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RE: [feline-heart] Feeling Down

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  • Mike & Linda Irrgang
    hi z., i m sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i m sure you have done all the right things and you really can t look at the vet s absence as a
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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      hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm sure you
      have done all the right things and you really can't look at the vet's
      absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens for the
      best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has prescribed
      electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be related to
      her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just don't
      know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know you pull
      up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in plaace
      they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up positin it
      means they are dehydrated...

      is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to if there
      was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any available
      person....

      recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i thought of
      big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds and what a
      hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now every
      minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a hard decision
      to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
      additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time when i have
      to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really meeting my
      need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what is best
      for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here recently "our
      babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words really
      touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up these
      tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's sthoughts and
      actions)....

      and now i just got back from california from visiting my son/grandson and
      during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired compared to
      them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the grandson, i'm
      downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who has had a
      really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and doesn't
      understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition (she has
      pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain is still
      really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the real pain
      remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and then there i
      saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so hard to
      interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either emotional or
      physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can really do
      bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into thinking
      that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in fact, in
      reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....

      and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a step
      forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and rejoice in
      the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have here and now
      with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for and try to
      find the strength to support them as much as they need in their time of need
      and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the right
      decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have to work on
      it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my loved ones,
      around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every ounce of
      strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....

      i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i think that
      holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for her is the
      most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are making her
      feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe she's tired
      and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is enough for
      her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to get an
      opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and try to
      answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for her" ........

      widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel so much
      sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have hellped any
      but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and widgie
      tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and for her
      mommy too.

      linda and the boys


      -----Original Message-----
      From: zellene.sandler@...
      [mailto:zellene.sandler@...]
      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down


      Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
      more times that I tried to send via email.

      I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I had
      to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
      night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her former
      self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was okay
      and even resp rate was okay.

      This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
      purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in the
      bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
      trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems very
      weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's tired,
      very tired.

      I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this week.
      Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
      those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I am
      afraid to switch to the dandelion.

      So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like this?
      She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's the
      cause. I really need some support today.

      z



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      feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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    • flyerfan@blazenet.net
      Well, since I am the 1 that took Dom off of all of the heart meds due to all of the problems in March, I sure will say that Linda knows me well. I was a
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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        Well, since I am the 1 that took Dom off of all of the heart meds due
        to all of the problems in March, I sure will say that Linda knows me
        well. I was a nervous wreck for awhile just waiting for Dom to do
        something negative! We have now hit the 5 month mark and Dom is still
        going strong. He is still getting his hot spots and may need another
        nasty depo shot again. I see a small spot that I am treating with a
        topical as we try to avoid the steroids since they are bad for the
        heart too. My point in all of this is to back up Lindas comments. Of
        course the asthma may need the depo too soon so it is a wait and see.

        We were truly blessed with Doms picking us to be his family for
        whatever time that he has left. So far, he is still much better off
        of the meds than when he was when drugged. This is just this cats
        inability to metabolize meds into his system properly plus even a
        slight food change causes him problems--he is very sensitive. But in
        March, we decided that this is terminal and we would not traumatize
        him any longer. When he starts to slow down where he is looking
        tired, not eating etc., we will PTS as it is the thing to do for Dom.
        I want him with me forever, but not at Doms expense! I can really
        describe this right now because I had an 84 year old father that was
        in the hospital. He aspirated vomit and ended up with aspiration
        pneumonia and I found him in ICU on a ventilator when I got there
        after they called me. He spent 1 week in this condition and he just
        wasn't handling it. He was dependent on the ventilator for 100% of
        his oxygen and was fighting the vent so he needed to be totally
        sedated 24/7. After 7 days and no improvement, I was told there was
        probably permanent lung damage and he may never get off of the vent.
        He also needed 2 hip replacements, needed prostrate surgery, had a
        bad liver and now couldn't breathe. I asked to have him removed from
        the life support as I know this wasn't dads wishes. He never even
        wanted to go to a nursing home so I knew this would not be acceptable
        to him. If making Doms decision was tough, let's just say this 1 was
        tougher. He passed away on Wednesday morning but again I knew this
        was the right thing to do for him. Keeping him here was just going to
        be for me, not for him. I look at Dom in the same way as my dad and I
        will make the same decision quickly when the time comes for him. It
        doesn't make it easy but for me, I do know that what I do is the
        correct thing for the other person. I can live with that! Dom will
        probably slow down and sleep lots etc. and that will be fine and I
        will allow him to do this his own way. I will intervene when he shows
        any signs of suffering or he really lets me know that he has had
        enough. I feel sure that I will know by observing and talking to him.
        For Dom, not eating will be a sign as he loves his "foodies"! I had
        to PTS another cat, Snickers about 9 years ago and she told me when
        it was the time. For me the "Quality of Life" is the most important
        thing.

        Good luck Linda in coming to acceptance of this way of thinking.
        After fighting for so long it is hard because you want to do more
        and more, find new vets, new doctors, new meds etc. but sometimes
        just accepting the inevitable may be the kindest thing for our loved
        ones (both humans and pets). Just my opinion of course!!

        Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


        --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
        > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
        sure you
        > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
        vet's
        > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
        for the
        > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has prescribed
        > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
        related to
        > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
        don't
        > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
        you pull
        > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
        plaace
        > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
        positin it
        > means they are dehydrated...
        >
        > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
        if there
        > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any available
        > person....
        >
        > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
        thought of
        > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds
        and what a
        > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
        every
        > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a hard
        decision
        > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
        > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
        when i have
        > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
        meeting my
        > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
        is best
        > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
        recently "our
        > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
        really
        > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
        these
        > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's sthoughts
        and
        > actions)....
        >
        > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
        son/grandson and
        > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
        compared to
        > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
        grandson, i'm
        > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who has
        had a
        > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
        doesn't
        > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
        (she has
        > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain
        is still
        > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
        real pain
        > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and then
        there i
        > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so hard
        to
        > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either
        emotional or
        > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
        really do
        > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
        thinking
        > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in fact,
        in
        > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
        >
        > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
        step
        > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
        rejoice in
        > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have here
        and now
        > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for
        and try to
        > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their
        time of need
        > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
        right
        > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have to
        work on
        > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my loved
        ones,
        > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
        ounce of
        > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
        >
        > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
        think that
        > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
        her is the
        > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
        making her
        > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
        she's tired
        > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
        enough for
        > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
        get an
        > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
        try to
        > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for
        her" ........
        >
        > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
        so much
        > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
        hellped any
        > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
        widgie
        > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and
        for her
        > mommy too.
        >
        > linda and the boys
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: zellene.sandler@p...
        > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
        > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
        > To: feline-heart@y...
        > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
        >
        >
        > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
        > more times that I tried to send via email.
        >
        > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I had
        > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
        > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
        former
        > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was okay
        > and even resp rate was okay.
        >
        > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
        > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
        the
        > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
        > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems very
        > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's tired,
        > very tired.
        >
        > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this week.
        > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
        > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I am
        > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
        >
        > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like this?
        > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
        the
        > cause. I really need some support today.
        >
        > z
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • gea@alumni.duke.edu
        Hi, Z., I m sorry you re discouraged. :( Our vet didn t recommend any potassium supps with the lasix, but last time we checked Malcolm s potassium was OK. How
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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          Hi, Z.,

          I'm sorry you're discouraged. :(

          Our vet didn't recommend any potassium supps with the lasix, but last
          time we checked Malcolm's potassium was OK. How was Widgie's last
          check?

          Don't know if I have much else to offer, but I will say a prayer for
          you two today. Hang in there!

          Gail & Malcolm
        • Lynna
          Linda and Z, So I am NOT the only person who feels down. I am so down I can t believe it. sabrina doesn t move around much at all. We carry her. She can go
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Linda and Z,
            So I am NOT the only person who feels down. I am so down I can't
            believe it. sabrina doesn't move around much at all. We carry her. She
            can go about 6 feet and then stops and rests. It is her heart that is
            making her tired. She has right sided failure and somehow that makes
            her tired. I don't know. I know they told me what the deal was but I
            keep forgetting how it all works. aAll I know is that each day she is
            a tiny bit weaker than the day before and this hurts watching her.
            Lynna

            --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
            > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
            sure you
            > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
            vet's
            > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
            for the
            > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has prescribed
            > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
            related to
            > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
            don't
            > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
            you pull
            > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
            plaace
            > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
            positin it
            > means they are dehydrated...
            >
            > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
            if there
            > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any available
            > person....
            >
            > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
            thought of
            > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds and
            what a
            > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
            every
            > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a hard
            decision
            > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
            > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
            when i have
            > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
            meeting my
            > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
            is best
            > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
            recently "our
            > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
            really
            > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
            these
            > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's sthoughts
            and
            > actions)....
            >
            > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
            son/grandson and
            > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
            compared to
            > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
            grandson, i'm
            > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who has
            had a
            > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
            doesn't
            > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
            (she has
            > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain is
            still
            > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
            real pain
            > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and then
            there i
            > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so hard
            to
            > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either emotional
            or
            > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
            really do
            > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
            thinking
            > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in fact,
            in
            > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
            >
            > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
            step
            > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
            rejoice in
            > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have here
            and now
            > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for and
            try to
            > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their time
            of need
            > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
            right
            > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have to
            work on
            > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my loved
            ones,
            > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
            ounce of
            > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
            >
            > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
            think that
            > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
            her is the
            > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
            making her
            > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
            she's tired
            > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
            enough for
            > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
            get an
            > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
            try to
            > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for her"
            ........
            >
            > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
            so much
            > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
            hellped any
            > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
            widgie
            > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and for
            her
            > mommy too.
            >
            > linda and the boys
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: zellene.sandler@p...
            > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
            > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
            > To: feline-heart@y...
            > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
            >
            >
            > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
            > more times that I tried to send via email.
            >
            > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I had
            > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
            > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
            former
            > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was okay
            > and even resp rate was okay.
            >
            > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
            > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
            the
            > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
            > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems very
            > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's tired,
            > very tired.
            >
            > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this week.
            > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
            > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I am
            > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
            >
            > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like this?
            > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
            the
            > cause. I really need some support today.
            >
            > z
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Mike & Linda Irrgang
            the memory that will always stay inmy mind of pum is him running down our long hallway in chile with his tail straight up in the air...just tearing down the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              the memory that will always stay inmy mind of pum is him running down our
              long hallway in chile with his tail straight up in the air...just tearing
              down the hall....running like a crazy cat...now i have to carry him alot and
              we spend alot of time cuddling during bedtime and naptimes....i guess that's
              the positive to be found in all the negative of this illness...i think that
              pum must spend about 21 hours a day sleeping....or dozing or
              reclining...it's sad to watch him and yet he continues to bring me so much
              happiness...sometimes i feel so selfish bec i go out to do stuff and when i
              come back there he is ...jusst waiting for me to come back and be with
              him....brush him, cuddle him and i feel so awful about leaving him....it's
              like he exists only for me...he can't go outside and he so much wants
              to....it's just so sad, so sad...and i just can't think about it bec it
              would make me so depressed to think that that is the way it is all the
              time.....well, i have to try to be more zen about this altogether:
              everything happens for a reason...i don't understand the reason now and
              perhaps i never will....but i have to believe that it's for a reason....so
              much suffering in the world in so many different ways...i can't say it
              better than the person here who said it: our babies are ok with death....i
              have to keep that always in the forefront of my thoughts.....

