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Enlarged heart

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  • Carol
    We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball s been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 9, 2009
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      We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball's been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her respiration went up from 28 (which for me is already the high end of normal) to sometimes 36 to 40. She's been stable for a year now, and I guess I should be thankful for that, but I'm worried now.

      The vet said her xrays showed that her heart is enlarged. It's never been that before.

      We're going to have the cardiologist do an ultrasound on both of them in the next two weeks, since it's been six months since they had one. I'm afraid to find out any new news now.

      My question is that once the heart gets enlarged, can it go back to normal again?

      Thanks for any info on that.

      On another note, yesterday they had to sedate Snowball to do the xrays, and she's STILL kind of out of it from the sedative. They gave her Butorphanol. She was up all night, just staring off into nothing. It was like she couldn't close her eyes. She wouldn't eat a thing after we came home from the vet, so she hadn't had any food since 4pm yesterday afternoon. This morning I got her to eat a tiny bit, but she's not eating really. Her eyes are still dilated some and she's acting wonky, distracted and disoriented still.

      Is there anything that can counteract the side effects of the drug? Anyone know of any homeopathic remedies maybe? I'm hesitant to give her another drug to treat a drug side effect, so thought a homeopathic remedy might help. I don't know enough about how to choose the homeopathic remedies to know what to give her. I just thought if anyone's been through this before... the side effects of a sedative thing, and you used homeopathic remedies to deal with it, you could share that info.

      Thanks,
      Carol and Snowball and the gang
    • dshale1
      ... I know it s possible, but whether probable, that s different. My mother had an enlarged heart for years, but at her last x-ray and echo, her cardiologist
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 9, 2009
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        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
        >
        > We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball's been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her respiration went up from 28 (which for me is already the high end of normal) to sometimes 36 to 40. She's been stable for a year now, and I guess I should be thankful for that, but I'm worried now.
        >
        > The vet said her xrays showed that her heart is enlarged. It's never been that before.
        >
        > We're going to have the cardiologist do an ultrasound on both of them in the next two weeks, since it's been six months since they had one. I'm afraid to find out any new news now.
        >
        > My question is that once the heart gets enlarged, can it go back to normal again?
        >
        > Thanks for any info on that.
        >
        I know it's possible, but whether probable, that's different. My mother had an enlarged heart for years, but at her last x-ray and echo, her cardiologist said her heart was normal sized. She asked him if an enlarged heart can become normal again and he said yes.

        However, my mother doesn't have cardiomyopathy. I think it depends on what is causing the heart to enlarge. I'd like to hope that maybe Pye's heart won't look so bad on her next echo or x-rays, so I want to believe the enalapril might help that happen.

        Also, as you know, the echo might show something else. I wouldn't assume that x-rays are always right.
        -Susan
      • Jean
        Hi Carol, I m sorry that I don t know/remember more of Snowball s history, but for whatever it s worth, these have been my experiences: I had to treat my
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 9, 2009
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          Hi Carol,

          I'm sorry that I don't know/remember more of Snowball's history, but for
          whatever it's worth, these have been my experiences:

