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Re: [FH] IMPORTANT INFO: Taking CoQ10 with blood thinners

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  • tabbyandpeachy
    Just was wondering if there was anymore thoughts on COQ 10 and blood thinners? should we continues to give? or should all of us who s babies are on it, should
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 3, 2009
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      Just was wondering if there was anymore thoughts on COQ 10 and blood
      thinners? should we continues to give? or should all of us who's
      babies are on it, should start to whean them off of it?
      Thanks a bunch for all the info -Patty


      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Kathy,
      >
      > I wouldn't stop the CoQ10 if Sangie has been on it for that many
      > years. Since her system is used to whatever the effects are of the
      > CoQ10, her blood would be "normal" for her prior to the heparin
      > treatment. I mean, her blood clotting factors are the "normal"
      that
      > they are "with" her taking CoQ10, way prior to her ever getting
      > heparin. So her heparin dose and frequency was given to her with
      her
      > body "used to" whatever the CoQ10 may contribute as far as clotting
      > factors. It's like someone whe eats a lot of veggies with vitamin
      K
      > in them, things like green leafy veggies and cruciferous (broccoli,
      > etc.). If they've always eaten those things and then have to be
      put
      > on blood thinners, the thinners are based on what their bodies are
      > currently getting. But if they're not used to having those things,
      > they shouldn't "start" eating veggies with vitamin K, because that
      > would introduce more clotting properties to their blood process.
      >
      > This is what I understand about it. I asked my mom's cardiologist
      > about it, and he said to not change what she's on now (which is
      30mg
      > of CoQ10 3 times a day), but just don't increase it or stop it
      > completely. Stopping it completely will throw off the clotting
      > properties of the drug and whatever else is helping her blood
      clot.
      > Like he said don't increase your vitamin E, because that thins the
      > blood too, so do garlic, gingko, ginger, cayenne, which are all
      > supplements that my mom takes.
      >
      > I'm hoping someone else who is more knowledgeable about all this
      > will speak up. I know there are a few members who lurk a lot, who
      > are very knowledgeable about the chemistry of the interaction of
      > things.
      >
      > From the literature that I've read about CoQ10, if you've been on
      it
      > for a while, you should not stop it cold, because the benefits of
      > taking CoQ10, which include strengthening the heart muscle tissue,
      > can be a shock to the muscle when it's not getting that influx of
      > CoQ10 anymore. I don't have any offical information about that,
      > but just what other people have told me they found out and some
      > people who wrote to me last summer, when I had to take Snowball off
      > of it (she was on it for two years). We took her off of all her
      > supplements after she had a seizure in June, all except for her
      > CoQ10, and later I weaned her off of that a couple of months later,
      > because we don't know what, if anything, of her supplements is
      > making her throw up all the time. I don't like that she's not
      > taking it anymore, because she has serious heart issues (HCM, grade
      > 4 murmur, mitral valve regurgitation). But everytime I give it to
      > her she throws up, so it just doesn't agree with her tummy anymore
      I
      > guess.
      >
      > Anyway, if it was me, I wouldn't stop Sangie's CoQ10. From what I
      > can find out, the little clotting properties that the CoQ10 may
      > have, would be what's normal for her since she's been on it for so
      > many years prior to her heparin.
      >
      > hugs,
      > Carol and Snowball and the gang
      >
    • Judi Levens
      I too am unsure of what to do, Max seems to be doing wonderfully right now, and I don t want to change anything! I also wanted to know, is it the lasix which
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2009
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        I too am unsure of what to do, Max seems to be doing wonderfully right now, and I don't want to change anything!
        I also wanted to know, is it the lasix which causes the kidney problems, or just any meds, or is it the enalapril? I think it's the lasix, and since Max doesn't seem to be having any problems I was thinking of reducing his dosage...any comments?
        thanks...Judi and Max



        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.comFrom: oceanbreeze1@...: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:52:21 +0000Subject: Re: [FH] IMPORTANT INFO: Taking CoQ10 with blood thinners



