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RE: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
    do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it? linda ... From: Anyes
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
      do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
      you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?

      linda

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 9:38 PM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




      mukki2@... wrote:

      > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
      > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
      > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
      > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
      > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
      > unpleasantly large pill.
      >

      We used Dandelion extract for 6 months and Spironolactone for 1 month. Have
      you tried either one of those?
      Dandelion worked great. I gave 2 gelcaps/day and up to 4 gelcaps when there
      was a problem with fluid build up. The last month, we added the other
      diuretic to the routine. My kitty had also had lasix in the ER for several
      days along wiht the gel type diuretic. The lasix took several days of
      repeated doses to work so we did not use it at home after that. We used
      the
      Dandelion instead.

      I hope this helps,
      Anyes




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    • Mike & Linda Irrgang
      the vet took a blood sample to check pum s kidney profile today ...his temp was fine...i ll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn t dehyddrated but
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
        the vet took a blood sample to check pum's kidney profile today ...his temp
        was fine...i'll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn't
        dehyddrated but she said his lungs sound very congested....he's very
        lethargic and yesterdeay ate hardly nothing and didn't drink much...he only
        urinated once tuesday .....i will check his urine again in the am.m and try
        to collect a urine specimen overnite tonite. this is all so terribly
        depressing....and the heat is driving me crazy.....i hope i'm doing the
        right things.

        linda

        -----Original Message-----
        From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:04 AM
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


        Hi!

        I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to
        make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to
        how much we want to put our cats through to try and prolong their
        lives. Some here have gone the whole 9 yards to try and do everything
        possible and I applaud their stamina. I have a different view as to
        how I am handling Doms HCM, asthma and allergies. We decided 6 months
        ago to go with quality of life for him rather than the quantity. Dom
        has still not needed anything for fluid build up so I can be of no
        help there but others will have lots of suggestions. I can say this
        now because Doms time isn't here today but my DH and I have decided
        to do what you mentioned. When his health gets to a rapid decline, we
        just won't put him through all of the procedures to try and give him
        a little time. Dom is a very sensitive cat both physically and
        mentally. He throws himself into an asthma attack if we even take him
        out to the vets. So, they will come here from now on if he needs
        them. Doms vet, Brian, is heaven sent to me because he helped us
        reach this decision and is now there to help us get to that point. If
        you have a vet you are comfortable with, maybe talking to them would
        help. Brian understands what we want and has been told if I am
        hanging on and Dom is having "any" real problems to please "hit me
        over the head" (not literally! LOL) to see it. I know when the time
        comes, I may not be as willing to back off as I can say on paper so I
        am counting on him to be the voice of reason in this. I do know when
        Doms health declines even more, I will be keeping him alive because I
        don't want to loose him for my benefit not Doms and I don't want that
        to happen. As long as Doms quality of life is good (as it is now) we
        will muddle along and Brian tells me he is already on his second set
        of nine lives as he should not be with us today but he is curled up
        beside the computer as I type this purring away so whatever is
        working for him. I think Smer will let you know when he is really
        failing and you will not want to watch it from what you have said. I
        know it is not going to be easy and I hope that I have the strength
        to do it when I must! The underlying thought for us is that Dom has
        an uncurable, fatal condition and we will let him go to keep him from
        any pain or procedures that will not cure him anyway.

        Good luck in your decision,
        Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


        --- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
        > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
        long
        > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
        > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
        lot
        > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
        legs,
        > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
        > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and
        25mg
        > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
        > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
        > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
        > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
        > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
        > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
        > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
        > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
        >
        > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
        > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
        > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
        > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will
        not
        > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
        > unpleasantly large pill.
        >
        > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
        > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF
        (and
        > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
        > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
        > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
        > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
        > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
        know
        > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
        > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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      • VHess2000@cs.com
        It s not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed, and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues. Victoria
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
          It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
          and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

          Victoria
        • VHess2000@cs.com
          Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don t have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan running.
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
            Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
            have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
            running.

