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Re: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience

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  • C. Halligan
    Hi Deda, Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as expert
    Message 1 of 21 , May 4 9:16 AM
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      Hi Deda,

      Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as 'expert' because of the perspectives these people tend to hold. Many allopathics are ignorant of homeopathic methods. Supportive methods were not mentioned such as including probiotics after antibiotic use.

      The ontology of veterinary medicine conflicts with non-allopathic methods and it doesn't help that pharmaceutical companies provide the capitalistic framework for educating future veterinarians and the maintenance of the vet system.

      Anyway, do I think that I was wrong to stop Chloe's steroid? I did it properly, ie. weening her off of it. For now, I am trying periodic injections of dexamethasone including homeopathic means. Do they work against each other? Theoretically yes but if I do not administer both the long term affects of the steroid use may occur more quickly.

      Thank you again Deda for the article. I think it succinctly articulates this nasty disease.

      Cindy
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: rzivorad
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 8:11 AM
      Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience


      Hi Cindy!

      I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago.
      It's nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both
      knowledgeable and also not so knowledgeable people there. If you want to
      learn of something, then learn from an expert. Here is a link to an
      article written by expert, it will help you much about IBD:

      http://maxshouse.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease.htm

      I think you were wrong when you stopped administering corticosteroids,
      you'll see why when you read this article.

      I am sorry, I know this message has nothing in common with heart
      diseases, but I see that cats of many people here , besides heart
      problems, also have problems with IBD. This article is worth reading!

      Many regards, Deda





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • rzivorad
      Hi Cindy! I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The therapy
      Message 2 of 21 , May 5 7:05 PM
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        Hi Cindy!

        I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
        in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
        therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
        Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
        Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
        opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
        companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
        of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
        can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

        I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
        deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
        course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
        common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
        cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

        When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
        wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
        that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
        because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
        place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
        serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
        prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
        could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
        long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
        articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

        All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
        you.

        Many regards from Deda



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • katy4282003
        actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus making the cat unable to
        Message 3 of 21 , May 5 7:46 PM
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          actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont
          have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus
          making the cat unable to fight infection just like in people. the
          risk for diabeties and ulcers are also increased. steroids can
          exacerbate heart disease. many experienced vets also give yearly
          vaccinations but we know that isnt safe for our pets. i am glad to
          hear that your cat hasnt had adverse reactions to steroids but that
          is not always the case and steroids should be used with caution in my
          opinion.
          >^..^<
          katy & belle



          > When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
          > wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you
          said
          > that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good
          reason,
          > because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can
          take
          > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't
          have
          > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term
          use of
          > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect
          (it
          > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that
          even
          > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
          which
          > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
          >
          > All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it!
          Thank
          > you.
          >
          > Many regards from Deda
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • toomany_kittys
          Hi Deda, Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don t have ... of ... which ... I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
          Message 4 of 21 , May 5 8:50 PM
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            Hi Deda,

            Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
            > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use
            of
            > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
            > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
            > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
            which
            > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.


            I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
            different experience with my kitty Jasmin and prednisolone.
            Jasmin, 3 yrs old now, has a neurological condition called
            demylineating neuropathy. It is an auto-immune disease that came
            immediately after the FeLV vax and anaesthesia/spay done at the same
            time with a previous caregiver. This was diagnosed by a neurologist.
            The symptoms are severe ataxia, eventual limb paralysis, twitching,
            thin coat, etc.. Of course her people then returned her to a shelter.
            The only allopathic treatment is prednisolone. The neurologist put her
            on a six mth treatment course of it. She is still on it after one year.
            He told me of side effects. She has them. Her bladder walls have
            thickened (common side effect), debris in her urine. It also is very
            hard on the heart and her heart is checked periodically. She is being
            weaned off of it but damage has been done by prolonged prednisolone
            therapy. It did however, relieve the symptoms for the most part until
            recently.
            Now she goes to an integrative vet, along with the neurologist and we
            will be trying alternative methods and supplements.
            I truly wish that I'd never agreed to her being put on the prednisolone
            for a prolonged period of time.
            I'm glad the pred worked for your little one with no side effects. My
            experience with it is the opposite.
            El
          • psychoforkaatz
            The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since Josie was also
            Message 5 of 21 , May 6 4:01 AM
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              The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I
              have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since
              Josie was also diagnosed with heart disease I havent been there much. I
              am glad that I personally chose to steer away from the use of regular
              steroids as they would be detrimental to Josies heart condition, they
              promote fluid retention and Josie has been having serious problems with
              that lately. I use supplements and food changes and most recently a
              long course of antibiotics to help with a recurring underlying
              infection and Josie's IBD is much better. She was not a regular vomiter
              but had constant diarreah. I think the food changes helped her the
              most. So while many people have no choice after trying everything else,
              to use steroids, each case is different and I think the fewer meds we
              can get by using the better. I already spend 24/7 administering meds,
              supplements and feedings to Josie, its a good thing I have no life.....

