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Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?

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  • VHess2000@cs.com
    Eileen- I don t think you re alone in your reactions. I initially kept Kira s bed next to my pillow, where she usually slept, and even used it as a pillow
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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      Eileen- I don't think you're alone in your reactions. I initially kept
      Kira's bed next to my pillow, where she usually slept, and even used it as a
      pillow the first couple of nights after she died. I was surprised at the
      other cat's reactions though. My other cat Bibi, and my roommates cat,
      Smokey, normally snuck into it whenever she was away, and also would sneak
      over to her upstairs food dish to eat her high calorie kitten food. After
      she died though, they avoided both her bed and food dish like the plague.
      Smokey, who thought of her food as "treats," no longer came running when
      shook the bag of food. It's been about 10 weeks since she's died, and I
      think Smokey is still mourning. They both had sweet temperments and were
      buddies. I starting fostering a kitten for my vet last month, and Smokey,
      who gets along with everyone, just can't seem to warm up to her. I
      eventually let the kitten (now named Mesha) sleep in Kira's bed, but Smokey
      sometimes gives me a look as if to say, "How could you?" I understand how he
      feels. Even though Mesha is sweet, and it's nice to have a kitten in the
      house again, I still miss Kira's particular mannerisms. I struggle with the
      decision of whether to keep Mesha, because in my heart I don't know whether
      it's fair to her at this early stage.

      About ten days after Kira died, I spent several hours putting away her
      various toys, medications and supplements. When I was cleaning the bathroom,
      I found a half of baby aspirin on the floor, where it had fallen when I
      hurridly fumbled with the bottle when I realized she was throwing another
      blood clot. When I swept the floor, I found that it was stuck and couldn't
      be swept up. Since then, I've left it on the floor, and mop around it
      (Luckily it's near the baseboard of the vanity, so it's hardly noticeable).
      I'm always afraid that my roommate, in one of her cleaning frenzy's, will go
      in and vaccuum it up. Somehow seeing that damn aspirin there everytime I go
      in, provides me with an ongoing reminder of Kira, and some important lessons
      I learned from her. It's not rational, and I couldn't admit it to anyone I
      know, but I've resolved to keep it there until I move from here. Grief is
      hell isn't it? I admit to even thinking that the wrong cat had died -- Bibi
      is a problem child, and aspires to be an "only" cat. But now that I can
      devote more time to her, she's "sweetening" up a bit.

      Take good care of yourself and know that all of these idosyncrosies are
      normal.

      Victoria
    • diane
      My Kearra died last November and I still have her favorite mouse on the nightstand next to my bed. It s sort of hidden as I will be very upset if Kali takes
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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        My Kearra died last November and I still have her favorite mouse on the
        nightstand next to my bed. It's sort of hidden as I will be very upset if
        Kali takes it. Sometimes Kali is up there and knocks something off and the
        mouse is exposed, so I hide it under my pillow.

        Frisky died June 2000 and just a few months ago I pulled the throw cover
        off the couch in the sunroom (where he spent most of his last day) to wash
        it. I got it to the basement and heard a "thunk" as I went to put it in the
        washer. His collar with the magnet to open the pet door (I had his
        expensive food locked in a large dog crate with a cat door that only he
        could open) had been wrapped in the throw. I either took it off before his
        last trip to the vet or sat on the couch afterwards with it. All I know is
        seeing it again just stopped me cold - I had forgotten all about it, and
        since I put him to sleep I had more or less come to terms with his death. I
        still cry over Kearra.

        Diane
      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
        i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and today the vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know it s hard to know
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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          i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and today the
          vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know it's hard
          to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the mirror image
          of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what does your
          vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old is he?

          linda

          -----Original Message-----
          From: mukki2@... [mailto:mukki2@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


          I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name, long
          story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
          last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a lot
          better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last legs,
          with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
          July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
          lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
          again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
          has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
          he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
          seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
          again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
          time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
          increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

          Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
          to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
          diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
          diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
          eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
          unpleasantly large pill.

