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Re: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience

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  • C. Halligan
    Hi Deda, Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid? I actually had
    Message 1 of 21 , May 6, 2008
      Hi Deda,

      Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid?

      I actually had been weening Chloe very very slowly off the prednisone (about 2.5 months). She recently saw her integrative vet and she said that the steroid will be damaging her at a cellular level or a level that we cannot see at this time and will not see until it is too late. Vets jump on steroids because as a last resort they are wonder drugs BUT long term the effects are usually devastating, among Cushing's disease being the worst.

      I am back to square one with food elimination and hoping the supplements will work. Cindy
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: rzivorad
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:05 PM
      Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience



      Hi Cindy!

      I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
      in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
      therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
      Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
      Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
      opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
      companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
      of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
      can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

      I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
      deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
      course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
      common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
      cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

      When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
      wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
      that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
      because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
      place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
      serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
      prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
      could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
      long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
      articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

      All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
      you.

      Many regards from Deda

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • rzivorad
      Hi El! I can t argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong. Maybe we
      Message 2 of 21 , May 7, 2008
        Hi El!

        I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose
        articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong.
        Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see that
        there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
        there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used, especially
        in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
        Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
        azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
        very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
        recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
        also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
        alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in question.

        When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
        prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.

        Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such experience.

        Many regards from Deda
      • rzivorad
        No, she doesn t use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I mentioned. It lasted
        Message 3 of 21 , May 7, 2008
          No, she doesn't use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she
          was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I
          mentioned. It lasted only 8 weeks. Since then she never had any
          problem of that kind. It was enteritis, inflammation of small bowel,
          and was manifested as so-called small bowel diarrhea (diarrhea which
          consists of undigested food, smelling like the food that was eaten).

          By the way, I prefer the term corticosteroids, in order to
          differentiate them from anabolic steroid, which are really dangerous
          medications.

          Many regards from Deda
        • rzivorad
          Hi Katy! I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar things. I can t argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
          Message 4 of 21 , May 7, 2008
            Hi Katy!

            I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar
            things. I can't argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
            corticosteroids. I accept every experience with respect.
            Unfortunately, many authors whose articles on the use of
            corticosteroids I have read say what I said. I also read statements
            similar to mine on some forums. It is obvious that one has to collect
            as much experiences as possible. When you say that corticosteroids
            lower immunity, bear in mind that that is the goal of the therapy for
            immune mediated diseases (like IBD). Low immunity at that period can
            be (and usually is) compensated by concurrent use of antibiotics. We
            can discuss adverse effects on heart and other organs, but immunity
            must be lowered in the case of immune mediated diseases.

            Thanks for your mail. It will help me to consider the use of
            corticosteroids more carefully next time.

            Kindest regards, Deda
          • toomany_kittys
            Deda, Thank you for your post and the information. Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6 mths can sometimes suppress the
            Message 5 of 21 , May 7, 2008
              Deda,
              Thank you for your post and the information.
              Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6
              mths can sometimes suppress the auto-immune disease symptoms for
              months or years. This is done for many humans also with Multiple
              Sclerosis when symptoms are severe. This was the neurologist's plan.
              The vet had a different plan to wean slower and maybe not at all,
              depending on any return of symptoms.
              Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
              used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
              adverse affects.
              Currently, Jasmin the cat is being given hydrocortisone alternatively
              with the pred to wean her off the pred. It isn't as strong and has
              lesser side affects. She is also on an adrenal support for the next
              3 - 6 mths. The integrative vet has found that diseases that respond
              quickly to pred often involve the adrenal glands.

              I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. The yellow soft stool
              does indicate undigested food - the yellow is bile. Were you giving
              her digestive enzymes? Pancreatic enzymes? supplements for gut
              health? I recently had a cat have acute pancreatitis and the yellow
              stool that you speak of and within 3 weeks her stool was back to
              normal, as were her pancreatic numbers, etc.. She was given an herbal
              formula with digestive enzymes, adrenal support, immune support, etc.
              and the problem resolved very quickly. (I have many foster cats)

              Sometimes drugs are absolutely necessary, but often there are better
              solutions.

              El



              -- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi El!
              >
              > I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets,
              whose
              > articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply
              wrong.
              > Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see
              that
              > there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
              > there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used,
              especially
              > in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
              > Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
              > azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
              > very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
              > recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
              > also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
              > alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in
              question.
              >
              > When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
              > prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.
              >
              > Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such
              experience.
              >
              > Many regards from Deda
              >
            • rzivorad
              Hi El! I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands. Adrenal glands produce
              Message 6 of 21 , May 9, 2008
                Hi El!

                I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to
                prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands.
                Adrenal glands produce natural corticosteroid cortisol, which has
                immunosuppresive effect (among many other). It is pretty normal to
                suppose that there would never be autoimmune diseases if adrenal
                glands worked well so, being insufficiently active, they are always
                involved in immune mediated diseases.

                I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs, but
                with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse effects.
                In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when respond
                to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                There was no need for pancreatic enzymes supplement. It is used in the
                case of pancreatic exocrine insufficiency (which is rare in cats), and
                is contraindicated in acute pancreatitis. This is heart group, so we
                shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was typical
                small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                pancreatic insufficiency.

                I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is no
                time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                health, but in the cases of serious diseases.

                < I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. >

                Thanks!

                Many regards from Deda
              • toomany_kittys
                Deda, My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated, prednisolone is used in a
                Message 7 of 21 , May 9, 2008
                  Deda,
                  My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such
                  as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated,
                  prednisolone is used in a very high dose for a short duration which
                  then often suppresses the symptoms for years - not in lower doses for
                  life. The below drugs aren't used in this manner for this condition -
                  in extremely high dose for short duration. Please note my original
                  stmt below 'They are not without serious adverse affects.'

                  Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                  used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                  adverse affects.

                  > I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                  > immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs,
                  but
                  > with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse
                  effects.
                  > In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                  > cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                  > hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when
                  respond
                  > to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                  >
                  If I recall correctly, you brought up the IBD. Believe me, the stool
                  from pancreatic insufficiency is not always 'just loose, pale and
                  greasy'.

                  This is heart group, so we
                  > shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was
                  typical
                  > small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                  > pancreatic insufficiency.

                  I completely disagree with the stmt below. In an emergency situation,
                  medications are often important but not always 'when disease
                  develops'. Yes, medications are important for some diseases but with
                  many, such as IBD, alternative treatments such as accupuncture,
                  Chinese Herbal medicines, supplements, etc. and diet changes work
                  very well. The methods don't have to applied on a long-term basis. My
                  HCM kitty had IBD (both diagnosed by ultrasound), and we successfully
                  used alternative methods. He no longer needs the accupuncture nor the
                  Chinese Herbal meds for it. The IBD has resolved itself.
                  Also, for HCM have you read the recent post where the one cat who
                  reacted adversely to Atenolol has had improvement with the supplement
                  Cardio Strength? At some point, he will probably require meds, but
                  the supplement has reversed the disease process to a degree.
                  >
                  > I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is
                  no
                  > time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                  > applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                  > health, but in the cases of serious diseases.


                  You're right, this is a heart group. If you would like to further
                  this discussion, feel free to email me.

                  El
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