Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience

Expand Messages
  • rzivorad
    As I told, I use mirtazapine at the dosage of 0.4mg/kg body weight (exactly 0.37mg/kg which equals 0.17mg/lb). It is really small dosage and I don t see any
    Message 1 of 21 , May 3, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      As I told, I use mirtazapine at the dosage of 0.4mg/kg body weight
      (exactly 0.37mg/kg which equals 0.17mg/lb). It is really small dosage
      and I don't see any change except slight agitation, though I must
      admit that I didn't control my cat's heart rate after administration
      of mirtazapine. She has dilated cardiomyopathy, but she also acquired
      hepatic disease, lost appetite and that all finished with hepatic
      lipidosis. She recovered from it, but still there are moments when she
      refuses to eat. What else can I (or anyone) do, but to use appetite
      stimulant?

      Is Pepcid necessary? It cures peptic ulcers and similar disorders
      caused by histamine reaction in one's stomach. Maybe she doesn't need
      it at all. Why don't you try sodium bicarbonate instead of Pepcid.
      Joseph W. Bartges from The University of Tennessee, Knoxville, in his
      presentation at the 2003 WSAVA congress, advocated its use in CRF
      patients (cats, of course) for addressing metabolic acidosis. It's
      also good for stomach acidosis and, as far as I know, doesn't have
      side effects. I used it for that purpose in my deceased cat with CRF,
      and I was satisfied. And I think that weaning off the famotidine
      (Pepcid) is not necessary, it can be discontinued immediately (I used
      ranitidine, it is the medication of the same class, for my own
      stomach, they didn't mention weaning off it. I also searched the web
      for famotidine, no one word about weaning).

      Best wishes from Deda
    • C. Halligan
      Although my heart kitty does not have IBD thank god, I do have a kitty with IBD. She was given cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and an antacid.
      Message 2 of 21 , May 3, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Although my heart kitty does not have IBD thank god, I do have a kitty with IBD. She was given cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and an antacid. Neither worked for her and she her IBD got worse. She was on prednisone for a while and I recently weened her off because I do not like what it will do to her long term. She gets bi-weekly homeopathic injections with 5mg of dexamethasone (another steroid, similar to prednisone) and this seems to be working (cross your fingers).
        I certainly hope my heart kitty does not develop this nasty disease. There was talk in this forum of an IBD group. Can someone provide me with the link so I can talk with others about IBD/IBS? Thanks and I hope your kitties are doing well.

        Cindy
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: psychoforkaatz
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 6:11 AM
        Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience


        Cyproheptadine is the name of the appetite stimulant I referred to in
        my last email. This drug was prescribed to my heart kitty
        (misdiagnosed as asthma, heart issues were unknown at the time), it
        was prescribed in an extreme overdose and nearly killed my kitty. I
        think it did damage to her heart that led to her subsequent death.

        That being said, many people I know on other lists, such as kidney
        and IBD, do use appetite stimulants with great success, including
        cypro. HOWEVER, you must seriously weigh the risks of giving any of
        these stimulants to a heart kitty as they are not recommended. They
        are stimulants and can raise the heart rate as well as a host of
        other side effects. Even Pepcid which many doctors suggest for upset
        tummy is not recommended for heart kitties. I am going by the
        information that comes as inserts with the drugs, and regarding the
        appetite stimulants, various vets who say they should not be given.

        My Josie is going thru loss of appetite issues right now, I think due
        to aspirin. She also has IBD and other multiple issues so appetite is
        a frequent problem. I use Slippery Elm Bark syrup which soothes the
        tummy (it is not an appetite stimulant but helps make the tummy not
        upset which can increase appetite), and I just keep trying foods and
        assist feed her to jump start her appetite again. Anything I can to
        get her eating. I found out that most of the time she loses her
        appetite it is due to an underlying infection and after a course of
        antibiotics she regains her appetite. Some AB's do upset the tummy
        too, we have had good luck with Zeniquin, not such good luck with
        amoxicillin or clavamox.

        I hope this helps. Anyone who has a heart kitty that uses appetite
        stimulants please feel free to weigh in here.