        Just was wondering if there was anymore thoughts on COQ 10 and blood thinners? should we continues to give? or should all of us who's babies are on it, should start to whean them off of it?Thanks a bunch for all the info -Patty--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:>> Hi Kathy,> > I wouldn't stop the CoQ10 if Sangie has been on it for that many > years. Since her system is used to whatever the effects are of the > CoQ10, her blood would be "normal" for her prior to the heparin > treatment. I mean, her blood clotting factors are the "normal" that > they are "with" her taking CoQ10, way prior to her ever getting > heparin. So her heparin dose and frequency was given to her with her > body "used to" whatever the CoQ10 may contribute as far as clotting > factors. It's like someone whe eats a lot of veggies with vitamin K > in them, things like green leafy veggies and cruciferous (broccoli, > etc.). If they've always eaten those things and then have to be put > on blood thinners, the thinners are based on what their bodies are > currently getting. But if they're not used to having those things, > they shouldn't "start" eating veggies with vitamin K, because that > would introduce more clotting properties to their blood process. > > This is what I understand about it. I asked my mom's cardiologist > about it, and he said to not change what she's on now (which is 30mg > of CoQ10 3 times a day), but just don't increase it or stop it > completely. Stopping it completely will throw off the clotting > properties of the drug and whatever else is helping her blood clot. > Like he said don't increase your vitamin E, because that thins the > blood too, so do garlic, gingko, ginger, cayenne, which are all > supplements that my mom takes.> > I'm hoping someone else who is more knowledgeable about all this > will speak up. I know there are a few members who lurk a lot, who > are very knowledgeable about the chemistry of the interaction of > things.> > From the literature that I've read about CoQ10, if you've been on it > for a while, you should not stop it cold, because the benefits of > taking CoQ10, which include strengthening the heart muscle tissue, > can be a shock to the muscle when it's not getting that influx of > CoQ10 anymore. I don't have any offical information about that, > but just what other people have told me they found out and some > people who wrote to me last summer, when I had to take Snowball off > of it (she was on it for two years). We took her off of all her > supplements after she had a seizure in June, all except for her > CoQ10, and later I weaned her off of that a couple of months later, > because we don't know what, if anything, of her supplements is > making her throw up all the time. I don't like that she's not > taking it anymore, because she has serious heart issues (HCM, grade > 4 murmur, mitral valve regurgitation). But everytime I give it to > her she throws up, so it just doesn't agree with her tummy anymore I > guess.> > Anyway, if it was me, I wouldn't stop Sangie's CoQ10. From what I > can find out, the little clotting properties that the CoQ10 may > have, would be what's normal for her since she's been on it for so > many years prior to her heparin.> > hugs,> Carol and Snowball and the gang>






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kathy Wood
        Sangie has been on enalapril for many years & has had no problems w/kidneys. The cardiologist said it actually can have a protective effect on the kidneys
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2009
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          Sangie has been on enalapril for many years & has had no problems
          w/kidneys. The cardiologist said it actually can have a protective
          effect on the kidneys w/many cats. The lasix, which Sangie has been on
          for about 1 year, is what they watch carefully w/her kidneys. Once she
          was out of heart failure, we reduced the lasix dose & she seems to be
          doing fine.
          Best of luck to you & Max.
          Kathy & Sangie-

          Judi Levens wrote:

          >
          > I too am unsure of what to do, Max seems to be doing wonderfully right
          > now, and I don't want to change anything!
          > I also wanted to know, is it the lasix which causes the kidney
          > problems, or just any meds, or is it the enalapril? I think it's the
          > lasix, and since Max doesn't seem to be having any problems I was
          > thinking of reducing his dosage...any comments?
          > thanks...Judi and Max
          >
          > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.comFrom
          > <mailto:feline-heart%40yahoogroups.comFrom>:
          > oceanbreeze1@... <mailto:oceanbreeze1%40gmail.comDate>: Wed,
          > 4 Feb 2009 05:52:21 +0000Subject: Re: [FH] IMPORTANT INFO: Taking
          > CoQ10 with blood thinners
          >
          > Just was wondering if there was anymore thoughts on COQ 10 and blood
          > thinners? should we continues to give? or should all of us who's
          > babies are on it, should start to whean them off of it?Thanks a bunch
          > for all the info -Patty--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:feline-heart%40yahoogroups.com>, "Carol" <carolroars@...>
          > wrote:>> Hi Kathy,> > I wouldn't stop the CoQ10 if Sangie has been on
          > it for that many > years. Since her system is used to whatever the
          > effects are of the > CoQ10, her blood would be "normal" for her prior
          > to the heparin > treatment. I mean, her blood clotting factors are the
          > "normal" that > they are "with" her taking CoQ10, way prior to her
          > ever getting > heparin. So her heparin dose and frequency was given to
          > her with her > body "used to" whatever the CoQ10 may contribute as far
          > as clotting > factors. It's like someone whe eats a lot of veggies
          > with vitamin K > in them, things like green leafy veggies and
          > cruciferous (broccoli, > etc.). If they've always eaten those things
          > and then have to be put > on blood thinners, the thinners are based on
          > what their bodies are > currently getting. But if they're not used to
          > having those things, > they shouldn't "start" eating veggies with
          > vitamin K, because that > would introduce more clotting properties to
          > their blood process. > > This is what I understand about it. I asked
          > my mom's cardiologist > about it, and he said to not change what she's
          > on now (which is 30mg > of CoQ10 3 times a day), but just don't
          > increase it or stop it > completely. Stopping it completely will throw
          > off the clotting > properties of the drug and whatever else is helping
          > her blood clot. > Like he said don't increase your vitamin E, because
          > that thins the > blood too, so do garlic, gingko, ginger, cayenne,
          > which are all > supplements that my mom takes.> > I'm hoping someone
          > else who is more kn! owledgea ble about all this > will speak up. I
          > know there are a few members who lurk a lot, who > are very
          > knowledgeable about the chemistry of the interaction of > things.> >
          > From the literature that I've read about CoQ10, if you've been on it >
          > for a while, you should not stop it cold, because the benefits of >
          > taking CoQ10, which include strengthening the heart muscle tissue, >
          > can be a shock to the muscle when it's not getting that influx of >
          > CoQ10 anymore. I don't have any offical information about that, > but
          > just what other people have told me they found out and some > people
          > who wrote to me last summer, when I had to take Snowball off > of it
          > (she was on it for two years). We took her off of all her >
          > supplements after she had a seizure in June, all except for her >
          > CoQ10, and later I weaned her off of that a couple of months later, >
          > because we don't know what, if anything, of her supplements is >
          > making her throw up all the time. I don't like that she's not > taking
          > it anymore, because she has serious heart issues (HCM, grade > 4
          > murmur, mitral valve regurgitation). But everytime I give it to > her
          > she throws up, so it just doesn't agree with her tummy anymore I >
          > guess.> > Anyway, if it was me, I wouldn't stop Sangie's CoQ10. From
          > what I > can find out, the little clotting properties that the CoQ10
          > may > have, would be what's normal for her since she's been on it for
          > so > many years prior to her heparin.> > hugs,> Carol and Snowball and
          > the gang>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          --
          Kathy Wood
          Executive Program Manager
          UNC-Chapel Hill AGEP
          Department of Chemistry
          Kenan Labs, CB#3290
          p) 919.962.2509
          f) 919.843.2554
          kathy_wood@...

          www.unc.edu/agep
          www.acsbe.org
          www.unc.edu/opt-ed
        • moonpye
          I m not going to change anything right now. Skylar is doing well too, but I am concerned about the Plavix with the Coq10. His cardio knows he is taking the
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2009
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            I'm not going to change anything right now. Skylar is doing well too, but I
            am concerned about the Plavix with the Coq10. His cardio knows he is taking
            the Coq10 and didn't say that he shouldn't. I had him on a lower dose and
            the cardio said 30mg is what he should be on.
            I will have to ask him next visit if he should continue with it and about
            the Plavix. If anyone finds out more info please let us know.


            Judi, after starting Enalapril, the cardio said Skylar must have a renal
            panel to see how his kidneys were...we have not had to start the Lasix, I am
            sure you would watch the kidneys with it too...I would check with the cardio
            about reducing Max's Lasix.


            Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar :)






            >
            > I too am unsure of what to do, Max seems to be doing wonderfully right now,
            > and I don't want to change anything!
            > I also wanted to know, is it the lasix which causes the kidney problems, or
            > just any meds, or is it the enalapril? I think it's the lasix, and since
            > Max doesn't seem to be having any problems I was thinking of reducing his
            > dosage...any comments?
            > thanks...Judi and Max




            >
            >
            >
            > Just was wondering if there was anymore thoughts on COQ 10 and blood
            > thinners? should we continues to give? or should all of us who's babies are
            > on it, should start to whean them off of it?Thanks a bunch for all the info
            > -Patty
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Pat
            Hi All; ... From: Carol ... As we have recently had to deal with this sort of thing I agree with Carol on principle as heparin was
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2009
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              Hi All;

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Carol" <carolroars@...>
              > I wouldn't stop the CoQ10 if Sangie has been on it for that many
              > years. Since her system is used to whatever the effects are of the
              > CoQ10, her blood would be "normal" for her prior to the heparin
              > treatment.

              As we have recently had to deal with this sort of thing I agree with Carol
              on principle as heparin was one drug DH didn't have to modify diet to use.
              Having said that, if anyone wants all the abstracts to do with a supplement,
              there is a search database where you can enter CoQ10 and search the
              responses for relevent information:
              http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php

              Be warned that when I put in CoQ10 as the search criteria I came up with
              1373 records, but I think they go by date so most relevent would be the
              newest ones on the topic.

              Pat and all the boys.
              http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
              http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
            • dshale1
              Our cardiologist said both the enalapril and the lasix can be hard on the kidneys, so he wanted Pye s kidney function tested after two weeks of starting the
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 5, 2009
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                Our cardiologist said both the enalapril and the lasix can be hard on
                the kidneys, so he wanted Pye's kidney function tested after two weeks
                of starting the drugs and then after a month, and every three months
                thereafter. So far her test have all been normal, but she only started
                on the enalapril and fuoremide in Nov.

                Our vet said if there is a problem it would likely show up right away,
                but I wonder if taking these drugs long-terms also strains the kidneys.
                -Susan


                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I too am unsure of what to do, Max seems to be doing wonderfully
                right now, and I don't want to change anything!
                > I also wanted to know, is it the lasix which causes the kidney
                problems, or just any meds, or is it the enalapril? I think it's the
                lasix, and since Max doesn't seem to be having any problems I was
                thinking of reducing his dosage...any comments?
                > thanks...Judi and Max
                >
                >
              • Imbali (Bettina Schmolla)
                Hi Susan and Carol, sorry, I had intended to investigate in this topic much earlier, but then ... ;-) - Nevertheless, it was only postponed, not forgotten! :-)
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 30, 2009
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                  Hi Susan and Carol,

                  sorry, I had intended to investigate in this topic much earlier, but then ... ;-) - Nevertheless, it was only postponed, not forgotten! :-)

                  First I want to say, I am not an expert, "only" a very interested lay person with two heart kitties who might need "blood thinners" (I dislike this expression, as these drugs don't really thin the blood, they simply prevent the forming of clots in it) one day as well ...

                  I did not check the resemblence of CoQ10 and Vitamin K, I "simply believe you" here. ;-) But to me it was especially interesting if Vitamin K (or anything that is structurally related) is really a kind of antidot to *any* kind of "blood thinner" or only to coumarin drugs.

