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RE: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
    the vet took a blood sample to check pum s kidney profile today ...his temp was fine...i ll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn t dehyddrated but
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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      the vet took a blood sample to check pum's kidney profile today ...his temp
      was fine...i'll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn't
      dehyddrated but she said his lungs sound very congested....he's very
      lethargic and yesterdeay ate hardly nothing and didn't drink much...he only
      urinated once tuesday .....i will check his urine again in the am.m and try
      to collect a urine specimen overnite tonite. this is all so terribly
      depressing....and the heat is driving me crazy.....i hope i'm doing the
      right things.

      linda

      -----Original Message-----
      From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:04 AM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


      Hi!

      I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to
      make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to
      how much we want to put our cats through to try and prolong their
      lives. Some here have gone the whole 9 yards to try and do everything
      possible and I applaud their stamina. I have a different view as to
      how I am handling Doms HCM, asthma and allergies. We decided 6 months
      ago to go with quality of life for him rather than the quantity. Dom
      has still not needed anything for fluid build up so I can be of no
      help there but others will have lots of suggestions. I can say this
      now because Doms time isn't here today but my DH and I have decided
      to do what you mentioned. When his health gets to a rapid decline, we
      just won't put him through all of the procedures to try and give him
      a little time. Dom is a very sensitive cat both physically and
      mentally. He throws himself into an asthma attack if we even take him
      out to the vets. So, they will come here from now on if he needs
      them. Doms vet, Brian, is heaven sent to me because he helped us
      reach this decision and is now there to help us get to that point. If
      you have a vet you are comfortable with, maybe talking to them would
      help. Brian understands what we want and has been told if I am
      hanging on and Dom is having "any" real problems to please "hit me
      over the head" (not literally! LOL) to see it. I know when the time
      comes, I may not be as willing to back off as I can say on paper so I
      am counting on him to be the voice of reason in this. I do know when
      Doms health declines even more, I will be keeping him alive because I
      don't want to loose him for my benefit not Doms and I don't want that
      to happen. As long as Doms quality of life is good (as it is now) we
      will muddle along and Brian tells me he is already on his second set
      of nine lives as he should not be with us today but he is curled up
      beside the computer as I type this purring away so whatever is
      working for him. I think Smer will let you know when he is really
      failing and you will not want to watch it from what you have said. I
      know it is not going to be easy and I hope that I have the strength
      to do it when I must! The underlying thought for us is that Dom has
      an uncurable, fatal condition and we will let him go to keep him from
      any pain or procedures that will not cure him anyway.

      Good luck in your decision,
      Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


      --- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
      > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
      long
      > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
      > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
      lot
      > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
      legs,
      > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
      > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and
      25mg
      > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
      > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
      > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
      > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
      > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
      > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
      > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
      > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
      >
      > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
      > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
      > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
      > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will
      not
      > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
      > unpleasantly large pill.
      >
      > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
      > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF
      (and
      > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
      > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
      > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
      > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
      > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
      know
      > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
      > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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    • VHess2000@cs.com
      It s not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed, and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues. Victoria
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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        It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
        and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

        Victoria
      • VHess2000@cs.com
        Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don t have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan running.
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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          Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
          have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
          running.

          Victoria
        • Anyes Moscrip
          ... I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the flank breath...
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

            > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
            > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
            >
            > linda
            >

            I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when
            I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
            with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within 24hrs
            without the stress of an ER visit.

            A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs and
            heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it, it
            is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

            Anyes
          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
            can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not sleeping curled up but pum will sleep curled up for hours without moving...even
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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              can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
              sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
              moving...even now.

              linda

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

              > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
              can
              > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
              >
              > linda
              >

              I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
              when
              I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
              with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
              24hrs
              without the stress of an ER visit.

              A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
              and
              heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
              it
              is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

              Anyes




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            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
              pum hasn t been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked for blockage and there is none....he s not drinking enough water either....he s
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                pum hasn't been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked
                for blockage and there is none....he's not drinking enough water
                either....he's eating ok but not drinking....doesn't this sound like a
                kidney problem??? he's not dehydrated.....yet....but in this heat he'll be
                so soon if he doesn't drink more water....this is terrible, terrible,
                terrible.

                linda

                -----Original Message-----
                From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:43 PM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


                It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                Victoria


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              • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he s always been a big drinker and these past 2 days he s been hardly drinking at all....i can tell he s lost
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                  i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he's always been a big
                  drinker and these past 2 days he's been hardly drinking at all....i can tell
                  he's lost some weight too....

                  linda

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:46 PM
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                  Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                  have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                  running.

                  Victoria


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                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                  where do you get dandelion? ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                    where do you get dandelion?

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                    Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                    > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                    can
                    > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                    >
                    > linda
                    >

                    I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                    when
                    I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                    with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                    24hrs
                    without the stress of an ER visit.

                    A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                    and
                    heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                    it
                    is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                    Anyes




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                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                  • Anyes Moscrip
                    ... Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                      > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                      > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                      > moving...even now.
                      >

                      Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                      belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                      squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids push
                      against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as bellows,
                      drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart with
                      stethoscope.

                      2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and a
                      stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                      gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is like
                      so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                      I hope this helps,
                      Anyes and the girls
                    • Anyes Moscrip
                      ... I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                        > where do you get dandelion?
                        >

                        I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                        liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps and
                        gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid build
                        up.

                        I hope this helps,
                        Anyes
                      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                        Dear Everyone and Anynes, Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid buildup Pum : -lies on his back -sleep curled up for long
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                          Dear Everyone and Anynes,

                          Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                          buildup

                          Pum :

                          -lies on his back
                          -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                          -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                          as possible
                          -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                          we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                          -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                          -"wheezes" at inhalation
                          -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                          already in the middle of a meow

                          Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....


