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Re:Afraid to keep giving Prenisolone to Mama - any ideas?

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  • Elegantzebra
    Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets very sick
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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      Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets very sick with it - since 7 years ago. I refuse to give steroids. If you decide not give her - stop it slowly - not all at once, cut down over maybe 3 days or so. If you just started it, it may be OK to just stop. JMO

      While I'm here, I would like to question - why is that we all have to join here on a group to help get our kitties well. Don't we pay vets to know what they are doing. I have had to research everything on my cats, vets couldn't even diagnose my Aby with Pemphigus - I had to do it online. I have the same problems with all vets, none of them "know" what they are doing, they are "experimenting" on our beloved cats. Why do we have to ask them "don't you think this or this should be given?" and they say yes, that's a good idea. Why didn't the have the good idea, they are the vet. Everything a vet tells me I look it up online. I talked to at least 8 vets regarding my exotic with congenital heart problems - no same answers - all guesses!! We should not have to learn to be a vet online to treat our animals (horses as well, no vet can tell me what's wrong with my mare's chronic diarrhea). What are we paying them for anyway. We can just come here, talk to each other, "tell" the vet here's what I need, etc., etc. OK, end of rant.
      Faye

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    • Carol
      Boy Faye... I could have written this myself! After so many years of my animals being sick and ME being the one to practically diagnose and find treatments
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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        Boy Faye... I could have written this myself! After so many years
        of my animals being sick and ME being the one to practically
        diagnose and find treatments for them, I've become so untrusting of
        anything my vet says. Over the years I've gone to just about every
        vet in my area and even driven way out of it and still I always feel
        like I'm left with this empty pit in my stomach about them.

        I had one vet years ago who I just loved. She would go out of her
        way to look things up for me if I had questions she couldn't answer.
        I do a lot of holistic stuff with my guys, and she never poo-pood
        any of it, but rather she diligently wrote everything down in my
        guys' records that I was doing and on her own time she would look up
        what those things were. She left her practice to have a family, and
        we thought she'd be back after her kids were older, but it's been 7
        years and she's still not practicing anymore. We miss her!

        Since then I've shuffled back and forth from vet to vet and am
        always disappointed. Our current vet, and keep in mind this is
        the "best" one we've found so far, botched the euthanasia of one of
        my kitties in 2006. I swore I'd never use him again, but when the
        time comes and I have to take one of the guys to the vet, I just
        can't bear the thought of trying to get a relationship going with
        another new one. Then this past June Snowball had a horrible
        seizure caused from a combination of drugs he gave her. Again, I
        wanted to run and never go back, but with Snowball in the stages
        she's in with her health, I hesitate to try to take her somewhere
        else and start over again. So now, I just make sure that I'm the
        one who does all the research for EVERYTHING for them first,
        especially Snowball, before I take her in to see him for anything.
        I figure all I have my vet for is it's a place where I can get her
        labs done, and any other kind of figuring out her health problems
        and what kind of care she needs is up to me. :-(

        I keep hoping one day to have a vet that I can rely on. I really do
        envy those folks who have these great vets they talk about. If I
        ever moved, the number one thing on my list for where I'd be willing
        to live is if there was a good vet there!

        Okay..end of my rant now!

        hugs,
        Carol and Snowball and the gang
      • Elegantzebra
        My sincere apologies - the product I was refereing to is Standard Process Feline Cardiac Support: The toxic ingredients are alfalfa, kelp. I also question
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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          My sincere apologies - the product I was refereing to is Standard Process
          Feline Cardiac Support:
          The toxic ingredients are alfalfa, kelp. I also question several other
          ingredients. The product by Veri Science is OK.
          Here is the list of the SP product:

          Supplement Facts
          Ingredients: Bovine orchic CytosolT extract, bovine adrenal, bovine heart
          PMGT extract, bovine liver, Tillandsia usneoides, alfalfa juice, bovine and
          ovine spleen, L-carnitine, bovine heart CytosolT extract, buckwheat leaf
          juice and seed, bovine kidney, Emblica officinalis, rice bran, pea vine
          juice, nutritional yeast, Crataegus oxyacantha, ribonucleic acid, kelp,
          bovine adrenal CytosolT extract, wheat germ oil, oat flour, and bone meal.