                  I like starting my research in Wikipedia, I must confess, and here it looks like Vitamin K is only relevant for treatments with coumarin drugs:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_k
                  Vitamin K is involved in the carboxylation of certain glutamate residues in proteins to form gamma-carboxyglutamate residues (abbreviated Gla-residues).
                  [...]
                  At this time 14 human proteins with Gla domains have been discovered, and they play key roles in the regulation of three physiological processes:
                  * Blood coagulation: (prothrombin (factor II), factors VII, IX, X,
                  protein C, protein S and protein Z).
                  [...]
                  Warfarin and other coumarin drugs block the action of the Vitamin K epoxide reductase. This results in decreased concentrations of Vitamin K and Vitamin K hydroquinone in the tissues, such that the carboxylation reaction catalyzed by the glutamyl carboxylase is inefficient. This results in the production of clotting factors with inadequate Gla. Without Gla on the amino termini of these factors, they no longer bind stably to the blood vessel endothelium and cannot activate clotting to allow formation of a clot during tissue injury.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin
                  Warfarin inhibits the vitamin K-dependent synthesis of biologically active forms of the calcium-dependent clotting factors II, VII, IX and X, as well as the regulatory factors protein C, protein S, and protein Z.
                  [...]
                  The precursors of these factors require carboxylation of their glutamic acid residues to allow the coagulation factors to bind to phospholipid surfaces inside blood vessels, on the vascular endothelium. The enzyme that carries out the carboxylation of glutamic acid is gamma-glutamyl carboxylase. The carboxylation reaction will proceed only if the carboxylase enzyme is able to convert a reduced form of vitamin K (vitamin K hydroquinone) to vitamin K epoxide at the same time. The vitamin K epoxide is in turn recycled back to vitamin K and vitamin K hydroquinone by another enzyme, the vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKOR). Warfarin inhibits epoxide reductase[7] (specifically the VKORC1 subunit[23][24]), thereby diminishing available vitamin K and vitamin K hydroquinone in the tissues, which inhibits the carboxylation activity of the glutamyl carboxylase. When this occurs, the coagulation factors are no longer carboxylated at certain glutamic acid residues, and are incapable of binding to the endothelial surface of blood vessels, and are thus biologically inactive.
                  (Wow, I had to re-read this several times to get the feeling that I understand it!)
                  As the body's stores of previously-produced active factors degrade (over several days) and are replaced by inactive factors, the anticoagulation effect becomes apparent. The coagulation factors are produced, but have decreased functionality due to undercarboxylation; they are collectively referred to as PIVKAs (proteins induced [by] vitamin K absence/antagonism), and individual coagulation factors as PIVKA-number (e.g. PIVKA-II). The end result of warfarin use, therefore, is to diminish blood clotting in the patient.
                  [...]
                  The effects of warfarin can be reversed with vitamin K, or, when rapid reversal is needed (such as in case of severe bleeding), with prothrombin complex concentrate—which contains only the factors inhibited by warfarin—or fresh frozen plasma (depending upon the clinical indication) in addition to intravenous vitamin K.

                  If I read this I find it even hard to understand how exactly CoQ10 can interfere with coumarin. I find it hard to believe that CoQ10 can be so near to Vitamin K that it can take over the work of Vitamin K in this process of building the correct active forms of the clotting factors. But I think, if it says everywhere that CoQ10 can be a problem because its structure is so near to Vitamin K, then this must be the case, or? But then I would even say: If you are giving your cat CoQ10 and Warfarin now, do NOT reduce the CoQ10 without reducing the Warfarin as well, because otherwise I would fear bleeding, for the balance between Warfarin and Warfarin antidots would not be there anymore and you would perhaps be giving your cat too much Warfarin ... But the same is of course relevant for Vitamin K in the cat food, I think. it might be a good idea to watch your cat carefully if you change the food, for the new food may contain much more or less vitamin K ... :-(

                  > I am interested in this warning as well. Our cat is on Plavix, which
                  > is somewhat more forgiving than warfarin or heparin, but it does say
                  > in the warnings that CoQ10 may affect Plavix' effectiveness.

                  And now this is something that I don't understand: After reading the explanation of vitamin K and Warfarin in Wikipedia (by the way I researched it in German first, much easier for me ;-) and then looked it up in English as well), I don't really understand how CoQ10 could interfere at all with a drug that does not work like a coumarin, inhititing the synthesis of biologically active forms of some calcium-dependent clotting factors.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plavix
                  Clopidogrel is a pro-drug whose action may be related to adenosine diphosphate (ADP) receptor on platelet cell membranes. The specific subtype of ADP receptor that clopidogrel irreversibly inhibits is P2Y12 and is important in platelet aggregation and the cross-linking of platelets by fibrin. The blockade of this receptor inhibits platelet aggregation by blocking activation of the glycoprotein IIb/IIIa pathway. The IIb/IIIa complex functions as a receptor mainly for fibrinogen and vitronectin but also for fibronectin and von Willebrand factor. Activation of this receptor complex is the "final common pathway" for platelet aggregation, and is important in platelet aggregation, the cross-linking of platelets by fibrin.