              and think of it like this: our babies have us to love them and even in the
              worst of health circumstances what really matters and it would be same for
              us, is that once you know there is no remedy...you can comfort, love,
              support and caring folks around you.....and all of us are all that for our
              babies.....they are very unfortunate to be incurably ill but they are
              fortunate to have us and we are extremely fortunate to have them and the
              challenge they have brought into our lives is a true labor of love and i
              think of all that i have learned bec of it and how much it has enriched me
              albeit thru alot of pain and suffering....if i were in the usa, i think that
              i would dedicate myself to taking "unadoptables" into our home....they more
              than any others need the love and caring......well, i've rambled long
              enough....

              pray for our babies and pray for us to be strong to do the right things for
              them....to have the courage to do what they would want us to do for them
              even tho' they cannot talk, we can hear them.


              white lites to all and to all our angels,

              linda and the boys

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Lynna [mailto:lynnajane@...]
              Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:48 AM
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down


              Linda and Z,
              So I am NOT the only person who feels down. I am so down I can't
              believe it. sabrina doesn't move around much at all. We carry her. She
              can go about 6 feet and then stops and rests. It is her heart that is
              making her tired. She has right sided failure and somehow that makes
              her tired. I don't know. I know they told me what the deal was but I
              keep forgetting how it all works. aAll I know is that each day she is
              a tiny bit weaker than the day before and this hurts watching her.
              Lynna

              --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
              > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
              sure you
              > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
              vet's
              > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
              for the
              > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has prescribed
              > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
              related to
              > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
              don't
              > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
              you pull
              > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
              plaace
              > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
              positin it
              > means they are dehydrated...
              >
              > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
              if there
              > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any available
              > person....
              >
              > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
              thought of
              > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds and
              what a
              > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
              every
              > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a hard
              decision
              > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
              > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
              when i have
              > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
              meeting my
              > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
              is best
              > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
              recently "our
              > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
              really
              > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
              these
              > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's sthoughts
              and
              > actions)....
              >
              > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
              son/grandson and
              > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
              compared to
              > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
              grandson, i'm
              > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who has
              had a
              > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
              doesn't
              > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
              (she has
              > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain is
              still
              > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
              real pain
              > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and then
              there i
              > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so hard
              to
              > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either emotional
              or
              > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
              really do
              > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
              thinking
              > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in fact,
              in
              > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
              >
              > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
              step
              > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
              rejoice in
              > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have here
              and now
              > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for and
              try to
              > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their time
              of need
              > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
              right
              > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have to
              work on
              > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my loved
              ones,
              > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
              ounce of
              > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
              >
              > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
              think that
              > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
              her is the
              > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
              making her
              > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
              she's tired
              > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
              enough for
              > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
              get an
              > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
              try to
              > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for her"
              ........
              >
              > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
              so much
              > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
              hellped any
              > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
              widgie
              > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and for
              her
              > mommy too.
              >
              > linda and the boys
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: zellene.sandler@p...
              > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
              > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
              > To: feline-heart@y...
              > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
              >
              >
              > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
              > more times that I tried to send via email.
              >
              > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I had
              > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
              > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
              former
              > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was okay
              > and even resp rate was okay.
              >
              > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
              > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
              the
              > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
              > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems very
              > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's tired,
              > very tired.
              >
              > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this week.
              > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
              > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I am
              > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
              >
              > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like this?
              > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
              the
              > cause. I really need some support today.
              >
              > z
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Mike & Linda Irrgang
              dear jeanne, thx for saying it all so eloquently...i just babble and ramble....but you and dom have given me the courage to face the inevitable for pum and
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                dear jeanne, thx for saying it all so eloquently...i just babble and
                ramble....but you and dom have given me the courage to face the inevitable
                for pum and everything you say is right for pum, yes, i want him here
                forever, i want him there with me when it's my time....and he will be
                .....just not "here" but waiting for me running like a mad cat tail up in
                the air, making fun of my inability to keep up with him, i know he
                will....he's just like that!

                thx for saying it all so right and for giving me the spark of courage that i
                needed to do it...oh gosh, here i am bawling into the keyboard...it's the
                hardest thing i've ever had to do!

                i don't know if this is the right venue but pls accept my sincerest
                condolences on the passing of your dad. it sounds like he had a good life
                and was ready to accept the natural passing of time. again, you give me
                courage.

                linda

                -----Original Message-----
                From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
                Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:35 AM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down


                Well, since I am the 1 that took Dom off of all of the heart meds due
                to all of the problems in March, I sure will say that Linda knows me
                well. I was a nervous wreck for awhile just waiting for Dom to do
                something negative! We have now hit the 5 month mark and Dom is still
                going strong. He is still getting his hot spots and may need another
                nasty depo shot again. I see a small spot that I am treating with a
                topical as we try to avoid the steroids since they are bad for the
                heart too. My point in all of this is to back up Lindas comments. Of
                course the asthma may need the depo too soon so it is a wait and see.