          I had to treat my non-heart kitty with prednisolone in January (long-lasting
          injection) and February (oral dose due to gastric side effects from the
          injection, two weeks at full strength then tapering off over three weeks) -
          I wasn't crazy about it, since I had a barely-stable heart kitty post-CHF,
          but a skin biopsy had revealed she had an allergic reaction, which was
          chronic but had recently flared up again and gotten checked out, and after
          shaving her fur to do the biopsy (and the irritation of stitches/healing)
          she was licking the area raw. So I was willing to do one or two rounds of
          pred in the hopes of calming the area down, keeping her from licking it so
          raw/open she'd get an infection, and just trying to settle things down while
          her fur grew back and we had time for some trial-and-error changes to maybe
          get to the root of the problem. But I was obviously watching her VERY
          carefully. Towards the end of the course of oral prednisone, she was running
          around with her toys and then had a few pants - she seemed fine, and I'd
          been keeping an eye on her respiration rate, but she ALWAYS runs around like
          a maniac playing and I've NEVER heard her pant. So I called the vet and we
          were there being seen within 20 minutes. Her respiration rate was elevated
          (she was also having a quiet panic attack due to the car/vet thing, so since
          the number I got before the vet came in and we removed her from the carrier
          was so much lower than his - mine was 42 - we weren't terribly worried about
          CHF, and figured most likely the prednisone was just affecting her stamina.
          But obviously had to do a chest x-ray to confirm that her lungs were clear
          before sending her home on ANY more pred - if the lungs were clear, we'd
          dramatically accelerate the tapering off and try to keep her from playing
          too hard in the meantime, but she obviously couldn't have any more pred if
          there WERE lung issues. This is all to preface that in her chest x-ray (and
          she had just had a normal EKG two months before pre- and during her biopsy),
          her heart looked large. This particular vet is great, and had seen
          Patches (my RCM kitty) after his diagnosis, and wasn't about to come back
          and tell me I may have another heart kitty without being sure. So he ran a
          "mini-echo" to get a better look at things (which he'd have had to do anyway
          to send her home to taper off the pred). Thank goodness, her heart was
          perfectly sized on the echo, but he explained when he DID tell me that heart
          size on x-ray can be pretty subjective - sometimes it will look large and
          will be large, but sometimes a large heart won't stand out on an x-ray, or
          it can look large but be perfectly normal (as was the case for us this
          time). So while it sounds like there are some other reasons to be concerned
          about Snowball's heart, the echo will be far more useful than the x-ray, I
          think. (In contrast, Patches had a chest x-ray to rule out pneumonia a year
          and a half before CHF/diagnosis with severe RCM; what his degree of heart
          disease may have been at that time, if it had started, I'll never know, but
          his heart didn't stand out on that x-ray. When he went into CHF his heart
          was clearly, unambiguously very large on x-ray, but the echo the next day
          confirmed that he had an incredibly, severely enlarged heart by then. Which
          I'm not mentioning because I think that's suddenly the case with Snowball,
          but because at the point his heart looked large on x-ray it was SO severe
          that the lack of ambiguity isn't surprising. I have no idea if his heart
          disease had started when he had the previous chest x-ray - about eight
          months later, and 10-11 months before CHF/diagnosis, he also had an EKG done
          before being put under for a dental and tooth extraction - had to be done,
          since he had some swelling. Everything was normal, and more importantly he
          came through the anesthesia just fine at that time. Seemed less drunk when
          he got home that night than the young, heart-disease-free kitty did after
          her skin biopsy.)

          Re the butorphanol - they gave Patches the same thing to reduce the risk
          (from stress) to him when he needed x-rays during acute CHF, and the good
          news is that it's pretty heart-disease/respiratory-issue safe. (That was my
          first concern when they said they wanted to give him a mild sedative to help
          him through the x-rays, since his resps were above 60 at that point and he
          was in the O2 cage.) The last thing they want to do is overly stress a heart
          kitty, particularly if they already have respiratory symptoms, and make
          things worse. (After Patches' last blood draw and echo, and watching him
          destabilize from fighting having to stay still, it seems to be a justified
          concern.) Patches only had one injection (I'm sorry, I don't have the papers
          with the dose with me) and was overnight at the vet's that night, but he
          seemed unaffected when I spent time with him that night before going home
          and the next day, when I took him to and picked him up from the
          cardiologist's. But I think you've said before that Snowball has CRF? The
          half life of butorphanol (at least for humans) is 4-7 hours, but 75% of
          excrement occurs via the kidneys (this via wikipedia, so numbers may not be
          exactly correct but are probably reasonable approximations). So I'm
          wondering if this accounts for it affecting her so strongly. No idea on
          homeopathic remedies, but it's probably worth calling your vet for their or
          a tech's advice; I don't know under what circumstances opiod-antagonists
          (such as naloxone) are given or if it's past the point where it may be
          helpful, but it would counteract the butorphanol. Nausea is listed as a
          common side effect (of butorphanol), so that and the sedation may be
          contributing to her lack of appetite.

          I'm sorry this is wordy - it's late, and I'm mostly just trying to give you
          some feel for what I've picked up in my own experiences in case it's of any
          use to you. I don't know whether I'd feel better or worse about her reaction
          to the butorphanol in light of it being largely eliminated through the
          kidneys - but I do think it's likely that explains why it's still affecting
          her, and is optimistic in the sense that it's probably just taking quite a
          bit longer to clear her system than it should, rather than causing some more
          serious problem.

