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Re: [FH] Afraid to keep giving Prenisolone to Mama - any ideas?

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  • gllhmjnny
    Prednisolone is preferred over prednisone for cats. Prednisone has to be converted by the liver to prednisolone and this conversion for cats is not always
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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      Prednisolone is preferred over prednisone for cats. Prednisone has
      to be converted by the liver to prednisolone and this conversion for
      cats is not always effective. On the IBD list we have had many
      members have their cats switched from prednisone to prednisolone at
      the advice of the list (because their cats were not doing well), and
      had much better results with prednisolone. I also know of people
      using prednisolone as part of standard chemo protocol.

      http://www.vetcontact.com/dermatology/art.php?a=640&t=&f=18

      Jenny


      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <Pat.Creighton@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Trish;
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "onewildpinkrose" <onewildpinkrose@...>
      > >When
      > > she came home after a week she had one solid poop and then began
      the
      > > water diarrhea.
      >
      > When we brought Pepper, (http://pat-fearlessfosdick.blogspot.com/),
      home to
      > deal with his supposed "IBD", it turned out that he has a big hole
      in his
      > heart and that the fluids just happen to be spilling into the GIT
      rather
      > than somewhere like the chest cavity, which has caused major need
      for
      > control of diarrhea, and I really sympathize with what you are
      going
      > through. We feel this is a bonus in Pepper's case as he isn't
      developing
      > lung or chest issues yet. Before we managed to eliminate the
      diarrhea,
      > (took about 9 months to find the right solution), his growth was
      stunted by
      > the fact that nutrients were running through his system too quickly
      for
      > absorption. As Pepper's heart is not expected to maintain him if
      he is full
      > sized, this is probably what is keeping him going, and not causing
      cardiac
      > complications to date.
      >
      > >The vet said that she can "hear" the
      > > heart enough to tell that is it most likely unchanged and agreed
      with
      > > me to start her on Lukeran (chemo) because she is leaning more
      towards
      > > Lymphoma than a heart issue.
      >
      > You may want to bolster the WBC count by adding organ meats in a
      higher
      > proportion to the diet. That was what worked for Maxamillion who
      was very
      > sensitive to chemo drugs. A lot of his story is at:
      > http://maxandrenallymphosarcoma.blogspot.com/
      >
      > >My
      > > concern here is the steroid. I don't want to give it to her.
      >
      > The dosage given for chemo maintenance is a low dose, which isn't
      supposed
      > to interfere with heart performance. Max's dose was low enough
      that the
      > prednisone didn't interfere with boosting white blood cells when
      needed and
      > steroids are also hard on the immune system. What is your
      veterinarian
      > saying about your concerns here? How often have they treated
      cancer
      > patients?
      >
      > >I know it's for inflammation -
      >
      > Not just inflammation. It is also used as a maintenance drug to
      keep
      > lymphoma at bay. While we managed to buy Max another five good
      years after
      > the first chemo treatments, we were concerned about the prednisone,
      too, as
      > we also have a diabetic cat where prednisone probably triggered his
      illness.
      > We decided to drop the prednisone and our boy Max developed
      lymphoma
      > elsewhere in the system and it came back as large cell, meaning
      fast growing
      > rather than slow, so we were not able to keep it at bay for long
      any more.
      > Lymphoma travels around in the lymph fluids even if you do put your
      cat into
      > remission, so may come back at any time. Another person who had a
      cat with
      > exactly the same lymphoma as Max still has her cat in remission to
      my
      > knowledge, just with the use of prednisone, and the cat is not
      developing
      > prednisone related side effects. There are also studies out there
      showing
      > how prednisone supports heart related procedures, but I don't know
      if the
      > cases I saw relate to your specific situation:
      > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?
      artid=1352608&blobtype=pdf
      > for one.
      >
      > >- then I will consider starting the
      > > Prednisolone again.
      >
      > If your cat is being given prednisolone then your vet is giving a
      weaker
      > product than prednisone.
      >
      > >She has had two doses... do I have to taper her
      > > off still?
      >
      > If you insist on stopping it then yes it needs to be tapered off
      slowly. As
      > it is an integral part of a specific "protocol" for lymphoma, I
      definitely
      > wouldn't, if in your position, stop using whatever the vet is
      recommending.
      >
      > >She is pooping pretty solid though
      > > she is on a wee wee pad and I clean her.
      >
      > First we had Pro Pectalin that worked quite well to create 'formed'
      stools
      > for Pepper, and when we changed veterinarians the new one asked if
      we had
      > tried FortiFlora. Since trying that, we have never looked back as
      long as
      > we maintain the daily dose, and I can't recommend it highly enough
      for this
      > type of problem. Pepper now gives us little strings of 'poop'
      pearls twice
      > a day, and that is it. FortiFlora worked very quickly, too.
      >
      > For maintaining the WBC count, we used Fancy Feast Liver and
      Chicken for the
      > liver content, once per day.
      >
      > Pat and all the boys.
      > http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
      > http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
      >
    • Carol
      I think the reason Trish, and all of us, are afraid of giving the Prednisone or Prednisolone (and other steroids) is because of the possibility of it causing
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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        I think the reason Trish, and all of us, are afraid of giving the
        Prednisone or Prednisolone (and other steroids) is because of the
        possibility of it causing fluid retention and CHF. Is one steroid
        less likely to do that than the other? Is the Budesonide less a risk
        with that regard?