                We were truly blessed with Doms picking us to be his family for
                whatever time that he has left. So far, he is still much better off
                of the meds than when he was when drugged. This is just this cats
                inability to metabolize meds into his system properly plus even a
                slight food change causes him problems--he is very sensitive. But in
                March, we decided that this is terminal and we would not traumatize
                him any longer. When he starts to slow down where he is looking
                tired, not eating etc., we will PTS as it is the thing to do for Dom.
                I want him with me forever, but not at Doms expense! I can really
                describe this right now because I had an 84 year old father that was
                in the hospital. He aspirated vomit and ended up with aspiration
                pneumonia and I found him in ICU on a ventilator when I got there
                after they called me. He spent 1 week in this condition and he just
                wasn't handling it. He was dependent on the ventilator for 100% of
                his oxygen and was fighting the vent so he needed to be totally
                sedated 24/7. After 7 days and no improvement, I was told there was
                probably permanent lung damage and he may never get off of the vent.
                He also needed 2 hip replacements, needed prostrate surgery, had a
                bad liver and now couldn't breathe. I asked to have him removed from
                the life support as I know this wasn't dads wishes. He never even
                wanted to go to a nursing home so I knew this would not be acceptable
                to him. If making Doms decision was tough, let's just say this 1 was
                tougher. He passed away on Wednesday morning but again I knew this
                was the right thing to do for him. Keeping him here was just going to
                be for me, not for him. I look at Dom in the same way as my dad and I
                will make the same decision quickly when the time comes for him. It
                doesn't make it easy but for me, I do know that what I do is the
                correct thing for the other person. I can live with that! Dom will
                probably slow down and sleep lots etc. and that will be fine and I
                will allow him to do this his own way. I will intervene when he shows
                any signs of suffering or he really lets me know that he has had
                enough. I feel sure that I will know by observing and talking to him.
                For Dom, not eating will be a sign as he loves his "foodies"! I had
                to PTS another cat, Snickers about 9 years ago and she told me when
                it was the time. For me the "Quality of Life" is the most important
                thing.

                Good luck Linda in coming to acceptance of this way of thinking.
                After fighting for so long it is hard because you want to do more
                and more, find new vets, new doctors, new meds etc. but sometimes
                just accepting the inevitable may be the kindest thing for our loved
                ones (both humans and pets). Just my opinion of course!!

                Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


                --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
                sure you
                > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
                vet's
                > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
                for the
                > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has prescribed
                > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
                related to
                > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
                don't
                > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
                you pull
                > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
                plaace
                > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
                positin it
                > means they are dehydrated...
                >
                > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
                if there
                > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any available
                > person....
                >
                > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
                thought of
                > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds
                and what a
                > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
                every
                > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a hard
                decision
                > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
                > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
                when i have
                > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
                meeting my
                > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
                is best
                > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
                recently "our
                > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
                really
                > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
                these
                > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's sthoughts
                and
                > actions)....
                >
                > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
                son/grandson and
                > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
                compared to
                > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
                grandson, i'm
                > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who has
                had a
                > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
                doesn't
                > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
                (she has
                > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain
                is still
                > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
                real pain
                > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and then
                there i
                > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so hard
                to
                > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either
                emotional or
                > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
                really do
                > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
                thinking
                > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in fact,
                in
                > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
                >
                > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
                step
                > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
                rejoice in
                > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have here
                and now
                > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for
                and try to
                > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their
                time of need
                > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
                right
                > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have to
                work on
                > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my loved
                ones,
                > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
                ounce of
                > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
                >
                > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
                think that
                > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
                her is the
                > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
                making her
                > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
                she's tired
                > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
                enough for
                > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
                get an
                > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
                try to
                > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for
                her" ........
                >
                > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
                so much
                > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
                hellped any
                > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
                widgie
                > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and
                for her
                > mommy too.
                >
                > linda and the boys
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: zellene.sandler@p...
                > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
                > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
                > To: feline-heart@y...
                > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
                >
                >
                > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
                > more times that I tried to send via email.
                >
                > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I had
                > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
                > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
                former
                > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was okay
                > and even resp rate was okay.
                >
                > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
                > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
                the
                > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
                > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems very
                > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's tired,
                > very tired.
                >
                > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this week.
                > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
                > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I am
                > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
                >
                > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like this?
                > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
                the
                > cause. I really need some support today.
                >
                > z
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Voula
                Dear Linda, I have so enjoyed and found comfort in your recent posts. The other day I saw Pebbles in my mind soaring through the air chasing a bird. When she
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Linda,
                  I have so enjoyed and found comfort in your recent posts. The other day
                  I saw Pebbles in my mind soaring through the air chasing a bird. When she
                  was young I stayed at my father's house for a month and our old cat Ginger
                  was still alive then. My father saw Pebbles leap through the air and he
                  looked at Ginger and sighed and said, "Ginger could do that once. Pebbles is
                  young. A new and young life....." I have tears in my eyes now writing this
                  and remembering this moment.....
                  I miss my girls.
                  Love, Voula.
                • flyerfan@blazenet.net
                  Linda, Here s hoping that Pum and Dom can both stay on top of this nasty problem for awhile longer. I sometimes think when I am calm and feeling comfortable
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Linda,

                    Here's hoping that Pum and Dom can both stay on top of this nasty
                    problem for awhile longer. I sometimes think when I am calm and
                    feeling comfortable with what is happening that Dom senses it and is
                    more relaxed too. (Well, as calm as Dom can get! LOL) He is lying
                    beside my laptop playfully biting at my fingers as I type this and I
                    think he wants more undivided attention. Spoiled cat!

                    Thanks for the kind words on dad. He was very lucky to live to be 84
                    and he is now at peace.

                    We will be here for you and I know I will be looking for your advice
                    the next time that Dom looks a "bit odd". I wish all of our kitties
                    could go through some prolonged good periods to give us
                    worrrying "meowmies" the break that we need to recharge. We all just
                    love them too much if that is possible.