                  To me this looks like a mechanism very different from the one in coumarins. So how can CoQ10 interfere with this drug? I reas it but have difficulties understanding how ...

                  > I have decided to gradually reduce the amount of CoQ10 we have been
                  > giving--

                  Hmmmmm, *if* CoQ10 really interferes with plavix and your cat is on its personal, optimal dose of Plavix now, then I would probably rather not dare change anything ... (Sorry, I know that these thoughts of mine are very late now ...)


                  By the way, now I was curious and looked up Aspirin as well:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin
                  Aspirin's ability to suppress the production of prostaglandins and thromboxanes is due to its irreversible inactivation of the cyclooxygenase (COX) enzyme. Cyclooxygenase is required for prostaglandin and thromboxane synthesis. Aspirin acts as an acetylating agent where an acetyl group is covalently attached to a serine residue in the active site of the COX enzyme.
                  [...]
                  Low-dose, long-term aspirin use irreversibly blocks the formation of thromboxane A2 in platelets, producing an inhibitory effect on platelet aggregation.

                  Does anyone understand, how CoQ10 could interfere in this process ???


                  I haven't tried now to find out anything about Nattokinase, I remember my last research where I wasn't really able to find out how *exactly* Nattokinase prevents clotting. And if I don't know that, I can't know which other drugs / supplements could interfere with the anti-clotting effect of Nattokinase either ... :-(


                  Hm, as I said in the beginning, I'm not an expert, so there might be wrong conclusions in my mail here ... But to me it looks very much like CoQ10 can hardly interfere with other drugs than coumarin. And I would not reduce CoQ10 in the therapy of a cat getting Warfarin without reducing Warfarin as well or at least watching my cat very, very carefully afterwards ...


                  Sorry, this has become very long now ... Typically me ... ;-)

                  Greetings
                  Bettina with 2 1/2 heart kitties
                  and more of them without heart problems
                  http://www.pristine-paws.de
                • Carol
                  hi Bettina, Thank you so much for doing all this research. I have to admit, I don t understand most of it though. What I m gathering is that the interaction
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 31, 2009
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                    hi Bettina,

                    Thank you so much for doing all this research. I have to admit, I don't understand most of it though. What I'm gathering is that the interaction of CoQ10 having vitamin K properties may only be with Coumadin/Warfarin. I've searched and searched so much about this because my mom takes the Coumadin and my cats take CoQ10 and I just don't know for sure what the answers are to this.

                    I agree with you about changing food and/or supplements and meds, to always do it very slowly and with the guidance of the vet. Blood thinning and clotting isn't something you want to mess around with.

                    What I've done with my mom and the cats is, since they were ALREADY taking CoQ10 and have for years, then were introduced to the blood thinners, I figure that what the docs based their blood thinner dose on was already taking into consideration the CoQ10 in their system, since all the blood tests were done while they were already on CoQ10.

                    What I probably wouldn't do, without doing it slowly and under the direct supervision from a qualified cardiologist, is add CoQ10 to a cat that already has been on blood thinners for a long time.

                    Now beginning CoQ10 simultaneously with blood thinners...that I'm not sure about either.

                    I'd really like to find out for sure if this Vitamin K thing with the CoQ10 only applies to Coumadin/Warfarin, or if it applies to all blood thinners.

                    I think that the Vitamin K activity, however much there is, in CoQ10 can't be that much that it would interfere with the blood thinners we give our cats, especially the doses we give. We don't give mega doses of CoQ10, in my opinion, to make any difference.

                    But then again, I just don't know for sure.

                    This is going to be an ongoing subject I think. I really appreciate the research you did Bettina. I know how long that must have taken. I'm going to put the info as a file in our "Files" section for everyone to access easily.

                    hugs,
                    Carol and Snowball and the gang
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