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Re: when is it time to euthanize?

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  • flyerfan@blazenet.net
    Hi! I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to how much we
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
      Hi!

      I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to
      make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to
      how much we want to put our cats through to try and prolong their
      lives. Some here have gone the whole 9 yards to try and do everything
      possible and I applaud their stamina. I have a different view as to
      how I am handling Doms HCM, asthma and allergies. We decided 6 months
      ago to go with quality of life for him rather than the quantity. Dom
      has still not needed anything for fluid build up so I can be of no
      help there but others will have lots of suggestions. I can say this
      now because Doms time isn't here today but my DH and I have decided
      to do what you mentioned. When his health gets to a rapid decline, we
      just won't put him through all of the procedures to try and give him
      a little time. Dom is a very sensitive cat both physically and
      mentally. He throws himself into an asthma attack if we even take him
      out to the vets. So, they will come here from now on if he needs
      them. Doms vet, Brian, is heaven sent to me because he helped us
      reach this decision and is now there to help us get to that point. If
      you have a vet you are comfortable with, maybe talking to them would
      help. Brian understands what we want and has been told if I am
      hanging on and Dom is having "any" real problems to please "hit me
      over the head" (not literally! LOL) to see it. I know when the time
      comes, I may not be as willing to back off as I can say on paper so I
      am counting on him to be the voice of reason in this. I do know when
      Doms health declines even more, I will be keeping him alive because I
      don't want to loose him for my benefit not Doms and I don't want that
      to happen. As long as Doms quality of life is good (as it is now) we
      will muddle along and Brian tells me he is already on his second set
      of nine lives as he should not be with us today but he is curled up
      beside the computer as I type this purring away so whatever is
      working for him. I think Smer will let you know when he is really
      failing and you will not want to watch it from what you have said. I
      know it is not going to be easy and I hope that I have the strength
      to do it when I must! The underlying thought for us is that Dom has
      an uncurable, fatal condition and we will let him go to keep him from
      any pain or procedures that will not cure him anyway.

      Good luck in your decision,
      Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


      --- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
      > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
      long
      > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
      > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
      lot
      > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
      legs,
      > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
      > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and
      25mg
      > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
      > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
      > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
      > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
      > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
      > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
      > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
      > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
      >
      > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
      > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
      > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
      > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will
      not
      > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
      > unpleasantly large pill.
      >
      > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
      > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF
      (and
      > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
      > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
      > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
      > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
      > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
      know
      > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
      > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
    • VHess2000@cs.com
      Eileen- I don t think you re alone in your reactions. I initially kept Kira s bed next to my pillow, where she usually slept, and even used it as a pillow
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
        Eileen- I don't think you're alone in your reactions. I initially kept
        Kira's bed next to my pillow, where she usually slept, and even used it as a
        pillow the first couple of nights after she died. I was surprised at the
        other cat's reactions though. My other cat Bibi, and my roommates cat,
        Smokey, normally snuck into it whenever she was away, and also would sneak
        over to her upstairs food dish to eat her high calorie kitten food. After
        she died though, they avoided both her bed and food dish like the plague.
        Smokey, who thought of her food as "treats," no longer came running when
        shook the bag of food. It's been about 10 weeks since she's died, and I
        think Smokey is still mourning. They both had sweet temperments and were
        buddies. I starting fostering a kitten for my vet last month, and Smokey,
        who gets along with everyone, just can't seem to warm up to her. I
        eventually let the kitten (now named Mesha) sleep in Kira's bed, but Smokey
        sometimes gives me a look as if to say, "How could you?" I understand how he
        feels. Even though Mesha is sweet, and it's nice to have a kitten in the
        house again, I still miss Kira's particular mannerisms. I struggle with the
        decision of whether to keep Mesha, because in my heart I don't know whether
        it's fair to her at this early stage.