        My angel Sweetie was on Prednisolone for IBD (she was also CRF and
        had a heart murmur, not even HCM at that point) and it caused her to
        go into congestive heart failure from the fluid retention. Ever
        since she was never the same again and once she had that first bout
        of CHF, it was so hard to balance that with her CRF treatments.
        Because of that, I'm afraid to ever give it to my guys again, and our
        vet wants me to give it to Snowball for her IBD, but because of her
        heart issues, I'm not going that route again.

        Is there anything else Trish can use for Mama for the lymphoma
        treatment protocol that any of you know of, that doesn't have the
        effect of the fluid retention issues?

        hugs,
        Carol and Snowball and the gang


        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "gllhmjnny" <tjgillham@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Prednisolone is preferred over prednisone for cats. Prednisone has
        > to be converted by the liver to prednisolone and this conversion
        for
        > cats is not always effective.
      • Elegantzebra
        Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets very sick
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets very sick with it - since 7 years ago. I refuse to give steroids. If you decide not give her - stop it slowly - not all at once, cut down over maybe 3 days or so. If you just started it, it may be OK to just stop. JMO

          While I'm here, I would like to question - why is that we all have to join here on a group to help get our kitties well. Don't we pay vets to know what they are doing. I have had to research everything on my cats, vets couldn't even diagnose my Aby with Pemphigus - I had to do it online. I have the same problems with all vets, none of them "know" what they are doing, they are "experimenting" on our beloved cats. Why do we have to ask them "don't you think this or this should be given?" and they say yes, that's a good idea. Why didn't the have the good idea, they are the vet. Everything a vet tells me I look it up online. I talked to at least 8 vets regarding my exotic with congenital heart problems - no same answers - all guesses!! We should not have to learn to be a vet online to treat our animals (horses as well, no vet can tell me what's wrong with my mare's chronic diarrhea). What are we paying them for anyway. We can just come here, talk to each other, "tell" the vet here's what I need, etc., etc. OK, end of rant.
          Faye

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Carol
          Boy Faye... I could have written this myself! After so many years of my animals being sick and ME being the one to practically diagnose and find treatments
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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            Boy Faye... I could have written this myself! After so many years
            of my animals being sick and ME being the one to practically
            diagnose and find treatments for them, I've become so untrusting of
            anything my vet says. Over the years I've gone to just about every
            vet in my area and even driven way out of it and still I always feel
            like I'm left with this empty pit in my stomach about them.

            I had one vet years ago who I just loved. She would go out of her
            way to look things up for me if I had questions she couldn't answer.
            I do a lot of holistic stuff with my guys, and she never poo-pood
            any of it, but rather she diligently wrote everything down in my
            guys' records that I was doing and on her own time she would look up
            what those things were. She left her practice to have a family, and
            we thought she'd be back after her kids were older, but it's been 7
            years and she's still not practicing anymore. We miss her!

            Since then I've shuffled back and forth from vet to vet and am
            always disappointed. Our current vet, and keep in mind this is
            the "best" one we've found so far, botched the euthanasia of one of
            my kitties in 2006. I swore I'd never use him again, but when the
            time comes and I have to take one of the guys to the vet, I just
            can't bear the thought of trying to get a relationship going with
            another new one. Then this past June Snowball had a horrible
            seizure caused from a combination of drugs he gave her. Again, I
            wanted to run and never go back, but with Snowball in the stages
            she's in with her health, I hesitate to try to take her somewhere
            else and start over again. So now, I just make sure that I'm the
            one who does all the research for EVERYTHING for them first,
            especially Snowball, before I take her in to see him for anything.
            I figure all I have my vet for is it's a place where I can get her
            labs done, and any other kind of figuring out her health problems
            and what kind of care she needs is up to me. :-(

            I keep hoping one day to have a vet that I can rely on. I really do
            envy those folks who have these great vets they talk about. If I
            ever moved, the number one thing on my list for where I'd be willing
            to live is if there was a good vet there!