                    TTYL,
                    Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


                    --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                    > dear jeanne, thx for saying it all so eloquently...i just babble and
                    > ramble....but you and dom have given me the courage to face the
                    inevitable
                    > for pum and everything you say is right for pum, yes, i want him
                    here
                    > forever, i want him there with me when it's my time....and he will
                    be
                    > .....just not "here" but waiting for me running like a mad cat tail
                    up in
                    > the air, making fun of my inability to keep up with him, i know he
                    > will....he's just like that!
                    >
                    > thx for saying it all so right and for giving me the spark of
                    courage that i
                    > needed to do it...oh gosh, here i am bawling into the
                    keyboard...it's the
                    > hardest thing i've ever had to do!
                    >
                    > i don't know if this is the right venue but pls accept my sincerest
                    > condolences on the passing of your dad. it sounds like he had a
                    good life
                    > and was ready to accept the natural passing of time. again, you
                    give me
                    > courage.
                    >
                    > linda
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: flyerfan@b... [mailto:flyerfan@b...]
                    > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:35 AM
                    > To: feline-heart@y...
                    > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, since I am the 1 that took Dom off of all of the heart meds
                    due
                    > to all of the problems in March, I sure will say that Linda knows me
                    > well. I was a nervous wreck for awhile just waiting for Dom to do
                    > something negative! We have now hit the 5 month mark and Dom is
                    still
                    > going strong. He is still getting his hot spots and may need another
                    > nasty depo shot again. I see a small spot that I am treating with a
                    > topical as we try to avoid the steroids since they are bad for the
                    > heart too. My point in all of this is to back up Lindas comments. Of
                    > course the asthma may need the depo too soon so it is a wait and
                    see.
                    >
                    > We were truly blessed with Doms picking us to be his family for
                    > whatever time that he has left. So far, he is still much better off
                    > of the meds than when he was when drugged. This is just this cats
                    > inability to metabolize meds into his system properly plus even a
                    > slight food change causes him problems--he is very sensitive. But in
                    > March, we decided that this is terminal and we would not traumatize
                    > him any longer. When he starts to slow down where he is looking
                    > tired, not eating etc., we will PTS as it is the thing to do for
                    Dom.
                    > I want him with me forever, but not at Doms expense! I can really
                    > describe this right now because I had an 84 year old father that was
                    > in the hospital. He aspirated vomit and ended up with aspiration
                    > pneumonia and I found him in ICU on a ventilator when I got there
                    > after they called me. He spent 1 week in this condition and he just
                    > wasn't handling it. He was dependent on the ventilator for 100% of
                    > his oxygen and was fighting the vent so he needed to be totally
                    > sedated 24/7. After 7 days and no improvement, I was told there was
                    > probably permanent lung damage and he may never get off of the vent.
                    > He also needed 2 hip replacements, needed prostrate surgery, had a
                    > bad liver and now couldn't breathe. I asked to have him removed from
                    > the life support as I know this wasn't dads wishes. He never even
                    > wanted to go to a nursing home so I knew this would not be
                    acceptable
                    > to him. If making Doms decision was tough, let's just say this 1 was
                    > tougher. He passed away on Wednesday morning but again I knew this
                    > was the right thing to do for him. Keeping him here was just going
                    to
                    > be for me, not for him. I look at Dom in the same way as my dad and
                    I
                    > will make the same decision quickly when the time comes for him. It
                    > doesn't make it easy but for me, I do know that what I do is the
                    > correct thing for the other person. I can live with that! Dom will
                    > probably slow down and sleep lots etc. and that will be fine and I
                    > will allow him to do this his own way. I will intervene when he
                    shows
                    > any signs of suffering or he really lets me know that he has had
                    > enough. I feel sure that I will know by observing and talking to
                    him.
                    > For Dom, not eating will be a sign as he loves his "foodies"! I had
                    > to PTS another cat, Snickers about 9 years ago and she told me when
                    > it was the time. For me the "Quality of Life" is the most important
                    > thing.
                    >
                    > Good luck Linda in coming to acceptance of this way of thinking.
                    > After fighting for so long it is hard because you want to do more
                    > and more, find new vets, new doctors, new meds etc. but sometimes
                    > just accepting the inevitable may be the kindest thing for our loved
                    > ones (both humans and pets). Just my opinion of course!!
                    >
                    > Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...>
                    wrote:
                    > > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
                    > sure you
                    > > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
                    > vet's
                    > > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
                    > for the
                    > > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has
                    prescribed
                    > > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
                    > related to
                    > > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
                    > don't
                    > > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
                    > you pull
                    > > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
                    > plaace
                    > > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
                    > positin it
                    > > means they are dehydrated...
                    > >
                    > > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
                    > if there
                    > > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any
                    available
                    > > person....
                    > >
                    > > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
                    > thought of
                    > > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds
                    > and what a
                    > > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
                    > every
                    > > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a
                    hard
                    > decision
                    > > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
                    > > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
                    > when i have
                    > > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
                    > meeting my
                    > > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
                    > is best
                    > > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
                    > recently "our
                    > > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
                    > really
                    > > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
                    > these
                    > > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's
                    sthoughts
                    > and
                    > > actions)....
                    > >
                    > > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
                    > son/grandson and
                    > > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
                    > compared to
                    > > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
                    > grandson, i'm
                    > > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who
                    has
                    > had a
                    > > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
                    > doesn't
                    > > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
                    > (she has
                    > > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain
                    > is still
                    > > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
                    > real pain
                    > > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and
                    then
                    > there i
                    > > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so
                    hard
                    > to
                    > > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either
                    > emotional or
                    > > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
                    > really do
                    > > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
                    > thinking
                    > > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in
                    fact,
                    > in
                    > > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
                    > >
                    > > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
                    > step
                    > > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
                    > rejoice in
                    > > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have
                    here
                    > and now
                    > > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for
                    > and try to
                    > > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their
                    > time of need
                    > > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
                    > right
                    > > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have
                    to
                    > work on
                    > > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my
                    loved
                    > ones,
                    > > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
                    > ounce of
                    > > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
                    > >
                    > > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
                    > think that
                    > > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
                    > her is the
                    > > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
                    > making her
                    > > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
                    > she's tired
                    > > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
                    > enough for
                    > > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
                    > get an
                    > > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
                    > try to
                    > > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for
                    > her" ........
                    > >
                    > > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
                    > so much
                    > > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
                    > hellped any
                    > > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
                    > widgie
                    > > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and
                    > for her
                    > > mommy too.
                    > >
                    > > linda and the boys
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: zellene.sandler@p...
                    > > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
                    > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
                    > > To: feline-heart@y...
                    > > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
                    > > more times that I tried to send via email.
                    > >
                    > > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I
                    had
                    > > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
                    > > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
                    > former
                    > > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was
                    okay
                    > > and even resp rate was okay.
                    > >
                    > > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
                    > > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
                    > the
                    > > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
                    > > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems
                    very
                    > > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's
                    tired,
                    > > very tired.
                    > >
                    > > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this
                    week.
                    > > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
                    > > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I
                    am
                    > > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
                    > >
                    > > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like
                    this?
                    > > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
                    > the
                    > > cause. I really need some support today.
                    > >
                    > > z
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • peggy baldwin
                    ... Hi Voula, I know how these moments in the past make you feel. You had Pebbles for 17 years just like I had my Angel Fred .Pebbles was a big part of your
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- Voula <catwoman1@...> wrote:
                      > Dear Linda,
                      > I have so enjoyed and found comfort in your
                      > recent posts. The other day
                      > I saw Pebbles in my mind soaring through the air
                      > chasing a bird. When she
                      > was young I stayed at my father's house for a month
                      > and our old cat Ginger
                      > was still alive then. My father saw Pebbles leap
                      > through the air and he
                      > looked at Ginger and sighed and said, "Ginger could
                      > do that once. Pebbles is
                      > young. A new and young life....." I have tears in my
                      > eyes now writing this
                      > and remembering this moment.....
                      > I miss my girls.
                      > Love, Voula.