          Sorry, I was in a hurry and got the two names confused.

          Faye



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        • Carol
          I looked up all the ingredients as much as I could find and here s some info. Personally, I don t like this supplement... too many ingredients and no
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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            I looked up all the ingredients as much as I could find and here's
            some info. Personally, I don't like this supplement... too many
            ingredients and no explanation as to why they're in there. They make
            a plain glandular in their "human" line called Cardiotrophin PMG,
            which is just Bovine heart. I might use that one instead.

            This is what Standard Process says about it's ingredients:

            http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=346
            Unique Product Attributes: The ingredients in Feline Cardiac Support
            work together to promote the healthy functioning of the feline heart.

            Rice bran, pea vine, buckwheat, and alfalfa juice:
            -Whole vitamin complexes and chelated minerals complement and enhance
            the beneficial effects of the tissue factors
            -Whole food based vitamin E complex offers strong antioxidant
            protection

            Bovine heart, liver, and kidney; and bovine and ovine spleen:
            -Support corresponding tissues in the feline

            Heart Protomorphogen™ extracts; and heart and adrenal Cytosol™
            extracts:
            Standard Process' unique glandular extracts
            -Support the internal nutritional environment and help maintain
            normal myocardial cell function

            Emblica officinalis (Indian gooseberry) and Crataegus oxyacantha
            (Hawthorn):
            -Support heart health at the cellular level

            >>
            So, all of these ingredients I'm assuming are the glandulars.
            >>

            Bovine orchic CytosolT extract,
            bovine adrenal,
            bovine heart PMGT extract,
            bovine liver,
            bovine and ovine spleen,
            bovine heart CytosolT extract,
            bovine kidney,
            bovine adrenal CytosolT extract,

            >>
            Then there's the L-carnitine, hawthorn extract and bone meal.
            >>

            L-carnitine
            Crataegus oxyacantha (hawthorn)
            bone meal

            >>
            It looks like the Spanish moss, buckwheat and Indian gooseberry are
            safe for cats from what I found. The Spanish moss possibly is in
            there for it's blood glucose properties, which I'm not sure how that
            relates to heart kitties. The buckwheat is in there because it
            contains Rutin. The Indian gooseberry for it's antioxidant
            properties.
            >>

            Tillandsia usneoides (Spanish moss)
            http://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=653
            extracts of Spanish Moss (Tillandsia usneoides), a non-parasitic
            epiphyte in the pineapple family, have been found in a few studies to
            reduce blood glucose in laboratory animals. The compound primarily
            responsible is called HMG, short for 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaric acid.
            HMG is now featured as an ingredient in a few herbal diabetic
            supplements.

            buckwheat leaf juice and seed
            http://www.becomehealthynow.com/supps/cyruta.shtml
            Buckwheat contains rutin, a powerful anti-oxidant
            Buckwheat contains rutin, a phytochemical of the flavonoid group and
            a powerful anti-oxidant, that protects the body against a variety of
            damaging oxidative toxins, especially those released by the body from
            mineral-fiber irritation. By itself, rutin is a more potent free
            radical quencher than either vitamin C or vitamin E. Synergistically,
            the three work together as an even stronger anti-oxidant powerhouse.*

            Emblica officinalis (Indian gooseberry)
            http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=351
            A strong antioxidant and immune building vitamin.