            Victoria
          • Anyes Moscrip
            ... I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the flank breath...
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

              > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
              > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
              >
              > linda
              >

              I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when
              I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
              with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within 24hrs
              without the stress of an ER visit.

              A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs and
              heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it, it
              is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

              Anyes
            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
              can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not sleeping curled up but pum will sleep curled up for hours without moving...even
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                moving...even now.

                linda

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                can
                > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                >
                > linda
                >

                I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                when
                I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                24hrs
                without the stress of an ER visit.

                A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                and
                heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                it
                is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                Anyes




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              • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                pum hasn t been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked for blockage and there is none....he s not drinking enough water either....he s
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                  pum hasn't been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked
                  for blockage and there is none....he's not drinking enough water
                  either....he's eating ok but not drinking....doesn't this sound like a
                  kidney problem??? he's not dehydrated.....yet....but in this heat he'll be
                  so soon if he doesn't drink more water....this is terrible, terrible,
                  terrible.

                  linda

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:43 PM
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


                  It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                  and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                  Victoria


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                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                  i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he s always been a big drinker and these past 2 days he s been hardly drinking at all....i can tell he s lost
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                    i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he's always been a big
                    drinker and these past 2 days he's been hardly drinking at all....i can tell
                    he's lost some weight too....

                    linda

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:46 PM
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                    Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                    have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                    running.

                    Victoria


                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                    where do you get dandelion? ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                      where do you get dandelion?

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                      > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                      can
                      > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                      >
                      > linda
                      >

                      I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                      when
                      I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                      with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                      24hrs
                      without the stress of an ER visit.

                      A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                      and
                      heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                      it
                      is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                      Anyes




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                      feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                    • Anyes Moscrip
                      ... Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                        > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                        > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                        > moving...even now.
                        >

                        Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                        belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                        squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids push
                        against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as bellows,
                        drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart with
                        stethoscope.

                        2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and a
                        stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                        gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is like
                        so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                        I hope this helps,
                        Anyes and the girls
                      • Anyes Moscrip
                        ... I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                          > where do you get dandelion?
                          >

                          I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                          liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps and
                          gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid build
                          up.

                          I hope this helps,
                          Anyes
                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                          Dear Everyone and Anynes, Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid buildup Pum : -lies on his back -sleep curled up for long
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                            Dear Everyone and Anynes,

                            Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                            buildup

                            Pum :

                            -lies on his back
                            -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                            -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                            as possible
                            -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                            we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                            -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                            -"wheezes" at inhalation
                            -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                            already in the middle of a meow

                            Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....


                            We are grateful for all input.....


                            Purrs,
                            Linda and Pum



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:18 PM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                            > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                            > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                            > moving...even now.
                            >

                            Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                            belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                            squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids
                            push
                            against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as
                            bellows,
                            drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart
                            with
                            stethoscope.

                            2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and
                            a
                            stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                            gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is
                            like
                            so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                            I hope this helps,
                            Anyes and the girls




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                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                            can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps (pum hates pills)? how do you know which potency to buy?? how much do you put in
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                              can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                              (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                              put in each gelcap?

                              Linda

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:20 PM
                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                              > where do you get dandelion?
                              >

                              I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                              liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                              and
                              gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid
                              build
                              up.

                              I hope this helps,
                              Anyes




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                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                            • Anyes Moscrip
                              ... I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                >
                                > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                > buildup
                                >
                                > Pum :
                                >
                                > -lies on his back
                                > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                                > as possible
                                > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                                > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                > already in the middle of a meow
                                >
                                > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                >
                                > We are grateful for all input.....

                                I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he had
                                fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front legs
                                and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure, and
                                not just occasionally.

                                The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or asthma.
                                Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                Anyes
                              • Anyes Moscrip
                                ... I don t see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                  Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                  > can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                  > (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                  > put in each gelcap?
                                  >
                                  > Linda
                                  >

                                  I don't see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not
                                  tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste if
                                  that's the case. It does not take much. I just filled the size 3 gelcap with
                                  it.

