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RE: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
    can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not sleeping curled up but pum will sleep curled up for hours without moving...even
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 6 1:03 AM
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      can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
      sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
      moving...even now.

      linda

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

      > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
      can
      > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
      >
      > linda
      >

      I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
      when
      I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
      with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
      24hrs
      without the stress of an ER visit.

      A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
      and
      heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
      it
      is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

      Anyes




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    • Mike & Linda Irrgang
      pum hasn t been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked for blockage and there is none....he s not drinking enough water either....he s
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 6 1:06 AM
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        pum hasn't been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked
        for blockage and there is none....he's not drinking enough water
        either....he's eating ok but not drinking....doesn't this sound like a
        kidney problem??? he's not dehydrated.....yet....but in this heat he'll be
        so soon if he doesn't drink more water....this is terrible, terrible,
        terrible.

        linda

        -----Original Message-----
        From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:43 PM
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


        It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
        and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

        Victoria


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      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
        i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he s always been a big drinker and these past 2 days he s been hardly drinking at all....i can tell he s lost
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 6 1:12 AM
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          i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he's always been a big
          drinker and these past 2 days he's been hardly drinking at all....i can tell
          he's lost some weight too....

          linda

          -----Original Message-----
          From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:46 PM
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


          Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
          have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
          running.

          Victoria


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        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
          where do you get dandelion? ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 6 1:13 AM
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            where do you get dandelion?

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

            > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
            can
            > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
            >
            > linda
            >

            I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
            when
            I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
            with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
            24hrs
            without the stress of an ER visit.

            A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
            and
            heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
            it
            is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

            Anyes




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          • Anyes Moscrip
            ... Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 6 8:18 PM
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              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

              > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
              > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
              > moving...even now.
              >

              Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
              belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
              squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids push
              against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as bellows,
              drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart with
              stethoscope.

              2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and a
              stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
              gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is like
              so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

              I hope this helps,
              Anyes and the girls
            • Anyes Moscrip
              ... I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 6 8:19 PM
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                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                > where do you get dandelion?
                >

                I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps and
                gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid build
                up.

                I hope this helps,
                Anyes
              • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                Dear Everyone and Anynes, Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid buildup Pum : -lies on his back -sleep curled up for long
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 7 5:09 AM
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                  Dear Everyone and Anynes,

                  Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                  buildup

                  Pum :

                  -lies on his back
                  -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                  -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                  as possible
                  -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                  we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                  -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                  -"wheezes" at inhalation
                  -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                  already in the middle of a meow

                  Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....


                  We are grateful for all input.....


                  Purrs,
                  Linda and Pum



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:18 PM
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                  Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                  > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                  > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                  > moving...even now.
                  >

                  Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                  belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                  squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids
                  push
                  against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as
                  bellows,
                  drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart
                  with
                  stethoscope.

                  2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and
                  a
                  stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                  gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is
                  like
                  so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                  I hope this helps,
                  Anyes and the girls




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                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                  can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps (pum hates pills)? how do you know which potency to buy?? how much do you put in
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 7 5:09 AM
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                    can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                    (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                    put in each gelcap?

                    Linda

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:20 PM
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                    Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                    > where do you get dandelion?
                    >

                    I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                    liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                    and
                    gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid
                    build
                    up.

                    I hope this helps,
                    Anyes




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                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                  • Anyes Moscrip
                    ... I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 7 3:50 PM
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                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                      > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                      >
                      > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                      > buildup
                      >
                      > Pum :
                      >
                      > -lies on his back
                      > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                      > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                      > as possible
                      > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                      > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                      > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                      > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                      > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                      > already in the middle of a meow
                      >
                      > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                      >
                      > We are grateful for all input.....

                      I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                      will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                      attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he had
                      fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front legs
                      and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure, and
                      not just occasionally.

                      The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or asthma.
                      Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                      Anyes
                    • Anyes Moscrip
                      ... I don t see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 7 4:22 PM
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                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                        > can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                        > (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                        > put in each gelcap?
                        >
                        > Linda
                        >

                        I don't see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not
                        tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste if
                        that's the case. It does not take much. I just filled the size 3 gelcap with
                        it.