        Good luck,
        Kendall and Josie

        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi again, Andrea!
        >
        > I also send this mail as public, supposing that somebody else has
        > problem with his/her cat's poor appetite.
        >
        > I have forgotten appetite stimulant in my previous male. It is well
        > known to me how great problem presents feeding the cat who doesn't
        > want to eat. I use Remeron (it is antidepressant, its generic name
        is
        > mirtazapine), the dose is 0.4mg/kg of body weight. Problem with
        > Remeron is that it comes in pretty large tablets (15mg, 30mg and so
        > on), so it is hard to divide it into small pieces of 1.5-2mg for an
        > average cat. Ask some pharmacist if he/she can prepare dosages for
        > your cat (it is so-called compounding pharmacy). Remeron is given
        only
        > twice a week, because it remains long time in cat's body.
        > Other medication which you can try is easier to apply, because it
        > comes in 4mg tablets. Total dose for a cat is 1mg, so it must be
        > divided in quarters. It's generic name is cyproheptadine (Americans
        > know it under brand name Periactin), it is antihistamine and is
        given,
        > usually, once daily, but it may happen that your cat has to have it
        > only once in few days, that is individual. If you notice that 1mg
        > dosage is too high (cat is very agitated), you should lessen it
        until
        > you find proper dose for your cat.
        >
        > Keep in mind that both medications cause agitation in cats, but
        don't
        > worry about it, you just have to establish the dose which your cat
        > tolerates best, while appetite is still increased.
        >
        > Best wishes from Deda
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Carol
        hi Cindy, Here s a link to one IBD group I found. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD/ Carol and Snowball and the gang ... wrote: There was talk in
        Message 3 of 21 , May 3, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          hi Cindy,

          Here's a link to one IBD group I found.
          http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD/


          Carol and Snowball and the gang


          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C. Halligan" <challigan2@...>
          wrote:
          There was talk in this forum of an IBD group. Can someone provide me
          with the link so I can talk with others about IBD/IBS? Thanks and I
          hope your kitties are doing well.
          >
          > Cindy
        • rzivorad
          Hi Cindy! I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago. It s nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both knowledgeable and
          Message 4 of 21 , May 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Cindy!

            I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago.
            It's nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both
            knowledgeable and also not so knowledgeable people there. If you want to
            learn of something, then learn from an expert. Here is a link to an
            article written by expert, it will help you much about IBD:

            http://maxshouse.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease.htm

            I think you were wrong when you stopped administering corticosteroids,
            you'll see why when you read this article.

            I am sorry, I know this message has nothing in common with heart
            diseases, but I see that cats of many people here , besides heart
            problems, also have problems with IBD. This article is worth reading!

            Many regards, Deda
          • C. Halligan
            Hi Deda, Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as expert
            Message 5 of 21 , May 4, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Deda,

              Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as 'expert' because of the perspectives these people tend to hold. Many allopathics are ignorant of homeopathic methods. Supportive methods were not mentioned such as including probiotics after antibiotic use.

              The ontology of veterinary medicine conflicts with non-allopathic methods and it doesn't help that pharmaceutical companies provide the capitalistic framework for educating future veterinarians and the maintenance of the vet system.

              Anyway, do I think that I was wrong to stop Chloe's steroid? I did it properly, ie. weening her off of it. For now, I am trying periodic injections of dexamethasone including homeopathic means. Do they work against each other? Theoretically yes but if I do not administer both the long term affects of the steroid use may occur more quickly.

              Thank you again Deda for the article. I think it succinctly articulates this nasty disease.

              Cindy
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rzivorad
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 8:11 AM
              Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience


              Hi Cindy!

              I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago.
              It's nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both
              knowledgeable and also not so knowledgeable people there. If you want to
              learn of something, then learn from an expert. Here is a link to an
              article written by expert, it will help you much about IBD:

              http://maxshouse.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease.htm

              I think you were wrong when you stopped administering corticosteroids,
              you'll see why when you read this article.

              I am sorry, I know this message has nothing in common with heart
              diseases, but I see that cats of many people here , besides heart
              problems, also have problems with IBD. This article is worth reading!

              Many regards, Deda





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • rzivorad
              Hi Cindy! I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The therapy
              Message 6 of 21 , May 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Cindy!

                I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
                in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
                therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
                Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
                Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
                opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
                companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
                of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
                can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

                I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
                deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
                course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
                common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
                cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

                When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
                that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
                because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
                place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

                All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
                you.

                Many regards from Deda



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • katy4282003
                actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus making the cat unable to
                Message 7 of 21 , May 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont
                  have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus
                  making the cat unable to fight infection just like in people. the
                  risk for diabeties and ulcers are also increased. steroids can
                  exacerbate heart disease. many experienced vets also give yearly
                  vaccinations but we know that isnt safe for our pets. i am glad to
                  hear that your cat hasnt had adverse reactions to steroids but that
                  is not always the case and steroids should be used with caution in my
                  opinion.
                  >^..^<
                  katy & belle



                  > When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                  > wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you
                  said
                  > that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good
                  reason,
                  > because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can
                  take
                  > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't
                  have
                  > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term
                  use of
                  > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect
                  (it
                  > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that
                  even
                  > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
                  which
                  > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
                  >
                  > All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it!
                  Thank
                  > you.
                  >
                  > Many regards from Deda
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • toomany_kittys
                  Hi Deda, Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don t have ... of ... which ... I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 5, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Deda,

                    Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                    > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use
                    of
                    > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                    > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                    > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
                    which
                    > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.