              Kendall and Josie
            • shannon5@charter.net
              Hi Deda, I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a
              Message 6 of 21 , May 6 7:52 AM
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                Hi Deda,
                I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a steriod shot. I think heart failure qualifies as a serious side effect.
                Shannon
                ---- rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:

                > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
                > Many regards from Deda
              • C. Halligan
                Hi Deda, Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid? I actually had
                Message 7 of 21 , May 6 2:20 PM
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                  Hi Deda,

                  Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid?

                  I actually had been weening Chloe very very slowly off the prednisone (about 2.5 months). She recently saw her integrative vet and she said that the steroid will be damaging her at a cellular level or a level that we cannot see at this time and will not see until it is too late. Vets jump on steroids because as a last resort they are wonder drugs BUT long term the effects are usually devastating, among Cushing's disease being the worst.

                  I am back to square one with food elimination and hoping the supplements will work. Cindy
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: rzivorad
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:05 PM
                  Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience



                  Hi Cindy!

                  I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
                  in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
                  therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
                  Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
                  Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
                  opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
                  companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
                  of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
                  can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

                  I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
                  deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
                  course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
                  common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
                  cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

                  When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                  wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
                  that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
                  because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
                  place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                  serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                  prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                  could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                  long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                  articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

                  All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
                  you.

                  Many regards from Deda

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rzivorad
                  Hi El! I can t argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong. Maybe we
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 7 7:42 AM
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                    Hi El!

                    I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose
                    articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong.
                    Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see that
                    there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                    there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used, especially
                    in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                    Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                    azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                    very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                    recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                    also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                    alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in question.

                    When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                    prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.

                    Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such experience.

                    Many regards from Deda
                  • rzivorad
                    No, she doesn t use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I mentioned. It lasted
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 7 7:45 AM
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                      No, she doesn't use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she
                      was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I
                      mentioned. It lasted only 8 weeks. Since then she never had any
                      problem of that kind. It was enteritis, inflammation of small bowel,
                      and was manifested as so-called small bowel diarrhea (diarrhea which
                      consists of undigested food, smelling like the food that was eaten).

                      By the way, I prefer the term corticosteroids, in order to
                      differentiate them from anabolic steroid, which are really dangerous
                      medications.

                      Many regards from Deda
                    • rzivorad
                      Hi Katy! I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar things. I can t argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 7 7:48 AM
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                        Hi Katy!

                        I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar
                        things. I can't argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                        corticosteroids. I accept every experience with respect.
                        Unfortunately, many authors whose articles on the use of
                        corticosteroids I have read say what I said. I also read statements
                        similar to mine on some forums. It is obvious that one has to collect
                        as much experiences as possible. When you say that corticosteroids
                        lower immunity, bear in mind that that is the goal of the therapy for
                        immune mediated diseases (like IBD). Low immunity at that period can
                        be (and usually is) compensated by concurrent use of antibiotics. We
                        can discuss adverse effects on heart and other organs, but immunity
                        must be lowered in the case of immune mediated diseases.

                        Thanks for your mail. It will help me to consider the use of
                        corticosteroids more carefully next time.

                        Kindest regards, Deda
                      • toomany_kittys
                        Deda, Thank you for your post and the information. Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6 mths can sometimes suppress the
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 7 7:11 PM
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                          Deda,
                          Thank you for your post and the information.
                          Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6
                          mths can sometimes suppress the auto-immune disease symptoms for
                          months or years. This is done for many humans also with Multiple
                          Sclerosis when symptoms are severe. This was the neurologist's plan.
                          The vet had a different plan to wean slower and maybe not at all,
                          depending on any return of symptoms.
                          Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                          used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                          adverse affects.
                          Currently, Jasmin the cat is being given hydrocortisone alternatively
                          with the pred to wean her off the pred. It isn't as strong and has
                          lesser side affects. She is also on an adrenal support for the next
                          3 - 6 mths. The integrative vet has found that diseases that respond
                          quickly to pred often involve the adrenal glands.