                                  Anyes
                                • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                  yes, he s mildly asthmatic... ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 10, 2001
                                    yes, he's mildly asthmatic...

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM
                                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                    Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                    > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                    >
                                    > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                    > buildup
                                    >
                                    > Pum :
                                    >
                                    > -lies on his back
                                    > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                    > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as
                                    little
                                    > as possible
                                    > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this
                                    until
                                    > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                    > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                    > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                    > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                    > already in the middle of a meow
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                    >
                                    > We are grateful for all input.....

                                    I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                    will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                    attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he
                                    had
                                    fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front
                                    legs
                                    and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure,
                                    and
                                    not just occasionally.

                                    The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or
                                    asthma.
                                    Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                    Anyes




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                                  • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                    Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental cleaning). I ve been quite
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
                                      Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in
                                      January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental
                                      cleaning). I've been quite attentive to him, adjusting the
                                      medications after doing research (which I know you aren't supposed to
                                      do). This downhill spiral started after we left him to go to LV for a
                                      weekend in late July. He gurgled after that and then I went to Palm
                                      Springs last weekend and he's much worse now (although I seem to have
                                      stabilized him). I think he gets stressed when we leave him even
                                      though he has someone who comes over to feed him and give him meds.
                                      He's very tired but still shows signs of happiness. I might try the
                                      Dandelion or ask the vet about injectable lasix. Unfortunately, I
                                      don't think my vets are very experimental or at least don't have a
                                      wide range of experience.

                                      --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                      > i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and
                                      today the
                                      > vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know
                                      it's hard
                                      > to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the
                                      mirror image
                                      > of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what
                                      does your
                                      > vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old
                                      is he?
                                      >
                                      > linda
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: mukki2@y... [mailto:mukki2@y...]
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
                                      > To: feline-heart@y...
                                      > Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                                      long
                                      > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                                      > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                                      lot
                                      > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                                      legs,
                                      > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                                      > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
                                      > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                                      > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                                      > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                                      > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                                      > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                                      > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                                      > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                                      > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                                      >
                                      > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                                      > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                                      > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                                      > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                                      > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                                      > unpleasantly large pill.
                                      >
                                      > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                                      > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
                                      > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                                      > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                                      > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                                      > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                                      > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                                      know
                                      > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                                      > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                      My cat still sleeps curled up, although it s true that when he previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the fact that he sleeps curled up
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
                                        My cat still sleeps curled up, although it's true that when he
                                        previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the
                                        fact that he sleeps curled up makes me think that he can't be feeling
                                        too bad since it should be uncomfortable with fluid in the lungs;
                                        maybe he had just gotten used to the discomfort, however.

                                        One definite sign in my cat is that he makes a gurgling sound when he
                                        purrs. As someone else noted, you can also see his sides being sucked
                                        (below the ribs) in and out when he breathes (there is a medical term
                                        for this, but I've forgotten it). He also will not stay on his back
                                        for a prolonged period. For instance, he likes to roll in the dirt.
                                        With fluid buildup, however, he immediately rights himself back up
                                        after rolling onto his back. He also tends to rest in non-standing
                                        position. For instance, when waiting for me to feed him, he no longer
                                        sits on his haunches. Rather, he rests with his front legs bent so
                                        that he is almost in a laying-down position. He also sleeps a lot
                                        more.



                                        --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                        > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them
                                        was not
                                        > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                        > moving...even now.
                                        >
                                        > linda
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@i...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                                        > To: feline-heart@y...
                                        > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a
                                        problem? how
                                        > can
                                        > > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                                        > >
                                        > > linda
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped
                                        the dose
                                        > when
                                        > I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath...
                                        breathing
                                        > with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed
                                        within
                                        > 24hrs
                                        > without the stress of an ER visit.
                                        >
                                        > A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the
                                        lungs
                                        > and
                                        > heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is
                                        prone to it,
                                        > it
                                        > is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are
                                        there.
                                        >
                                        > Anyes
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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