            Okay..end of my rant now!

            hugs,
            Carol and Snowball and the gang
          • Elegantzebra
            My sincere apologies - the product I was refereing to is Standard Process Feline Cardiac Support: The toxic ingredients are alfalfa, kelp. I also question
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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              My sincere apologies - the product I was refereing to is Standard Process
              Feline Cardiac Support:
              The toxic ingredients are alfalfa, kelp. I also question several other
              ingredients. The product by Veri Science is OK.
              Here is the list of the SP product:

              Supplement Facts
              Ingredients: Bovine orchic CytosolT extract, bovine adrenal, bovine heart
              PMGT extract, bovine liver, Tillandsia usneoides, alfalfa juice, bovine and
              ovine spleen, L-carnitine, bovine heart CytosolT extract, buckwheat leaf
              juice and seed, bovine kidney, Emblica officinalis, rice bran, pea vine
              juice, nutritional yeast, Crataegus oxyacantha, ribonucleic acid, kelp,
              bovine adrenal CytosolT extract, wheat germ oil, oat flour, and bone meal.

              Sorry, I was in a hurry and got the two names confused.

              Faye



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carol
              I looked up all the ingredients as much as I could find and here s some info. Personally, I don t like this supplement... too many ingredients and no
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                I looked up all the ingredients as much as I could find and here's
                some info. Personally, I don't like this supplement... too many
                ingredients and no explanation as to why they're in there. They make
                a plain glandular in their "human" line called Cardiotrophin PMG,
                which is just Bovine heart. I might use that one instead.

                This is what Standard Process says about it's ingredients:

                http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=346
                Unique Product Attributes: The ingredients in Feline Cardiac Support
                work together to promote the healthy functioning of the feline heart.

                Rice bran, pea vine, buckwheat, and alfalfa juice:
                -Whole vitamin complexes and chelated minerals complement and enhance
                the beneficial effects of the tissue factors
                -Whole food based vitamin E complex offers strong antioxidant
                protection

                Bovine heart, liver, and kidney; and bovine and ovine spleen:
                -Support corresponding tissues in the feline

                Heart Protomorphogen™ extracts; and heart and adrenal Cytosol™
                extracts:
                Standard Process' unique glandular extracts
                -Support the internal nutritional environment and help maintain
                normal myocardial cell function

                Emblica officinalis (Indian gooseberry) and Crataegus oxyacantha
                (Hawthorn):
                -Support heart health at the cellular level

                >>
                So, all of these ingredients I'm assuming are the glandulars.
                >>

                Bovine orchic CytosolT extract,
                bovine adrenal,
                bovine heart PMGT extract,
                bovine liver,
                bovine and ovine spleen,
                bovine heart CytosolT extract,
                bovine kidney,
                bovine adrenal CytosolT extract,

                >>
                Then there's the L-carnitine, hawthorn extract and bone meal.
                >>

                L-carnitine
                Crataegus oxyacantha (hawthorn)
                bone meal

                >>
                It looks like the Spanish moss, buckwheat and Indian gooseberry are
                safe for cats from what I found. The Spanish moss possibly is in
                there for it's blood glucose properties, which I'm not sure how that
                relates to heart kitties. The buckwheat is in there because it
                contains Rutin. The Indian gooseberry for it's antioxidant
                properties.
                >>

                Tillandsia usneoides (Spanish moss)
                http://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=653
                extracts of Spanish Moss (Tillandsia usneoides), a non-parasitic
                epiphyte in the pineapple family, have been found in a few studies to
                reduce blood glucose in laboratory animals. The compound primarily
                responsible is called HMG, short for 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaric acid.
                HMG is now featured as an ingredient in a few herbal diabetic
                supplements.

                buckwheat leaf juice and seed
                http://www.becomehealthynow.com/supps/cyruta.shtml
                Buckwheat contains rutin, a powerful anti-oxidant
                Buckwheat contains rutin, a phytochemical of the flavonoid group and
                a powerful anti-oxidant, that protects the body against a variety of
                damaging oxidative toxins, especially those released by the body from
                mineral-fiber irritation. By itself, rutin is a more potent free
                radical quencher than either vitamin C or vitamin E. Synergistically,
                the three work together as an even stronger anti-oxidant powerhouse.*

                Emblica officinalis (Indian gooseberry)
                http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=351
                A strong antioxidant and immune building vitamin.