            >>
            I still don't know why they have to put alfalfa in there, and unless
            it's a tiny amount, I don't like that it's in there.
            >>

            alfalfa juice
            http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php
            Alfalfa powder, alfalfa sprouts
            Alfalfa, known also as lucerne (legume), is widely used as a staple
            fodder plant for livestock, and has application in human health as
            tonic, antifungal, laxative, diuretic, detoxifier, digestive,
            nutritive, and anti-arthritic. However, when referencing veterinary
            literature it is listed as a toxic plant for cats. Alfalfa contains
            cyanide producing compounds (cyanogenic glycosides) which will only
            be destroyed by adequate cooking. In humans, these toxic substances
            are detoxified by the liver when ingested in small quantities, but in
            the much smaller cat alfalfa frequently cause vomiting, abdominal
            pain and/or diarrhea. Raw plant matter of any kind, including alfalfa
            sprouts and alfalfa powder, will lead to severe indigestion in the
            cat, who is not equipped to properly digest raw plant matter as a
            carnivore.

            Alone the fact that alfalfa alkalizes the body makes it a dangerous
            substance to use in the cat's diet. Cats depend on a slightly acidic
            acid-base balance; a high body pH - as induced with the use of
            alfalfa - will put the cat at greater risk of developing urinary
            crystals.

            >>
            We all know that kelp, which contains iodine, isn't good for cats,
            since iodine stimulates the thyroid and that's not good for
            hyperthyroid cats or any cats for that matter.
            >>

            Kelp

            >>
            The rest of these ingredients, aren't toxic to cats, but Standard
            Process doesn't really go into why they're in the formulas.
            >>

            rice bran
            pea vine juice
            nutritional yeast
            ribonucleic acid
            wheat germ oil
            oat flour

            >>
            Their "human" supplement, Cardiotrophin PMG, is just a glandular with
            no added ingredients.
            >>

            Cardiotrophin PMG
            http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?
            ID=33
            Each tablet supplies 120 mg bovine heart PMG™ extract.
            Proprietary Blend: 185 mg
            Bovine heart PMG™ extract and magnesium citrate.
            Other Ingredients: Calcium lactate, cellulose, and calcium stearate.

            I've tried to contact Standard Process in the past and they've not
            been very forthcoming as to their reasons why they insist on putting
            alfalfa and kelp in their formulas. They're in just about all of
            them too.

            I think I'd probably stick to a straight glandular. If you Google the
            words - heart glandular - you'll come up with a lot of sites that
            have other glandulars besides Standard Process.

            If anyone else knows more about any of these SP ingredients, please
            chime in.

            Hope this helps.

            Carol and Snowball and the gang
          • Carol
            Figures there d be one link that didn t go in right. Here s the link to the Cardiotrophin. http://tinyurl.com/3d5645 Carol and Snowball and the gang
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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              Figures there'd be one link that didn't go in right. Here's the link
              to the Cardiotrophin. http://tinyurl.com/3d5645

              Carol and Snowball and the gang
            • Pat
              Hi Faye; ... From: Elegantzebra ... I must presume, here, that you have never had to follow a specific protocol set up by the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                Hi Faye;

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Elegantzebra" <elegantzebra@...>
                > Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to
                > help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets
                > very sick with it - >since 7 years ago. I refuse to give steroids. If
                > you decide not give her - stop it slowly - not all at once, cut down over
                > maybe 3 days or so. If you just started it, >it may be OK to just stop.
                > JMO

                I must presume, here, that you have never had to follow a specific
                "protocol" set up by the experts in the oncology field. I had posted Max's
                site to show two specific protocols, and on that page I noted that when we
                changed one item in one of the protocols, Max ended up succombing to
                paralysis, which meant he was then on a slippery slope he could not recover.

                When one is dealing with cancer it is a very different proposition to drop
                even one drug given specifically along with other drugs to have a certain
                effect on cancerous cells, which is much different than the regular masking
                process that happens. As I stated in a previous posting, we made the choice
                you are suggesting in that we dropped the prednisone, for the same reasons,
                and Max's cancer came back whereas another cat that has stayed with the
                correct protocol still hasn't come out of remission.

                Pat and all the boys.
                http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
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