        About ten days after Kira died, I spent several hours putting away her
        various toys, medications and supplements. When I was cleaning the bathroom,
        I found a half of baby aspirin on the floor, where it had fallen when I
        hurridly fumbled with the bottle when I realized she was throwing another
        blood clot. When I swept the floor, I found that it was stuck and couldn't
        be swept up. Since then, I've left it on the floor, and mop around it
        (Luckily it's near the baseboard of the vanity, so it's hardly noticeable).
        I'm always afraid that my roommate, in one of her cleaning frenzy's, will go
        in and vaccuum it up. Somehow seeing that damn aspirin there everytime I go
        in, provides me with an ongoing reminder of Kira, and some important lessons
        I learned from her. It's not rational, and I couldn't admit it to anyone I
        know, but I've resolved to keep it there until I move from here. Grief is
        hell isn't it? I admit to even thinking that the wrong cat had died -- Bibi
        is a problem child, and aspires to be an "only" cat. But now that I can
        devote more time to her, she's "sweetening" up a bit.

        Take good care of yourself and know that all of these idosyncrosies are
        normal.

        Victoria
      • diane
        My Kearra died last November and I still have her favorite mouse on the nightstand next to my bed. It s sort of hidden as I will be very upset if Kali takes
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
          My Kearra died last November and I still have her favorite mouse on the
          nightstand next to my bed. It's sort of hidden as I will be very upset if
          Kali takes it. Sometimes Kali is up there and knocks something off and the
          mouse is exposed, so I hide it under my pillow.

          Frisky died June 2000 and just a few months ago I pulled the throw cover
          off the couch in the sunroom (where he spent most of his last day) to wash
          it. I got it to the basement and heard a "thunk" as I went to put it in the
          washer. His collar with the magnet to open the pet door (I had his
          expensive food locked in a large dog crate with a cat door that only he
          could open) had been wrapped in the throw. I either took it off before his
          last trip to the vet or sat on the couch afterwards with it. All I know is
          seeing it again just stopped me cold - I had forgotten all about it, and
          since I put him to sleep I had more or less come to terms with his death. I
          still cry over Kearra.

          Diane
        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
          i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and today the vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know it s hard to know
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
            i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and today the
            vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know it's hard
            to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the mirror image
            of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what does your
            vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old is he?

            linda

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mukki2@... [mailto:mukki2@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


            I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name, long
            story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
            last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a lot
            better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last legs,
            with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
            July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
            lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
            again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
            has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
            he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
            seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
            again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
            time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
            increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

            Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
            to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
            diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
            diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
            eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
            unpleasantly large pill.

            We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
            want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
            won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
            while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
            choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
            prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
            thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I know
            my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
            that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
            pardon my ignorance but do cats have a tendency to stop urinating when they start going into chf or experiencing pleural effusion? pum s vet came by today and
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
              pardon my ignorance but do cats have a tendency to stop urinating when they
              start going into chf or experiencing pleural effusion? pum's vet came by
              today and said that she thinks he has fluid building up in his lungs....

              also, yesterday he only urinated once vs. his usual 3 times a day...

              comments? thoughts?

              linda




              -----Original Message-----
              From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:27 PM
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


              Sometimes a strong dose of injectable lasix can quickly get rid of the fluid
              that has built up, over a period of time. I've used injections in lieu of a
              chest tap in the past, very successivefully. I don't know if you're
              comfortable giving shots or not-- lasix is a little more difficult, as it is
              given in the torso, just below the last rib. Or maybe, your vet can come
              over and give it. Kira urinated 14 times in a six hour period, after
              receiving an injection, but it was enough to bring her out of congestive
              heart failure and make a steady and quick recovery. Than maybe you can
              examine the need for switching to another drug, using dandelion, or
              increasing the the dosage of lasix tablets. I suspect that your cat's
              current problem may be related to the heat and humidity of summer, which is
              especially difficult on heart patients, who tend to retain more fluid and
              are
              generally more uncomfortable during the summer months, when heat naturally
              makes you retain more fluid. It may be worth it to go the injection or
              chest
              tap route, to see if the cooler weather, which is just around the corner,
              offers any relief.

              Victoria


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            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
              do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it? linda ... From: Anyes
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
                do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
                you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?

                linda

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 9:38 PM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                mukki2@... wrote:

                > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                > unpleasantly large pill.
                >

                We used Dandelion extract for 6 months and Spironolactone for 1 month. Have
                you tried either one of those?
                Dandelion worked great. I gave 2 gelcaps/day and up to 4 gelcaps when there
                was a problem with fluid build up. The last month, we added the other
                diuretic to the routine. My kitty had also had lasix in the ER for several
                days along wiht the gel type diuretic. The lasix took several days of
                repeated doses to work so we did not use it at home after that. We used
                the
                Dandelion instead.