                          I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. The yellow soft stool
                          does indicate undigested food - the yellow is bile. Were you giving
                          her digestive enzymes? Pancreatic enzymes? supplements for gut
                          health? I recently had a cat have acute pancreatitis and the yellow
                          stool that you speak of and within 3 weeks her stool was back to
                          normal, as were her pancreatic numbers, etc.. She was given an herbal
                          formula with digestive enzymes, adrenal support, immune support, etc.
                          and the problem resolved very quickly. (I have many foster cats)

                          Sometimes drugs are absolutely necessary, but often there are better
                          solutions.

                          El



                          -- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi El!
                          >
                          > I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets,
                          whose
                          > articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply
                          wrong.
                          > Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see
                          that
                          > there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                          > there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used,
                          especially
                          > in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                          > Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                          > azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                          > very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                          > recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                          > also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                          > alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in
                          question.
                          >
                          > When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                          > prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.
                          >
                          > Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such
                          experience.
                          >
                          > Many regards from Deda
                          >
                        • rzivorad
                          Hi El! I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands. Adrenal glands produce
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 9 7:45 AM
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                            Hi El!

                            I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to
                            prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands.
                            Adrenal glands produce natural corticosteroid cortisol, which has
                            immunosuppresive effect (among many other). It is pretty normal to
                            suppose that there would never be autoimmune diseases if adrenal
                            glands worked well so, being insufficiently active, they are always
                            involved in immune mediated diseases.

                            I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                            immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs, but
                            with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse effects.
                            In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                            cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                            hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when respond
                            to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                            There was no need for pancreatic enzymes supplement. It is used in the
                            case of pancreatic exocrine insufficiency (which is rare in cats), and
                            is contraindicated in acute pancreatitis. This is heart group, so we
                            shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was typical
                            small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                            pancreatic insufficiency.

                            I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is no
                            time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                            applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                            health, but in the cases of serious diseases.

                            < I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. >

                            Thanks!

                            Many regards from Deda
                          • toomany_kittys
                            Deda, My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated, prednisolone is used in a
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 9 8:56 AM
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                              Deda,
                              My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such
                              as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated,
                              prednisolone is used in a very high dose for a short duration which
                              then often suppresses the symptoms for years - not in lower doses for
                              life. The below drugs aren't used in this manner for this condition -
                              in extremely high dose for short duration. Please note my original
                              stmt below 'They are not without serious adverse affects.'

                              Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                              used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                              adverse affects.

                              > I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                              > immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs,
                              but
                              > with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse
                              effects.
                              > In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                              > cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                              > hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when
                              respond
                              > to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                              >
                              If I recall correctly, you brought up the IBD. Believe me, the stool
                              from pancreatic insufficiency is not always 'just loose, pale and
                              greasy'.

                              This is heart group, so we
                              > shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was
                              typical
                              > small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                              > pancreatic insufficiency.

                              I completely disagree with the stmt below. In an emergency situation,
                              medications are often important but not always 'when disease
                              develops'. Yes, medications are important for some diseases but with
                              many, such as IBD, alternative treatments such as accupuncture,
                              Chinese Herbal medicines, supplements, etc. and diet changes work
                              very well. The methods don't have to applied on a long-term basis. My
                              HCM kitty had IBD (both diagnosed by ultrasound), and we successfully
                              used alternative methods. He no longer needs the accupuncture nor the
                              Chinese Herbal meds for it. The IBD has resolved itself.
                              Also, for HCM have you read the recent post where the one cat who
                              reacted adversely to Atenolol has had improvement with the supplement
                              Cardio Strength? At some point, he will probably require meds, but
                              the supplement has reversed the disease process to a degree.
                              >
                              > I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is
                              no
                              > time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                              > applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                              > health, but in the cases of serious diseases.


                              You're right, this is a heart group. If you would like to further
                              this discussion, feel free to email me.

                              El
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