          We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
          want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
          won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
          while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
          choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
          prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
          thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I know
          my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
          that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
          pardon my ignorance but do cats have a tendency to stop urinating when they start going into chf or experiencing pleural effusion? pum s vet came by today and
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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            pardon my ignorance but do cats have a tendency to stop urinating when they
            start going into chf or experiencing pleural effusion? pum's vet came by
            today and said that she thinks he has fluid building up in his lungs....

            also, yesterday he only urinated once vs. his usual 3 times a day...

            comments? thoughts?

            linda




            -----Original Message-----
            From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:27 PM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


            Sometimes a strong dose of injectable lasix can quickly get rid of the fluid
            that has built up, over a period of time. I've used injections in lieu of a
            chest tap in the past, very successivefully. I don't know if you're
            comfortable giving shots or not-- lasix is a little more difficult, as it is
            given in the torso, just below the last rib. Or maybe, your vet can come
            over and give it. Kira urinated 14 times in a six hour period, after
            receiving an injection, but it was enough to bring her out of congestive
            heart failure and make a steady and quick recovery. Than maybe you can
            examine the need for switching to another drug, using dandelion, or
            increasing the the dosage of lasix tablets. I suspect that your cat's
            current problem may be related to the heat and humidity of summer, which is
            especially difficult on heart patients, who tend to retain more fluid and
            are
            generally more uncomfortable during the summer months, when heat naturally
            makes you retain more fluid. It may be worth it to go the injection or
            chest
            tap route, to see if the cooler weather, which is just around the corner,
            offers any relief.

            Victoria


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          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
            do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it? linda ... From: Anyes
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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              do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
              you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?

              linda

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 9:38 PM
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




              mukki2@... wrote:

              > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
              > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
              > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
              > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
              > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
              > unpleasantly large pill.
              >

              We used Dandelion extract for 6 months and Spironolactone for 1 month. Have
              you tried either one of those?
              Dandelion worked great. I gave 2 gelcaps/day and up to 4 gelcaps when there
              was a problem with fluid build up. The last month, we added the other
              diuretic to the routine. My kitty had also had lasix in the ER for several
              days along wiht the gel type diuretic. The lasix took several days of
              repeated doses to work so we did not use it at home after that. We used
              the
              Dandelion instead.

              I hope this helps,
              Anyes




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            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
              the vet took a blood sample to check pum s kidney profile today ...his temp was fine...i ll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn t dehyddrated but
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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                the vet took a blood sample to check pum's kidney profile today ...his temp
                was fine...i'll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn't
                dehyddrated but she said his lungs sound very congested....he's very
                lethargic and yesterdeay ate hardly nothing and didn't drink much...he only
                urinated once tuesday .....i will check his urine again in the am.m and try
                to collect a urine specimen overnite tonite. this is all so terribly
                depressing....and the heat is driving me crazy.....i hope i'm doing the
                right things.

                linda

                -----Original Message-----
                From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:04 AM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                Hi!

                I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to
                make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to
                how much we want to put our cats through to try and prolong their
                lives. Some here have gone the whole 9 yards to try and do everything
                possible and I applaud their stamina. I have a different view as to
                how I am handling Doms HCM, asthma and allergies. We decided 6 months
                ago to go with quality of life for him rather than the quantity. Dom
                has still not needed anything for fluid build up so I can be of no
                help there but others will have lots of suggestions. I can say this
                now because Doms time isn't here today but my DH and I have decided
                to do what you mentioned. When his health gets to a rapid decline, we
                just won't put him through all of the procedures to try and give him
                a little time. Dom is a very sensitive cat both physically and
                mentally. He throws himself into an asthma attack if we even take him
                out to the vets. So, they will come here from now on if he needs
                them. Doms vet, Brian, is heaven sent to me because he helped us
                reach this decision and is now there to help us get to that point. If
                you have a vet you are comfortable with, maybe talking to them would
                help. Brian understands what we want and has been told if I am
                hanging on and Dom is having "any" real problems to please "hit me
                over the head" (not literally! LOL) to see it. I know when the time
                comes, I may not be as willing to back off as I can say on paper so I
                am counting on him to be the voice of reason in this. I do know when
                Doms health declines even more, I will be keeping him alive because I
                don't want to loose him for my benefit not Doms and I don't want that
                to happen. As long as Doms quality of life is good (as it is now) we
                will muddle along and Brian tells me he is already on his second set
                of nine lives as he should not be with us today but he is curled up
                beside the computer as I type this purring away so whatever is
                working for him. I think Smer will let you know when he is really
                failing and you will not want to watch it from what you have said. I
                know it is not going to be easy and I hope that I have the strength
                to do it when I must! The underlying thought for us is that Dom has
                an uncurable, fatal condition and we will let him go to keep him from
                any pain or procedures that will not cure him anyway.