          I'm so sorry you guys are going through this, and hope that Snowball's
          already feeling a bit better! Her reaction is definitely one to keep in mind
          and tell vets/cardiologists about in the future, though I'm sure you're
          already planning on that. There may be another type of heart-safe sedative
          they can try if the risks of NOT being sedated outweigh the risks of
          sedation, or I'd think they could try a much lower dose for her in the
          future if necessary. You don't mention that the x-rays showed fluid in her
          lungs (to account for the higher respiration rate), so hopefully that at
          least is some good news! Good luck, and keep us updated.

          Jean


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • montgomery_kathy
          Carol, I hope that Snowball will quickly overcome the side effects of the sedative. I have had two kitties who reacted poorly to the stuff. One did similar
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 10, 2009
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            Carol,

            I hope that Snowball will quickly overcome the side effects of the sedative. I have had two kitties who reacted poorly to the stuff. One did similar things like not sleeping and staring and crying. The other pretty much would freak out at noises/touch (this was post an amputation so we were giving him injections at home). After stopping them it took a day or two for him to calm down. Hopefully Snowball will soon process the drugs out. I did not give either of them anything to help as I actually did not think of it. I did inform the vet later to not use that sedative on him again.

            Prayers that the reaction ends soon and that the ultrasound news is not too bad.

            Kathy

            Ranger (HCM), Tenaya and Sierra (tripod, non VAS)
            Angels Subie (2003-2008, tripod 2007, osteosarcoma), Lucas, Zoomer

            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
            >
            > We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball's been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her respiration went up from 28 (which for me is already the high end of normal) to sometimes 36 to 40. She's been stable for a year now, and I guess I should be thankful for that, but I'm worried now.
            >
            > The vet said her xrays showed that her heart is enlarged. It's never been that before.
            >
            > We're going to have the cardiologist do an ultrasound on both of them in the next two weeks, since it's been six months since they had one. I'm afraid to find out any new news now.
            >
            > My question is that once the heart gets enlarged, can it go back to normal again?
            >
            > Thanks for any info on that.
            >
            > On another note, yesterday they had to sedate Snowball to do the xrays, and she's STILL kind of out of it from the sedative. They gave her Butorphanol. She was up all night, just staring off into nothing. It was like she couldn't close her eyes. She wouldn't eat a thing after we came home from the vet, so she hadn't had any food since 4pm yesterday afternoon. This morning I got her to eat a tiny bit, but she's not eating really. Her eyes are still dilated some and she's acting wonky, distracted and disoriented still.
            >
            > Is there anything that can counteract the side effects of the drug? Anyone know of any homeopathic remedies maybe? I'm hesitant to give her another drug to treat a drug side effect, so thought a homeopathic remedy might help. I don't know enough about how to choose the homeopathic remedies to know what to give her. I just thought if anyone's been through this before... the side effects of a sedative thing, and you used homeopathic remedies to deal with it, you could share that info.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Carol and Snowball and the gang
            >
          • Judi Levens
            Carol; here s wishes for Snowball to be feeling better soon...any change today? We re sending positive energy your way...Judi and Max Casa Obelisco Top 10
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 10, 2009
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              Carol; here's wishes for Snowball to be feeling better soon...any change today? We're sending positive energy your way...Judi and Max

              Casa Obelisco
              Top 10 Most Romantic Bed and Breakfast's Worldwide
              ForbesTraveller.com, Feb. 2009

              http://www.forbestraveler.com/resorts-hotels/romantic-bed-and-breakfasts-2008-slide-2.html?thisSpeed=25000







              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              From: montgomery_kathy@...
              Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 23:40:20 +0000
              Subject: [FH] Re: Enlarged heart







              Carol,

              I hope that Snowball will quickly overcome the side effects of the sedative. I have had two kitties who reacted poorly to the stuff. One did similar things like not sleeping and staring and crying. The other pretty much would freak out at noises/touch (this was post an amputation so we were giving him injections at home). After stopping them it took a day or two for him to calm down. Hopefully Snowball will soon process the drugs out. I did not give either of them anything to help as I actually did not think of it. I did inform the vet later to not use that sedative on him again.

              Prayers that the reaction ends soon and that the ultrasound news is not too bad.

