too will probably stay once
                                      Pepper's defect has caught up with him.

                                      Pat and all the boys
                                      http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                                      http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
                                      http://eliminationdietforpets.blogspot.com/
                                    • JudithG
                                      Ruby belongs to the, heart murmur showed up only when she was agitated type of cat. Her first echo, it took a while to show. This one wasn t with the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 2 12:32 PM
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                                        Ruby belongs to the, heart murmur showed up only when she was agitated type of cat. Her first echo, it took a while to show. This one wasn't with the cardiologist.

                                        She was plenty agitated at the cardiologist and he used his agitate techinique, holding the cat up. Ruby scratched him and had her paws taped. Ruby never scratches (she bites). She's a small cat and it took work to hold her down as she went into her squirm like an eel mode. Getting squirted with the gel didn't help either.

                                        She's a very active cat, great one for zipping around, so I'm not worred about her keeping in shape. I think her diet is good and she doesn't seem to get fat. As she has gingivitis, she sees my regular vet far too often and he always checks her heart.

                                        I also brought my angels aunt, Rosalynde for an echo, as many of her relatives have HCM. Holding her up, no reaction. Squirt with gel, no reaction. One relaxed kitty. Heart is fine. Vets adore Rosalynde as she's a great patient.

                                        Judith
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