                Good luck in your decision,
                Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


                --- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
                > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                long
                > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                lot
                > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                legs,
                > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and
                25mg
                > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                >
                > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will
                not
                > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                > unpleasantly large pill.
                >
                > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF
                (and
                > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                know
                > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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              • VHess2000@cs.com
                It s not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed, and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues. Victoria
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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                  It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                  and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                  Victoria
                • VHess2000@cs.com
                  Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don t have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan running.
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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                    Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                    have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                    running.

                    Victoria
                  • Anyes Moscrip
                    ... I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the flank breath...
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
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                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                      > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
                      > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                      >
                      > linda
                      >

                      I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when
                      I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                      with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within 24hrs
                      without the stress of an ER visit.

                      A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs and
                      heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it, it
                      is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                      Anyes
                    • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                      can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not sleeping curled up but pum will sleep curled up for hours without moving...even
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                        can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                        sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                        moving...even now.

                        linda

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                        > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                        can
                        > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                        >
                        > linda
                        >

                        I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                        when
                        I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                        with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                        24hrs
                        without the stress of an ER visit.

                        A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                        and
                        heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                        it
                        is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                        Anyes




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                      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                        pum hasn t been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked for blockage and there is none....he s not drinking enough water either....he s
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                          pum hasn't been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked
                          for blockage and there is none....he's not drinking enough water
                          either....he's eating ok but not drinking....doesn't this sound like a
                          kidney problem??? he's not dehydrated.....yet....but in this heat he'll be
                          so soon if he doesn't drink more water....this is terrible, terrible,
                          terrible.

                          linda

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:43 PM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


                          It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                          and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                          Victoria


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                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                          i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he s always been a big drinker and these past 2 days he s been hardly drinking at all....i can tell he s lost
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                            i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he's always been a big
                            drinker and these past 2 days he's been hardly drinking at all....i can tell
                            he's lost some weight too....

                            linda

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:46 PM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                            Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                            have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                            running.

                            Victoria


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                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                            where do you get dandelion? ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                              where do you get dandelion?

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                              > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                              can
                              > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                              >
                              > linda
                              >

                              I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                              when
                              I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                              with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                              24hrs
                              without the stress of an ER visit.

                              A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                              and
                              heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                              it
                              is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                              Anyes




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                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                            • Anyes Moscrip
                              ... Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                                > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                > moving...even now.
                                >

                                Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                                belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                                squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids push
                                against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as bellows,
                                drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart with
                                stethoscope.

                                2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and a
                                stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                                gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is like
                                so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                                I hope this helps,
                                Anyes and the girls
                              • Anyes Moscrip
                                ... I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                  Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                  > where do you get dandelion?
                                  >

                                  I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                                  liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps and
                                  gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid build
                                  up.

                                  I hope this helps,
                                  Anyes
                                • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                  Dear Everyone and Anynes, Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid buildup Pum : -lies on his back -sleep curled up for long
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                    Dear Everyone and Anynes,

                                    Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                    buildup

                                    Pum :

                                    -lies on his back
                                    -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                    -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                                    as possible
                                    -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                                    we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                    -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                    -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                    -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                    already in the middle of a meow

                                    Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....


                                    We are grateful for all input.....


                                    Purrs,
                                    Linda and Pum



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:18 PM
                                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                    Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                    > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                                    > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                    > moving...even now.
                                    >

                                    Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                                    belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                                    squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids
                                    push
                                    against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as
                                    bellows,
                                    drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart
                                    with
                                    stethoscope.

                                    2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and
                                    a
                                    stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                                    gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is
                                    like
                                    so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                                    I hope this helps,
                                    Anyes and the girls




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                                  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                    can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps (pum hates pills)? how do you know which potency to buy?? how much do you put in
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                      can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                      (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                      put in each gelcap?

                                      Linda

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:20 PM
                                      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                      > where do you get dandelion?
                                      >

                                      I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                                      liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                                      and
                                      gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid
                                      build
                                      up.

                                      I hope this helps,
                                      Anyes




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                                    • Anyes Moscrip
                                      ... I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                        > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                        >
                                        > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                        > buildup
                                        >
                                        > Pum :
                                        >
                                        > -lies on his back
                                        > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                        > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                                        > as possible
                                        > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                                        > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                        > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                        > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                        > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                        > already in the middle of a meow
                                        >
                                        > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                        >
                                        > We are grateful for all input.....

                                        I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                        will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                        attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he had
                                        fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front legs
                                        and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure, and
                                        not just occasionally.