                >>
                I still don't know why they have to put alfalfa in there, and unless
                it's a tiny amount, I don't like that it's in there.
                >>

                alfalfa juice
                http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php
                Alfalfa powder, alfalfa sprouts
                Alfalfa, known also as lucerne (legume), is widely used as a staple
                fodder plant for livestock, and has application in human health as
                tonic, antifungal, laxative, diuretic, detoxifier, digestive,
                nutritive, and anti-arthritic. However, when referencing veterinary
                literature it is listed as a toxic plant for cats. Alfalfa contains
                cyanide producing compounds (cyanogenic glycosides) which will only
                be destroyed by adequate cooking. In humans, these toxic substances
                are detoxified by the liver when ingested in small quantities, but in
                the much smaller cat alfalfa frequently cause vomiting, abdominal
                pain and/or diarrhea. Raw plant matter of any kind, including alfalfa
                sprouts and alfalfa powder, will lead to severe indigestion in the
                cat, who is not equipped to properly digest raw plant matter as a
                carnivore.

                Alone the fact that alfalfa alkalizes the body makes it a dangerous
                substance to use in the cat's diet. Cats depend on a slightly acidic
                acid-base balance; a high body pH - as induced with the use of
                alfalfa - will put the cat at greater risk of developing urinary
                crystals.

                >>
                We all know that kelp, which contains iodine, isn't good for cats,
                since iodine stimulates the thyroid and that's not good for
                hyperthyroid cats or any cats for that matter.
                >>

                Kelp

                >>
                The rest of these ingredients, aren't toxic to cats, but Standard
                Process doesn't really go into why they're in the formulas.
                >>

                rice bran
                pea vine juice
                nutritional yeast
                ribonucleic acid
                wheat germ oil
                oat flour

                >>
                Their "human" supplement, Cardiotrophin PMG, is just a glandular with
                no added ingredients.
                >>

                Cardiotrophin PMG
                http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?
                ID=33
                Each tablet supplies 120 mg bovine heart PMG™ extract.
                Proprietary Blend: 185 mg
                Bovine heart PMG™ extract and magnesium citrate.
                Other Ingredients: Calcium lactate, cellulose, and calcium stearate.

                I've tried to contact Standard Process in the past and they've not
                been very forthcoming as to their reasons why they insist on putting
                alfalfa and kelp in their formulas. They're in just about all of
                them too.

                I think I'd probably stick to a straight glandular. If you Google the
                words - heart glandular - you'll come up with a lot of sites that
                have other glandulars besides Standard Process.

                If anyone else knows more about any of these SP ingredients, please
                chime in.

                Hope this helps.

                Carol and Snowball and the gang
              • Carol
                Figures there d be one link that didn t go in right. Here s the link to the Cardiotrophin. http://tinyurl.com/3d5645 Carol and Snowball and the gang
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                  Figures there'd be one link that didn't go in right. Here's the link
                  to the Cardiotrophin. http://tinyurl.com/3d5645

                  Carol and Snowball and the gang
                • Pat
                  Hi Faye; ... From: Elegantzebra ... I must presume, here, that you have never had to follow a specific protocol set up by the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                    Hi Faye;

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Elegantzebra" <elegantzebra@...>
                    > Personally, if it were my cat I would stop the Pred - it does nothing to
                    > help, just covers up symptoms. My cat is highly allergic to it and gets
                    > very sick with it - >since 7 years ago. I refuse to give steroids. If
                    > you decide not give her - stop it slowly - not all at once, cut down over
                    > maybe 3 days or so. If you just started it, >it may be OK to just stop.
                    > JMO

                    I must presume, here, that you have never had to follow a specific
                    "protocol" set up by the experts in the oncology field. I had posted Max's
                    site to show two specific protocols, and on that page I noted that when we
                    changed one item in one of the protocols, Max ended up succombing to
                    paralysis, which meant he was then on a slippery slope he could not recover.

                    When one is dealing with cancer it is a very different proposition to drop
                    even one drug given specifically along with other drugs to have a certain
                    effect on cancerous cells, which is much different than the regular masking
                    process that happens. As I stated in a previous posting, we made the choice
                    you are suggesting in that we dropped the prednisone, for the same reasons,
                    and Max's cancer came back whereas another cat that has stayed with the
                    correct protocol still hasn't come out of remission.

                    Pat and all the boys.
                    http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
                    http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/
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