                I hope this helps,
                Anyes




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              • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                the vet took a blood sample to check pum s kidney profile today ...his temp was fine...i ll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn t dehyddrated but
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
                  the vet took a blood sample to check pum's kidney profile today ...his temp
                  was fine...i'll try to collect a urine specimen tonite....he isn't
                  dehyddrated but she said his lungs sound very congested....he's very
                  lethargic and yesterdeay ate hardly nothing and didn't drink much...he only
                  urinated once tuesday .....i will check his urine again in the am.m and try
                  to collect a urine specimen overnite tonite. this is all so terribly
                  depressing....and the heat is driving me crazy.....i hope i'm doing the
                  right things.

                  linda

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:04 AM
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                  Hi!

                  I am so sorry to hear that it may be getting near the time for you to
                  make this difficult decision. I think it is an individual thing as to
                  how much we want to put our cats through to try and prolong their
                  lives. Some here have gone the whole 9 yards to try and do everything
                  possible and I applaud their stamina. I have a different view as to
                  how I am handling Doms HCM, asthma and allergies. We decided 6 months
                  ago to go with quality of life for him rather than the quantity. Dom
                  has still not needed anything for fluid build up so I can be of no
                  help there but others will have lots of suggestions. I can say this
                  now because Doms time isn't here today but my DH and I have decided
                  to do what you mentioned. When his health gets to a rapid decline, we
                  just won't put him through all of the procedures to try and give him
                  a little time. Dom is a very sensitive cat both physically and
                  mentally. He throws himself into an asthma attack if we even take him
                  out to the vets. So, they will come here from now on if he needs
                  them. Doms vet, Brian, is heaven sent to me because he helped us
                  reach this decision and is now there to help us get to that point. If
                  you have a vet you are comfortable with, maybe talking to them would
                  help. Brian understands what we want and has been told if I am
                  hanging on and Dom is having "any" real problems to please "hit me
                  over the head" (not literally! LOL) to see it. I know when the time
                  comes, I may not be as willing to back off as I can say on paper so I
                  am counting on him to be the voice of reason in this. I do know when
                  Doms health declines even more, I will be keeping him alive because I
                  don't want to loose him for my benefit not Doms and I don't want that
                  to happen. As long as Doms quality of life is good (as it is now) we
                  will muddle along and Brian tells me he is already on his second set
                  of nine lives as he should not be with us today but he is curled up
                  beside the computer as I type this purring away so whatever is
                  working for him. I think Smer will let you know when he is really
                  failing and you will not want to watch it from what you have said. I
                  know it is not going to be easy and I hope that I have the strength
                  to do it when I must! The underlying thought for us is that Dom has
                  an uncurable, fatal condition and we will let him go to keep him from
                  any pain or procedures that will not cure him anyway.

                  Good luck in your decision,
                  Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


                  --- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
                  > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                  long
                  > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                  > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                  lot
                  > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                  legs,
                  > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                  > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and
                  25mg
                  > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                  > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                  > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                  > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                  > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                  > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                  > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                  > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                  >
                  > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                  > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                  > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                  > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will
                  not
                  > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                  > unpleasantly large pill.
                  >
                  > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                  > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF
                  (and
                  > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                  > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                  > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                  > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                  > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                  know
                  > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                  > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.



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                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                • VHess2000@cs.com
                  It s not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed, and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues. Victoria
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
                    It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                    and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                    Victoria
                  • VHess2000@cs.com
                    Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don t have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan running.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
                      Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                      have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                      running.

                      Victoria
                    • Anyes Moscrip
                      ... I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the flank breath...
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 5, 2001
                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                        > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how can
                        > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                        >
                        > linda
                        >

                        I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose when
                        I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                        with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within 24hrs
                        without the stress of an ER visit.

                        A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs and
                        heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it, it
                        is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                        Anyes
                      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                        can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not sleeping curled up but pum will sleep curled up for hours without moving...even
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                          can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                          sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                          moving...even now.

                          linda

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                          > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                          can
                          > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                          >
                          > linda
                          >

                          I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                          when
                          I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                          with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                          24hrs
                          without the stress of an ER visit.