                                        The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or asthma.
                                        Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                        Anyes
                                      • Anyes Moscrip
                                        ... I don t see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                          > can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                          > (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                          > put in each gelcap?
                                          >
                                          > Linda
                                          >

                                          I don't see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not
                                          tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste if
                                          that's the case. It does not take much. I just filled the size 3 gelcap with
                                          it.

                                          Anyes
                                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                          yes, he s mildly asthmatic... ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 10, 2001
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                                            yes, he's mildly asthmatic...

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                            Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM
                                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                            > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                            >
                                            > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                            > buildup
                                            >
                                            > Pum :
                                            >
                                            > -lies on his back
                                            > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                            > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as
                                            little
                                            > as possible
                                            > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this
                                            until
                                            > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                            > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                            > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                            > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                            > already in the middle of a meow
                                            >
                                            > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                            >
                                            > We are grateful for all input.....

                                            I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                            will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                            attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he
                                            had
                                            fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front
                                            legs
                                            and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure,
                                            and
                                            not just occasionally.

                                            The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or
                                            asthma.
                                            Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                            Anyes




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                                          • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                            Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental cleaning). I ve been quite
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
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                                              Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in
                                              January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental
                                              cleaning). I've been quite attentive to him, adjusting the
                                              medications after doing research (which I know you aren't supposed to
                                              do). This downhill spiral started after we left him to go to LV for a
                                              weekend in late July. He gurgled after that and then I went to Palm
                                              Springs last weekend and he's much worse now (although I seem to have
                                              stabilized him). I think he gets stressed when we leave him even
                                              though he has someone who comes over to feed him and give him meds.
                                              He's very tired but still shows signs of happiness. I might try the
                                              Dandelion or ask the vet about injectable lasix. Unfortunately, I
                                              don't think my vets are very experimental or at least don't have a
                                              wide range of experience.

                                              --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                              > i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and
                                              today the
                                              > vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know
                                              it's hard
                                              > to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the
                                              mirror image
                                              > of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what
                                              does your
                                              > vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old
                                              is he?
                                              >
                                              > linda
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: mukki2@y... [mailto:mukki2@y...]
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
                                              > To: feline-heart@y...
                                              > Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                                              long
                                              > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                                              > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                                              lot
                                              > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                                              legs,
                                              > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                                              > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
                                              > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                                              > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                                              > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                                              > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                                              > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                                              > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                                              > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                                              > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                                              >
                                              > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                                              > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                                              > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                                              > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                                              > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                                              > unpleasantly large pill.
                                              >
                                              > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                                              > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
                                              > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                                              > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                                              > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                                              > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                                              > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                                              know
                                              > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                                              > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                                              >
                                              >
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                                            • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                              My cat still sleeps curled up, although it s true that when he previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the fact that he sleeps curled up
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
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                                                My cat still sleeps curled up, although it's true that when he
                                                previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the
                                                fact that he sleeps curled up makes me think that he can't be feeling
                                                too bad since it should be uncomfortable with fluid in the lungs;
                                                maybe he had just gotten used to the discomfort, however.

                                                One definite sign in my cat is that he makes a gurgling sound when he
                                                purrs. As someone else noted, you can also see his sides being sucked
                                                (below the ribs) in and out when he breathes (there is a medical term
                                                for this, but I've forgotten it). He also will not stay on his back
                                                for a prolonged period. For instance, he likes to roll in the dirt.
                                                With fluid buildup, however, he immediately rights himself back up
                                                after rolling onto his back. He also tends to rest in non-standing
                                                position. For instance, when waiting for me to feed him, he no longer
                                                sits on his haunches. Rather, he rests with his front legs bent so
                                                that he is almost in a laying-down position. He also sleeps a lot
                                                more.



                                                --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                                > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them
                                                was not
                                                > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                                > moving...even now.
                                                >
                                                > linda
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@i...]
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                                                > To: feline-heart@y...
                                                > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a
                                                problem? how
                                                > can
                                                > > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                                                > >
                                                > > linda
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped
                                                the dose
                                                > when
                                                > I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath...
                                                breathing
                                                > with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed
                                                within
                                                > 24hrs
                                                > without the stress of an ER visit.
                                                >
                                                > A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the
                                                lungs
                                                > and
                                                > heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is
                                                prone to it,
                                                > it
                                                > is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are
                                                there.
                                                >
                                                > Anyes
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >
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