                          We are grateful for all input.....


                          Purrs,
                          Linda and Pum



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:18 PM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                          > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                          > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                          > moving...even now.
                          >

                          Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                          belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                          squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids
                          push
                          against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as
                          bellows,
                          drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart
                          with
                          stethoscope.

                          2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and
                          a
                          stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                          gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is
                          like
                          so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                          I hope this helps,
                          Anyes and the girls




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                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                          can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps (pum hates pills)? how do you know which potency to buy?? how much do you put in
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                            can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                            (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                            put in each gelcap?

                            Linda

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:20 PM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                            > where do you get dandelion?
                            >

                            I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                            liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                            and
                            gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid
                            build
                            up.

                            I hope this helps,
                            Anyes




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                          • Anyes Moscrip
                            ... I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                              > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                              >
                              > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                              > buildup
                              >
                              > Pum :
                              >
                              > -lies on his back
                              > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                              > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                              > as possible
                              > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                              > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                              > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                              > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                              > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                              > already in the middle of a meow
                              >
                              > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                              >
                              > We are grateful for all input.....

                              I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                              will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                              attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he had
                              fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front legs
                              and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure, and
                              not just occasionally.

                              The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or asthma.
                              Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                              Anyes
                            • Anyes Moscrip
                              ... I don t see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                > can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                > (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                > put in each gelcap?
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >

                                I don't see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not
                                tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste if
                                that's the case. It does not take much. I just filled the size 3 gelcap with
                                it.

                                Anyes
                              • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                yes, he s mildly asthmatic... ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 10, 2001
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                                  yes, he's mildly asthmatic...

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM
                                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                  Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                  > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                  >
                                  > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                  > buildup
                                  >
                                  > Pum :
                                  >
                                  > -lies on his back
                                  > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                  > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as
                                  little
                                  > as possible
                                  > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this
                                  until
                                  > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                  > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                  > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                  > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                  > already in the middle of a meow
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                  >
                                  > We are grateful for all input.....

                                  I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                  will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                  attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he
                                  had
                                  fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front
                                  legs
                                  and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure,
                                  and
                                  not just occasionally.

                                  The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or
                                  asthma.
                                  Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                  Anyes




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                                • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                  Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental cleaning). I ve been quite
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
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                                    Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in
                                    January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental
                                    cleaning). I've been quite attentive to him, adjusting the
                                    medications after doing research (which I know you aren't supposed to
                                    do). This downhill spiral started after we left him to go to LV for a
                                    weekend in late July. He gurgled after that and then I went to Palm
                                    Springs last weekend and he's much worse now (although I seem to have
                                    stabilized him). I think he gets stressed when we leave him even
                                    though he has someone who comes over to feed him and give him meds.
                                    He's very tired but still shows signs of happiness. I might try the
                                    Dandelion or ask the vet about injectable lasix. Unfortunately, I
                                    don't think my vets are very experimental or at least don't have a
                                    wide range of experience.

                                    --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                    > i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and
                                    today the
                                    > vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know
                                    it's hard
                                    > to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the
                                    mirror image
                                    > of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what
                                    does your
                                    > vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old
                                    is he?
                                    >
                                    > linda
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: mukki2@y... [mailto:mukki2@y...]
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
                                    > To: feline-heart@y...
                                    > Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                                    long
                                    > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                                    > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                                    lot
                                    > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                                    legs,
                                    > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                                    > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
                                    > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                                    > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                                    > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                                    > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                                    > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                                    > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                                    > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                                    > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                                    >
                                    > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                                    > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                                    > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                                    > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                                    > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                                    > unpleasantly large pill.
                                    >
                                    > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                                    > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
                                    > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                                    > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                                    > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                                    > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                                    > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                                    know
                                    > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                                    > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                    My cat still sleeps curled up, although it s true that when he previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the fact that he sleeps curled up
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
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                                      My cat still sleeps curled up, although it's true that when he
                                      previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the
                                      fact that he sleeps curled up makes me think that he can't be feeling
                                      too bad since it should be uncomfortable with fluid in the lungs;
                                      maybe he had just gotten used to the discomfort, however.

                                      One definite sign in my cat is that he makes a gurgling sound when he
                                      purrs. As someone else noted, you can also see his sides being sucked
                                      (below the ribs) in and out when he breathes (there is a medical term
                                      for this, but I've forgotten it). He also will not stay on his back
                                      for a prolonged period. For instance, he likes to roll in the dirt.
                                      With fluid buildup, however, he immediately rights himself back up
                                      after rolling onto his back. He also tends to rest in non-standing
                                      position. For instance, when waiting for me to feed him, he no longer
                                      sits on his haunches. Rather, he rests with his front legs bent so
                                      that he is almost in a laying-down position. He also sleeps a lot
                                      more.



                                      --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                      > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them
                                      was not
                                      > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                      > moving...even now.
                                      >
                                      > linda
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@i...]
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                                      > To: feline-heart@y...
                                      > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a
                                      problem? how
                                      > can
                                      > > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                                      > >
                                      > > linda
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped
                                      the dose
                                      > when
                                      > I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath...
                                      breathing
                                      > with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed
                                      within
                                      > 24hrs
                                      > without the stress of an ER visit.
                                      >
                                      > A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the
                                      lungs
                                      > and
                                      > heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is
                                      prone to it,
                                      > it
                                      > is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are
                                      there.
                                      >
                                      > Anyes
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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