                          A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                          and
                          heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                          it
                          is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                          Anyes




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                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                          pum hasn t been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked for blockage and there is none....he s not drinking enough water either....he s
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                            pum hasn't been urinating adequately these past few days....the vet checked
                            for blockage and there is none....he's not drinking enough water
                            either....he's eating ok but not drinking....doesn't this sound like a
                            kidney problem??? he's not dehydrated.....yet....but in this heat he'll be
                            so soon if he doesn't drink more water....this is terrible, terrible,
                            terrible.

                            linda

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:43 PM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?


                            It's not that they stop urinating... As blood backs up in the overstressed,
                            and inefficent heart, fluid leaks into the surrounding tissues.

                            Victoria


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                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                            i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he s always been a big drinker and these past 2 days he s been hardly drinking at all....i can tell he s lost
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                              i keep him in the ac as much as possible...but he's always been a big
                              drinker and these past 2 days he's been hardly drinking at all....i can tell
                              he's lost some weight too....

                              linda

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: VHess2000@... [mailto:VHess2000@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:46 PM
                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: when is it time to euthanize?


                              Heat and humidity tends to excerbate symtoms in cardio cats. If you don't
                              have air conditioning, try keeping your cat in a tiled bathroom with a fan
                              running.

                              Victoria


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                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                              where do you get dandelion? ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                                where do you get dandelion?

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a problem? how
                                can
                                > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                                >
                                > linda
                                >

                                I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped the dose
                                when
                                I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath... breathing
                                with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed within
                                24hrs
                                without the stress of an ER visit.

                                A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the lungs
                                and
                                heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is prone to it,
                                it
                                is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are there.

                                Anyes




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                              • Anyes Moscrip
                                ... Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                                  Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                  > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                                  > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                  > moving...even now.
                                  >

                                  Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                                  belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                                  squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids push
                                  against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as bellows,
                                  drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart with
                                  stethoscope.

                                  2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and a
                                  stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                                  gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is like
                                  so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                                  I hope this helps,
                                  Anyes and the girls
                                • Anyes Moscrip
                                  ... I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 6, 2001
                                    Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                    > where do you get dandelion?
                                    >

                                    I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                                    liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps and
                                    gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid build
                                    up.

                                    I hope this helps,
                                    Anyes
                                  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                    Dear Everyone and Anynes, Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid buildup Pum : -lies on his back -sleep curled up for long
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                      Dear Everyone and Anynes,

                                      Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                      buildup

                                      Pum :

                                      -lies on his back
                                      -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                      -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                                      as possible
                                      -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                                      we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                      -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                      -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                      -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                      already in the middle of a meow

                                      Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....


                                      We are grateful for all input.....


                                      Purrs,
                                      Linda and Pum



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:18 PM
                                      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                      Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                      > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them was not
                                      > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                      > moving...even now.
                                      >

                                      Yes, a kitty with fluid build up will not lay down with head upside down or
                                      belly up. Also, sudden weight gain with drop in appetite, sleeping more,
                                      squeaking or protesting when picked up with hand under rib cage (as fluids
                                      push
                                      against major organs), slowed deliberate breaths using lower flanks as
                                      bellows,
                                      drop in body temperature, muffled heart sound when listening to the heart
                                      with
                                      stethoscope.

                                      2 very good tools to have at home: a scale that measure to 1/10 of once and
                                      a
                                      stethoscope. I weighed my hcm/crf kitty every day to monitor unusual weight
                                      gain. With the stethoscope (about $10), you learn what the normal sound is
                                      like
                                      so that when the heart is muffled by fluids, you know the difference.

                                      I hope this helps,
                                      Anyes and the girls




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                                      feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                                    • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                      can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps (pum hates pills)? how do you know which potency to buy?? how much do you put in
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                        can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                        (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                        put in each gelcap?

                                        Linda

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:20 PM
                                        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                        Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                        > where do you get dandelion?
                                        >

                                        I got my dandelion extract at the health food store. I got a glycerin based
                                        liquid extract. It is highly concentrated. I put the liquid in #3 gelcaps
                                        and
                                        gave it twice a day, up to 4 times when there were initial signs of fluid
                                        build
                                        up.