                      Hi Voula,
                      I know how these moments in the past make you feel.
                      You had Pebbles for 17 years just like I had my Angel
                      Fred .Pebbles was a big part of your life and very
                      special to you.No matter how many cats you take in
                      Pebbles will always be in your heart.
                      PEGGY
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
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                    • Voula
                      Thank you Peggy, Fred and Pebbles were certainly fighters that is for sure. They both fooled the vets for a long time. Yes I do miss my Pebbles, as I know you
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                        Thank you Peggy,
                        Fred and Pebbles were certainly fighters that is for sure. They both
                        fooled the vets for a long time. Yes I do miss my Pebbles, as I know you
                        miss Fred and how special he was to you. You are right Peggy, no matter how
                        many cats I have, my Pebbles will always have her own place in my heart. She
                        was and always will be the Queen of all my cats because she was my first cat
                        of my own, and because she simply was the Queen, and that is that! (smile!)
                        Love, Voula.

                        > Hi Voula,
                        > I know how these moments in the past make you feel.
                        > You had Pebbles for 17 years just like I had my Angel
                        >Fred .Pebbles was a big part of your life and very
                        >special to you.No matter how many cats you take in
                        >Pebbles will always be in your heart.
                        > PEGGY
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >__________________________________________________
                        >Do You Yahoo!?
                        >Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                        >http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                        hi jeanne, yes, i know what you mean about a recharge....pum seems to be doing ok these days...he seems to be recovering from the enalapril toxicity problem on
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 5, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          hi jeanne,

                          yes, i know what you mean about a recharge....pum seems to be doing ok these
                          days...he seems to be recovering from the enalapril toxicity problem on his
                          kidney functions....thx to the person on this site who said i had to
                          checkthe creat levels etc also otherwise i'd be going about my happy
                          ignorant state administering the enalapril every night...poor pum....

                          well, i am going to try to enjy the moments of repreive ethat i have at the
                          moment to give myself a stress rest and to give the pum the much un-needed
                          additional attetntion that he is requesting....that cat gets more attetnion
                          than everyone else in our entire family combined!!!

                          have a nice sunday! and thx again for all the support, kindnesses and words
                          of encouragement you send our way!


                          hugs,
                          linda and the boys

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: flyerfan@... [mailto:flyerfan@...]
                          Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 10:40 PM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down


                          Linda,

                          Here's hoping that Pum and Dom can both stay on top of this nasty
                          problem for awhile longer. I sometimes think when I am calm and
                          feeling comfortable with what is happening that Dom senses it and is
                          more relaxed too. (Well, as calm as Dom can get! LOL) He is lying
                          beside my laptop playfully biting at my fingers as I type this and I
                          think he wants more undivided attention. Spoiled cat!

                          Thanks for the kind words on dad. He was very lucky to live to be 84
                          and he is now at peace.

                          We will be here for you and I know I will be looking for your advice
                          the next time that Dom looks a "bit odd". I wish all of our kitties
                          could go through some prolonged good periods to give us
                          worrrying "meowmies" the break that we need to recharge. We all just
                          love them too much if that is possible.

                          TTYL,
                          Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie


                          --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...> wrote:
                          > dear jeanne, thx for saying it all so eloquently...i just babble and
                          > ramble....but you and dom have given me the courage to face the
                          inevitable
                          > for pum and everything you say is right for pum, yes, i want him
                          here
                          > forever, i want him there with me when it's my time....and he will
                          be
                          > .....just not "here" but waiting for me running like a mad cat tail
                          up in
                          > the air, making fun of my inability to keep up with him, i know he
                          > will....he's just like that!
                          >
                          > thx for saying it all so right and for giving me the spark of
                          courage that i
                          > needed to do it...oh gosh, here i am bawling into the
                          keyboard...it's the
                          > hardest thing i've ever had to do!
                          >
                          > i don't know if this is the right venue but pls accept my sincerest
                          > condolences on the passing of your dad. it sounds like he had a
                          good life
                          > and was ready to accept the natural passing of time. again, you
                          give me
                          > courage.
                          >
                          > linda
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: flyerfan@b... [mailto:flyerfan@b...]
                          > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:35 AM
                          > To: feline-heart@y...
                          > Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down
                          >
                          >
                          > Well, since I am the 1 that took Dom off of all of the heart meds
                          due
                          > to all of the problems in March, I sure will say that Linda knows me
                          > well. I was a nervous wreck for awhile just waiting for Dom to do
                          > something negative! We have now hit the 5 month mark and Dom is
                          still
                          > going strong. He is still getting his hot spots and may need another
                          > nasty depo shot again. I see a small spot that I am treating with a
                          > topical as we try to avoid the steroids since they are bad for the
                          > heart too. My point in all of this is to back up Lindas comments. Of
                          > course the asthma may need the depo too soon so it is a wait and
                          see.
                          >
                          > We were truly blessed with Doms picking us to be his family for
                          > whatever time that he has left. So far, he is still much better off
                          > of the meds than when he was when drugged. This is just this cats
                          > inability to metabolize meds into his system properly plus even a
                          > slight food change causes him problems--he is very sensitive. But in
                          > March, we decided that this is terminal and we would not traumatize
                          > him any longer. When he starts to slow down where he is looking
                          > tired, not eating etc., we will PTS as it is the thing to do for
                          Dom.
                          > I want him with me forever, but not at Doms expense! I can really
                          > describe this right now because I had an 84 year old father that was
                          > in the hospital. He aspirated vomit and ended up with aspiration
                          > pneumonia and I found him in ICU on a ventilator when I got there
                          > after they called me. He spent 1 week in this condition and he just
                          > wasn't handling it. He was dependent on the ventilator for 100% of
                          > his oxygen and was fighting the vent so he needed to be totally
                          > sedated 24/7. After 7 days and no improvement, I was told there was
                          > probably permanent lung damage and he may never get off of the vent.
                          > He also needed 2 hip replacements, needed prostrate surgery, had a
                          > bad liver and now couldn't breathe. I asked to have him removed from
                          > the life support as I know this wasn't dads wishes. He never even
                          > wanted to go to a nursing home so I knew this would not be
                          acceptable
                          > to him. If making Doms decision was tough, let's just say this 1 was
                          > tougher. He passed away on Wednesday morning but again I knew this
                          > was the right thing to do for him. Keeping him here was just going
                          to
                          > be for me, not for him. I look at Dom in the same way as my dad and
                          I
                          > will make the same decision quickly when the time comes for him. It
                          > doesn't make it easy but for me, I do know that what I do is the
                          > correct thing for the other person. I can live with that! Dom will
                          > probably slow down and sleep lots etc. and that will be fine and I
                          > will allow him to do this his own way. I will intervene when he
                          shows
                          > any signs of suffering or he really lets me know that he has had
                          > enough. I feel sure that I will know by observing and talking to
                          him.
                          > For Dom, not eating will be a sign as he loves his "foodies"! I had
                          > to PTS another cat, Snickers about 9 years ago and she told me when
                          > it was the time. For me the "Quality of Life" is the most important
                          > thing.
                          >
                          > Good luck Linda in coming to acceptance of this way of thinking.
                          > After fighting for so long it is hard because you want to do more
                          > and more, find new vets, new doctors, new meds etc. but sometimes
                          > just accepting the inevitable may be the kindest thing for our loved
                          > ones (both humans and pets). Just my opinion of course!!
                          >
                          > Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In feline-heart@y..., "Mike & Linda Irrgang" <irrgang@a...>
                          wrote:
                          > > hi z., i'm sorry to herre that widgie is having difficulty...i'm
                          > sure you
                          > > have done all the right things and you really can't look at the
                          > vet's
                          > > absence as a negative as i really believe that everything happens
                          > for the
                          > > best and has a reason behind it.....with lasix my vet has
                          prescribed
                          > > electrolyte salts....iw onder if the difficulty moving could be
                          > related to
                          > > her being dehydreted and having muscular/joint pain....but i just
                          > don't
                          > > know....have you tried the "neck skin" hydration test??? you know
                          > you pull
                          > > up the skin on the back of their neck and if it pops right back in
                          > plaace
                          > > they are well hydrated and if it kinda stays in the pulled up
                          > positin it
                          > > means they are dehydrated...
                          > >
                          > > is their anyone else you can consult....and would you even want to
                          > if there
                          > > was? i know that i feel very reluctant to consult just any
                          available
                          > > person....
                          > >
                          > > recently i had to really look into my heart about the pum and i
                          > thought of
                          > > big dom and his mom jeanne and how she took him off all the meds
                          > and what a
                          > > hard call it was for her and how she lives on pins and needles now
                          > every
                          > > minute of the day....i took pum off the enalapril and it was a
                          hard
                          > decision
                          > > to make but i know now that i will not go any further with meds or
                          > > additional conventional med treatments....bec there comes a time
                          > when i have
                          > > to ask myself "who am i doing this for? him or me? is it really
                          > meeting my
                          > > need for him, to continue to have him around? or is it really what
                          > is best
                          > > for him? and his quality of life? " somebody also said here
                          > recently "our
                          > > babies are ok with death...it's us who aren't" and those words
                          > really
                          > > touched me....(sorry for being so unoriginal, i just sorta pick up
                          > these
                          > > tidbits that impact me but they are really someone else's
                          sthoughts
                          > and
                          > > actions)....
                          > >
                          > > and now i just got back from california from visiting my
                          > son/grandson and
                          > > during that time i thought, gee, i just feel so old and tired
                          > compared to
                          > > them(the son and daughter in law) and of course next to the