              Kathy

              Ranger (HCM), Tenaya and Sierra (tripod, non VAS)
              Angels Subie (2003-2008, tripod 2007, osteosarcoma), Lucas, Zoomer

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
              >
              > We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball's been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her respiration went up from 28 (which for me is already the high end of normal) to sometimes 36 to 40. She's been stable for a year now, and I guess I should be thankful for that, but I'm worried now.
              >
              > The vet said her xrays showed that her heart is enlarged. It's never been that before.
              >
              > We're going to have the cardiologist do an ultrasound on both of them in the next two weeks, since it's been six months since they had one. I'm afraid to find out any new news now.
              >
              > My question is that once the heart gets enlarged, can it go back to normal again?
              >
              > Thanks for any info on that.
              >
              > On another note, yesterday they had to sedate Snowball to do the xrays, and she's STILL kind of out of it from the sedative. They gave her Butorphanol. She was up all night, just staring off into nothing. It was like she couldn't close her eyes. She wouldn't eat a thing after we came home from the vet, so she hadn't had any food since 4pm yesterday afternoon. This morning I got her to eat a tiny bit, but she's not eating really. Her eyes are still dilated some and she's acting wonky, distracted and disoriented still.
              >
              > Is there anything that can counteract the side effects of the drug? Anyone know of any homeopathic remedies maybe? I'm hesitant to give her another drug to treat a drug side effect, so thought a homeopathic remedy might help. I don't know enough about how to choose the homeopathic remedies to know what to give her. I just thought if anyone's been through this before... the side effects of a sedative thing, and you used homeopathic remedies to deal with it, you could share that info.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Carol and Snowball and the gang
              >










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • toomany_kittys
              Hi Carol, Did Snowball get IV fluids or subq fluids while at the vet? This can cause temporary enlargement of the heart. Luigi s heart has been temporarily
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 10, 2009
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                Hi Carol,
                Did Snowball get IV fluids or subq fluids while at the vet? This can cause temporary enlargement of the heart.
                Luigi's heart has been temporarily enlarged in the past when he was given subq fluids at an ER clinic. Lasix injections were given for a day after and xrays revealed the enlargement gone. His resting heart rate is about 190 (which is okay), but was much higher when he was on Norvasc.
                It's good to keep the eyes moist with something like Teargel when they're open for extended periods of time. I used it for my cat Emmy when she was very ill and it worked well.
                I'm sorry I don't know what homeopathics that might work for the disorientation.
                Sending many, many good thoughts to you and Snowball.
                El

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
                >
                > We took Misty and Snowball to the vet yesterday for xrays and bloodwork. Snowball's been having an elevated heart rate (almost 200 all the time) and her respiration went up from 28 (which for me is already the high end of normal) to sometimes 36 to 40. She's been stable for a year now, and I guess I should be thankful for that, but I'm worried now.
                >
                > The vet said her xrays showed that her heart is enlarged. It's never been that before.
                >
                > We're going to have the cardiologist do an ultrasound on both of them in the next two weeks, since it's been six months since they had one. I'm afraid to find out any new news now.
                >
                > My question is that once the heart gets enlarged, can it go back to normal again?
                >
                > Thanks for any info on that.
                >
                > On another note, yesterday they had to sedate Snowball to do the xrays, and she's STILL kind of out of it from the sedative. They gave her Butorphanol. She was up all night, just staring off into nothing. It was like she couldn't close her eyes. She wouldn't eat a thing after we came home from the vet, so she hadn't had any food since 4pm yesterday afternoon. This morning I got her to eat a tiny bit, but she's not eating really. Her eyes are still dilated some and she's acting wonky, distracted and disoriented still.
                >
                > Is there anything that can counteract the side effects of the drug? Anyone know of any homeopathic remedies maybe? I'm hesitant to give her another drug to treat a drug side effect, so thought a homeopathic remedy might help. I don't know enough about how to choose the homeopathic remedies to know what to give her. I just thought if anyone's been through this before... the side effects of a sedative thing, and you used homeopathic remedies to deal with it, you could share that info.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Carol and Snowball and the gang
                >
              • Carol
                hi El, Snowball didn t get fluids at the vets, but we do give her subQ s every night for her CRF. She pretty much absorbed all of the 100mls that we gave her
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 10, 2009
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                  hi El,

                  Snowball didn't get fluids at the vets, but we do give her subQ's every night for her CRF. She pretty much absorbed all of the 100mls that we gave her by the time we went to the vet the next day though.