                                        I hope this helps,
                                        Anyes




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                                        feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                                      • Anyes Moscrip
                                        ... I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                          Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                          > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                          >
                                          > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                          > buildup
                                          >
                                          > Pum :
                                          >
                                          > -lies on his back
                                          > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                          > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as little
                                          > as possible
                                          > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this until
                                          > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                          > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                          > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                          > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                          > already in the middle of a meow
                                          >
                                          > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                          >
                                          > We are grateful for all input.....

                                          I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                          will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                          attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he had
                                          fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front legs
                                          and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure, and
                                          not just occasionally.

                                          The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or asthma.
                                          Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                          Anyes
                                        • Anyes Moscrip
                                          ... I don t see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 7, 2001
                                            Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                            > can you just give it in liquid drops??? how much do you put in the gelcaps
                                            > (pum hates pills)? how do you know which "potency" to buy?? how much do you
                                            > put in each gelcap?
                                            >
                                            > Linda
                                            >

                                            I don't see why you could not give the drops or mix them in food. I have not
                                            tasted it but I believe Dandelion is bitter so you have to conceal the taste if
                                            that's the case. It does not take much. I just filled the size 3 gelcap with
                                            it.

                                            Anyes
                                          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                                            yes, he s mildly asthmatic... ... From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 10, 2001
                                              yes, he's mildly asthmatic...

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@...]
                                              Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:51 PM
                                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?




                                              Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:

                                              > Dear Everyone and Anynes,
                                              >
                                              > Can you please give me your educated opinion on the following re: fluid
                                              > buildup
                                              >
                                              > Pum :
                                              >
                                              > -lies on his back
                                              > -sleep curled up for long periods of time
                                              > -does not like to "meow" right now; seems to avoid meowing; meows as
                                              little
                                              > as possible
                                              > -lies stretched out on his side alot to rest/sleep (he never did this
                                              until
                                              > we lived here and I attribute it to the excessive amt of heat)
                                              > -drinks alot of water (but always has)
                                              > -"wheezes" at inhalation
                                              > -squeaks when i pick him up like under the rib cage but only if he was
                                              > already in the middle of a meow
                                              >
                                              > Thank you for taking time to talk to us.....
                                              >
                                              > We are grateful for all input.....

                                              I doubt very much that there is fluid build up. A kitty with fluid build up
                                              will not lay down on his back. It is very hard to breathe that way. I can
                                              attest to that personally. Also, the squeaking would be unmistakable if he
                                              had
                                              fluid build up. If you put your palm under his rib cage between his front
                                              legs
                                              and lift his upper body off the couch, he would protest from the pressure,
                                              and
                                              not just occasionally.

                                              The wheezing has me a little worried but sounds more like allergies or
                                              asthma.
                                              Has Pum ever suffered from either?

                                              Anyes




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                                            • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                              Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental cleaning). I ve been quite
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
                                                Every vet I talk to is surprised he is still alive (diagnosed in
                                                January 2000, after he went into CHF after a routine dental
                                                cleaning). I've been quite attentive to him, adjusting the
                                                medications after doing research (which I know you aren't supposed to
                                                do). This downhill spiral started after we left him to go to LV for a
                                                weekend in late July. He gurgled after that and then I went to Palm
                                                Springs last weekend and he's much worse now (although I seem to have
                                                stabilized him). I think he gets stressed when we leave him even
                                                though he has someone who comes over to feed him and give him meds.
                                                He's very tired but still shows signs of happiness. I might try the
                                                Dandelion or ask the vet about injectable lasix. Unfortunately, I
                                                don't think my vets are very experimental or at least don't have a
                                                wide range of experience.