                          > grandson, i'm
                          > > downnright decrepit and then i thought of my mom in houston who
                          has
                          > had a
                          > > really difficult time recently and is saying she wants to die and
                          > doesn't
                          > > understand why she has sto go on living in her current condition
                          > (she has
                          > > pretty bad arthritis and takeds pain meds but as we know the pain
                          > is still
                          > > really there and drs seem to have an aversion to prescribing the
                          > real pain
                          > > remedies due to fear of lawsuits, etc. it's just terrible) and
                          then
                          > there i
                          > > saw the cycle of life and how it goes around and how we try so
                          hard
                          > to
                          > > interject our own emotions, knowledge born of need, either
                          > emotional or
                          > > physicsal and that in the end there is only so much that we can
                          > really do
                          > > bec nature will still take its course.....we fool ourselves into
                          > thinking
                          > > that we have control and we think sometimes that we do but in
                          fact,
                          > in
                          > > reality, we are only delaying the inevitable....
                          > >
                          > > and then i thought that it is important to for me to try to take a
                          > step
                          > > forward to work on my ability to embrace that inevitability and
                          > rejoice in
                          > > the cycle of life and rejoice in the happy moments that i have
                          here
                          > and now
                          > > with those that are important to me and whom i love and care for
                          > and try to
                          > > find the strength to support them as much as they need in their
                          > time of need
                          > > and pray that i can find that strength and the courage to make the
                          > right
                          > > decision based on their needs and not mine.....i'm going to have
                          to
                          > work on
                          > > it alot...i'm basicaslly selfish and want the pum, my mom, my
                          loved
                          > ones,
                          > > around me forever....i will have to pray alot and muster up every
                          > ounce of
                          > > strength....bec it's not easy....am i making any sense....
                          > >
                          > > i know that you have done everything you can for your baby and i
                          > think that
                          > > holding her and loving her and letting her know that you care for
                          > her is the
                          > > most important thing you can do...and you are doing it....you are
                          > making her
                          > > feel loved...she is eating and that is very important and maybe
                          > she's tired
                          > > and just wants to rest and know that you are there with her is
                          > enough for
                          > > her....i can only say that i think i would try to find someone to
                          > get an
                          > > opinion without traumatizing her and then look into your heart and
                          > try to
                          > > answer the question "what would widgie want me to do for
                          > her" ........
                          > >
                          > > widgie has been a part of my llife for sometime now and i can feel
                          > so much
                          > > sympathy for her and it hurts me too.....i don't know if i have
                          > hellped any
                          > > but i hope that i have.....i'll light a special candle for you and
                          > widgie
                          > > tonite and we'll say some special prayers for her to recover and
                          > for her
                          > > mommy too.
                          > >
                          > > linda and the boys
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: zellene.sandler@p...
                          > > [mailto:zellene.sandler@p...]
                          > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:49 AM
                          > > To: feline-heart@y...
                          > > Subject: [feline-heart] Feeling Down
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Okay, it works through the website...hope this isn't repeated two
                          > > more times that I tried to send via email.
                          > >
                          > > I had a bad night last night. Widgie seems so weak and tired. I
                          had
                          > > to give an extra 1/2 Lasix because her cough sounded wetter last
                          > > night. She doesn't seem to want much affection...so unlike her
                          > former
                          > > self. It just hurts me to see her like this. But heart rate was
                          okay
                          > > and even resp rate was okay.
                          > >
                          > > This morning she was on the bed. I cuddled her a little and she
                          > > purred a little and licked my hand. She ate okay and then went in
                          > the
                          > > bureau drawer to sleep for the day. She's started having a little
                          > > trouble jumping up to the chair next to the dresser. She seems
                          very
                          > > weak. I just look into her eyes and she is saying to me she's
                          tired,
                          > > very tired.
                          > >
                          > > I just don't know what to do. My internal med vet is gone this
                          week.
                          > > Could it be low potassium? It was normal a couple weeks ago. For
                          > > those of you using Lasix, does your vet give potassium supps? I
                          am
                          > > afraid to switch to the dandelion.
                          > >
                          > > So many of you say your cats have energy...why is Widgie like
                          this?
                          > > She is on a really low dose of heart meds so I don't think that's
                          > the
                          > > cause. I really need some support today.
                          > >
                          > > z
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        • Mike & Linda Irrgang
                          but you know, like no matter how much you try to prepare, rationalize, objectivize, etc., be strong....i know that i will be an absolute wreck when pum starts
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 5, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            but you know, like no matter how much you try to prepare, rationalize,
                            objectivize, etc., be strong....i know that i will be an absolute wreck when
                            pum starts the inevitable downhill slide....today i'm having a stress rest
                            and he's looking and behaving ok but it lurks in the back of my mind.....the
                            imminence of his demise is what makes it a daily stessor and hard to keep
                            spirits up.....i have to keep telling myself that we're all in a downward
                            slope once we stop anabolizing...it's just a matter of time and i have to
                            remember that "he's ok with it" it's me that isn't.....bec i want him here
                            forever with me. forever by my pillow. forever by the computer. and how
                            wonderful...just think about it....one day it will be forever and what a
                            grand day that will be!!!!

                            linda

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: peggy baldwin [mailto:chessie92@...]
                            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 10:18 AM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Re: Feeling Down



                            --- Voula <catwoman1@...> wrote:
                            > Dear Linda,
                            > I have so enjoyed and found comfort in your
                            > recent posts. The other day
                            > I saw Pebbles in my mind soaring through the air
                            > chasing a bird. When she
                            > was young I stayed at my father's house for a month
                            > and our old cat Ginger
                            > was still alive then. My father saw Pebbles leap
                            > through the air and he
                            > looked at Ginger and sighed and said, "Ginger could
                            > do that once. Pebbles is
                            > young. A new and young life....." I have tears in my
                            > eyes now writing this
                            > and remembering this moment.....
                            > I miss my girls.
                            > Love, Voula.

                            Hi Voula,
                            I know how these moments in the past make you feel.
                            You had Pebbles for 17 years just like I had my Angel
                            Fred .Pebbles was a big part of your life and very
                            special to you.No matter how many cats you take in
                            Pebbles will always be in your heart.
                            PEGGY
                            >
                            >
                            >


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