                  So Luigi's heart rate was higher on Norvasc? That makes me worry, because they want Snowball to take it for her blood pressure, and her heart rate is already up there. Her resting rate is always up around 190 to 200 all the times lately, and her respiration is too high too. This has been for the past week or so, it gets up to 40 breaths a minute, and her normal has always been around 28, been that way for over a year now. I don't know why all of a sudden she's getting elevated respiration and heart rate. I asked the vet about it and he didn't have any suggestions either. My acupuncture vet said that if there's not enough blood pumping, that can make them breathe harder. I don't like that answer either. :-(

                  I'll know more after we see the cardiologist I guess, and I'm almost afraid to find out though.

                  Thanks for the good thoughts.

                  hugs,
                  Carol and Snowball and the gang


                  >>

                  Did Snowball get IV fluids or subq fluids while at the vet? This can cause temporary enlargement of the heart. Luigi's heart has been temporarily enlarged in the past when he was given subq fluids at an ER clinic. Lasix injections were given for a day after and xrays revealed the enlargement gone. His resting heart rate is about 190 (which is okay), but was much higher when he was on Norvasc.
                  >>
                • toomany_kittys
                  Hi Carol, I m so very sorry that Snowball is feeling so unwell. Luigi is in early CRF but cannot have any subq fluids because it affects his heart so
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 11, 2009
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                    Hi Carol,
                    I'm so very sorry that Snowball is feeling so unwell.
                    Luigi is in early CRF but cannot have any subq fluids because it affects his heart so adversely. Even when dehydrated and fluids completely absorbed, his heart still enlarges from it and his lungs and pericardial sac tend to collect it too. His heart size does tend to fluctuate, so that's one of my lesser worries with him.
                    He had awful problems with Norvasc (amlodopine). There isn't any documentation anywhere that my vet could find on adverse affects from Norvasc. His blood pressure was high when measured at the vet so he was put on it and it was a nightmare for almost a year until he was taken off of it. He developed rapid heartbeat while resting, projectile vomiting,severe constipation/motility problems and his heart got much worse - LA much larger and mitral valve regurgitation. It was awful, awful and I almost lost him. He was taken off of it and felt much better almost immediately although motility issues still remain (though much, much better).
                    If you check the archives, Helen's cat also had problems with Norvasc.
                    Among other drugs, Luigi's on Fortekor which does lower bp a little. If Snowball isn't on it, maybe ask your vet about it. It is also given for CRF when there is protein in the urine - just an idea...
                    I'm surprised that the vet would give Snowball sedation with her high respiration rate. Is your vet ABSOLUTELY SURE that there is no fluid in or outside her lungs? That would raise both the resp rate and the bp rate.
                    Thanks for the phosphorous info.
                    I hope the cardiologist appt goes well and that Snowball feels better again soon.
                    El



                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > hi El,
                    >
                    > Snowball didn't get fluids at the vets, but we do give her subQ's every night for her CRF. She pretty much absorbed all of the 100mls that we gave her by the time we went to the vet the next day though.
                    >
                    > So Luigi's heart rate was higher on Norvasc? That makes me worry, because they want Snowball to take it for her blood pressure, and her heart rate is already up there. Her resting rate is always up around 190 to 200 all the times lately, and her respiration is too high too. This has been for the past week or so, it gets up to 40 breaths a minute, and her normal has always been around 28, been that way for over a year now. I don't know why all of a sudden she's getting elevated respiration and heart rate. I asked the vet about it and he didn't have any suggestions either. My acupuncture vet said that if there's not enough blood pumping, that can make them breathe harder. I don't like that answer either. :-(
                    >
                    > I'll know more after we see the cardiologist I guess, and I'm almost afraid to find out though.
                    >
                    > Thanks for the good thoughts.
                    >
                    > hugs,
                    > Carol and Snowball and the gang
                    >
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > Did Snowball get IV fluids or subq fluids while at the vet? This can cause temporary enlargement of the heart. Luigi's heart has been temporarily enlarged in the past when he was given subq fluids at an ER clinic. Lasix injections were given for a day after and xrays revealed the enlargement gone. His resting heart rate is about 190 (which is okay), but was much higher when he was on Norvasc.
                    > >>
                    >
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