                        Anyes
                      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                        yes, he s mildly asthmatic... ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 10 1:05 PM
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                          yes, he's mildly asthmatic...

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                          Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                          > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                          >
                          > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                          > buildup
                          >
                          > Pum :
                          >
                          > -lies on his back
                          > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                          > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as
                          little
                          > as possible
                          > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this
                          until
                          > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                          > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                          > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                          > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                          > already in the middle of a meow
                          >
                          > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                          >
                          > We are grateful for all input.....

                          I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                          will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                          attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he
                          had
                          fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front
                          legs
                          and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure,
                          and
                          not just occasionally.

                          The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or
                          asthma.
                          Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                          Anyes




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                        • mukki2@yahoo.com
                          Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental cleaning). I ve been quite
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 20 10:45 AM
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                            Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in
                            January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental
                            cleaning). I've been quite attentive to him, adjusting the
                            medications after doing research (which I know you aren't supposed to
                            do). This downhill spiral started after we left him to go to LV for a
                            weekend in late July. He gurgled after that and then I went to Palm
                            Springs last weekend and he's much worse now (although I seem to have
                            stabilized him). I think he gets stressed when we leave him even
                            though he has someone who comes over to feed him and give him meds.
                            He's very tired but still shows signs of happiness. I might try the
                            Dandelion or ask the vet about injectable lasix. Unfortunately, I
                            don't think my vets are very experimental or at least don't have a
                            wide range of experience.

                            --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                            > i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and
                            today the
                            > vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know
                            it's hard
                            > to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the
                            mirror image
                            > of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what
                            does your
                            > vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old
                            is he?
                            >
                            > linda
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: mukki2@y... [mailto:mukki2@y...]
                            > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
                            > To: feline-heart@y...
                            > Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                            >
                            >
                            > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                            long
                            > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                            > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                            lot
                            > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                            legs,
                            > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                            > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
                            > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                            > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                            > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                            > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                            > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                            > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                            > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                            > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                            >
                            > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                            > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                            > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                            > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                            > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                            > unpleasantly large pill.
                            >
                            > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                            > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
                            > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                            > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                            > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                            > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                            > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                            know
                            > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                            > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • mukki2@yahoo.com
                            My cat still sleeps curled up, although it s true that when he previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the fact that he sleeps curled up
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 20 12:06 PM
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                              My cat still sleeps curled up, although it's true that when he
                              previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the
                              fact that he sleeps curled up makes me think that he can't be feeling
                              too bad since it should be uncomfortable with fluid in the lungs;
                              maybe he had just gotten used to the discomfort, however.

                              One definite sign in my cat is that he makes a gurgling sound when he
                              purrs. As someone else noted, you can also see his sides being sucked
                              (below the ribs) in and out when he breathes (there is a medical term
                              for this, but I've forgotten it). He also will not stay on his back
                              for a prolonged period. For instance, he likes to roll in the dirt.
                              With fluid buildup, however, he immediately rights himself back up
                              after rolling onto his back. He also tends to rest in non-standing
                              position. For instance, when waiting for me to feed him, he no longer
                              sits on his haunches. Rather, he rests with his front legs bent so
                              that he is almost in a laying-down position. He also sleeps a lot
                              more.



                              --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                              > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them
                              was not
                              > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                              > moving...even now.
                              >
                              > linda
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@i...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                              > To: feline-heart@y...
                              > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:
                              >
                              > > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a
                              problem? how
                              > can
                              > > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                              > >
                              > > linda
                              > >
                              >
                              > I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped
                              the dose
                              > when
                              > I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath...
                              breathing
                              > with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed
                              within
                              > 24hrs
                              > without the stress of an ER visit.
                              >
                              > A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the
                              lungs
                              > and
                              > heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is
                              prone to it,
                              > it
                              > is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are
                              there.
                              >
                              > Anyes
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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