                                                --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                                > i think that my pumpkin is starting to have the same problem and
                                                today the
                                                > vet came to see him and talked about fluid in his lungs....i know
                                                it's hard
                                                > to know the right time to pts but i feel that your smer is the
                                                mirror image
                                                > of my pum.....it's so hard....i 'll pray for you and smer.....what
                                                does your
                                                > vet say about his prognosis??? how long has he been dx/ed? how old
                                                is he?
                                                >
                                                > linda
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: mukki2@y... [mailto:mukki2@y...]
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:57 PM
                                                > To: feline-heart@y...
                                                > Subject: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I posted on this board last year about my cat, Smer (silly name,
                                                long
                                                > story), who has mitral valve insufficiency and is now 11. Starting
                                                > last December, when we moved into a new house, he started doing a
                                                lot
                                                > better. Last summer (2000), I really thought he was on his last
                                                legs,
                                                > with fluid building in his lungs. From about December until last
                                                > July, he had no problems and I had him on 2.5mg Vasotec BID and 25mg
                                                > lasix BID (scary, I know). Starting in late July, the fluid once
                                                > again began to build up in his lungs. He now gurgles when he purrs,
                                                > has problems breathing, and sleeps almost all of the time, although
                                                > he still eats, moves around, meets me at the door, and generally
                                                > seems happy. I do NOT want to take him to the emergency hospital
                                                > again in order to have the fluid drained from his lungs -- the last
                                                > time he was there in August of 2000, he was very upset. I've
                                                > increased his lasix, but it doesn't seem to be helping.
                                                >
                                                > Two questions. I've read that doctors often use a mix of diurectics
                                                > to help flush fluid because the body becomes resistant to the same
                                                > diuretic over time. Does anyone have any suggestions for other
                                                > diurectics their vets have used? I have tried rutin, but he will not
                                                > eat this in his food and I refuse to pill him with such an
                                                > unpleasantly large pill.
                                                >
                                                > We have seriously been thinking of putting Smer to sleep. We don't
                                                > want him to decline to the point where he goes into serious CHF (and
                                                > won't eat) or drowns of fluid in his lungs. I'd rather let him go
                                                > while he is still relatively happy and spare him any torment. If I
                                                > choose the date, I can have the vet come to our house, which is
                                                > prefereable since Smer hates car rides and veterinarians. Any
                                                > thoughts? I realize this is probably a personal decision since I
                                                know
                                                > my cat best, but if anyone has any thoughts or has any experiences
                                                > that can help to guide me, I would appreciate them. Thanks.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • mukki2@yahoo.com
                                                My cat still sleeps curled up, although it s true that when he previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the fact that he sleeps curled up
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 20, 2001
                                                  My cat still sleeps curled up, although it's true that when he
                                                  previously had fluid buildup, he did sleep upright. In fact, the
                                                  fact that he sleeps curled up makes me think that he can't be feeling
                                                  too bad since it should be uncomfortable with fluid in the lungs;
                                                  maybe he had just gotten used to the discomfort, however.

                                                  One definite sign in my cat is that he makes a gurgling sound when he
                                                  purrs. As someone else noted, you can also see his sides being sucked
                                                  (below the ribs) in and out when he breathes (there is a medical term
                                                  for this, but I've forgotten it). He also will not stay on his back
                                                  for a prolonged period. For instance, he likes to roll in the dirt.
                                                  With fluid buildup, however, he immediately rights himself back up
                                                  after rolling onto his back. He also tends to rest in non-standing
                                                  position. For instance, when waiting for me to feed him, he no longer
                                                  sits on his haunches. Rather, he rests with his front legs bent so
                                                  that he is almost in a laying-down position. He also sleeps a lot
                                                  more.



                                                  --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                                                  > can you tell me more about the early signs? i thought one of them
                                                  was not
                                                  > sleeping "curled up" but pum will sleep curled up for hours without
                                                  > moving...even now.
                                                  >
                                                  > linda
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: Anyes Moscrip [mailto:anyes@i...]
                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:15 PM
                                                  > To: feline-heart@y...
                                                  > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] when is it time to euthanize?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike & Linda Irrgang wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > do you wait to give the dandelion until you know there is a
                                                  problem? how
                                                  > can
                                                  > > you detect fluid buildup in the lungs? does an xray show it?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > linda
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > I gave the dandelion as a preventive daily for 6 months. I upped
                                                  the dose
                                                  > when
                                                  > I saw early signs of fluid build up, such as the 'flank' breath...
                                                  breathing
                                                  > with the lower flanks used as bellows. The fluid got reabsorbed
                                                  within
                                                  > 24hrs
                                                  > without the stress of an ER visit.
                                                  >
                                                  > A vet can tell if there is fluid in the lungs from listening to the
                                                  lungs
                                                  > and
                                                  > heart. It can be seen on xrays, but once you know your cat is
                                                  prone to it,
                                                  > it
                                                  > is no longer necessary to do an xray each time. Other signs are
                                                  there.
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyes
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
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