                    I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
                    different experience with my kitty Jasmin and prednisolone.
                    Jasmin, 3 yrs old now, has a neurological condition called
                    demylineating neuropathy. It is an auto-immune disease that came
                    immediately after the FeLV vax and anaesthesia/spay done at the same
                    time with a previous caregiver. This was diagnosed by a neurologist.
                    The symptoms are severe ataxia, eventual limb paralysis, twitching,
                    thin coat, etc.. Of course her people then returned her to a shelter.
                    The only allopathic treatment is prednisolone. The neurologist put her
                    on a six mth treatment course of it. She is still on it after one year.
                    He told me of side effects. She has them. Her bladder walls have
                    thickened (common side effect), debris in her urine. It also is very
                    hard on the heart and her heart is checked periodically. She is being
                    weaned off of it but damage has been done by prolonged prednisolone
                    therapy. It did however, relieve the symptoms for the most part until
                    recently.
                    Now she goes to an integrative vet, along with the neurologist and we
                    will be trying alternative methods and supplements.
                    I truly wish that I'd never agreed to her being put on the prednisolone
                    for a prolonged period of time.
                    I'm glad the pred worked for your little one with no side effects. My
                    experience with it is the opposite.
                    El
                  • psychoforkaatz
                    The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since Josie was also
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 6, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I
                      have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since
                      Josie was also diagnosed with heart disease I havent been there much. I
                      am glad that I personally chose to steer away from the use of regular
                      steroids as they would be detrimental to Josies heart condition, they
                      promote fluid retention and Josie has been having serious problems with
                      that lately. I use supplements and food changes and most recently a
                      long course of antibiotics to help with a recurring underlying
                      infection and Josie's IBD is much better. She was not a regular vomiter
                      but had constant diarreah. I think the food changes helped her the
                      most. So while many people have no choice after trying everything else,
                      to use steroids, each case is different and I think the fewer meds we
                      can get by using the better. I already spend 24/7 administering meds,
                      supplements and feedings to Josie, its a good thing I have no life.....

                      Kendall and Josie
                    • shannon5@charter.net
                      Hi Deda, I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 6, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Deda,
                        I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a steriod shot. I think heart failure qualifies as a serious side effect.
                        Shannon
                        ---- rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:

                        > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                        > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                        > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                        > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                        > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                        > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
                        > Many regards from Deda
                      • C. Halligan
                        Hi Deda, Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid? I actually had
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 6, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Deda,

                          Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid?

                          I actually had been weening Chloe very very slowly off the prednisone (about 2.5 months). She recently saw her integrative vet and she said that the steroid will be damaging her at a cellular level or a level that we cannot see at this time and will not see until it is too late. Vets jump on steroids because as a last resort they are wonder drugs BUT long term the effects are usually devastating, among Cushing's disease being the worst.

                          I am back to square one with food elimination and hoping the supplements will work. Cindy
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: rzivorad
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:05 PM
                          Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience



                          Hi Cindy!

                          I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
                          in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
                          therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
                          Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
                          Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
                          opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
                          companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
                          of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
                          can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

                          I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
                          deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
                          course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
                          common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
                          cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

                          When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                          wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
                          that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
                          because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
                          place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                          serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                          prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                          could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                          long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                          articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

                          All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
                          you.

                          Many regards from Deda

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • rzivorad
                          Hi El! I can t argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong. Maybe we
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 7, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi El!

                            I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose
                            articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong.
                            Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see that
                            there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                            there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used, especially
                            in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                            Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                            azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                            very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                            recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                            also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                            alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in question.

                            When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                            prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.

                            Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such experience.

                            Many regards from Deda
                          • rzivorad
                            No, she doesn t use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I mentioned. It lasted
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 7, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              No, she doesn't use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she
                              was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I
                              mentioned. It lasted only 8 weeks. Since then she never had any
                              problem of that kind. It was enteritis, inflammation of small bowel,
                              and was manifested as so-called small bowel diarrhea (diarrhea which
                              consists of undigested food, smelling like the food that was eaten).

                              By the way, I prefer the term corticosteroids, in order to
                              differentiate them from anabolic steroid, which are really dangerous
                              medications.

                              Many regards from Deda
                            • rzivorad
                              Hi Katy! I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar things. I can t argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 7, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Katy!

                                I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar
                                things. I can't argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                                corticosteroids. I accept every experience with respect.
                                Unfortunately, many authors whose articles on the use of
                                corticosteroids I have read say what I said. I also read statements
                                similar to mine on some forums. It is obvious that one has to collect
                                as much experiences as possible. When you say that corticosteroids
                                lower immunity, bear in mind that that is the goal of the therapy for
                                immune mediated diseases (like IBD). Low immunity at that period can
                                be (and usually is) compensated by concurrent use of antibiotics. We
                                can discuss adverse effects on heart and other organs, but immunity
                                must be lowered in the case of immune mediated diseases.

                                Thanks for your mail. It will help me to consider the use of
                                corticosteroids more carefully next time.

                                Kindest regards, Deda
                              • toomany_kittys
                                Deda, Thank you for your post and the information. Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6 mths can sometimes suppress the
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 7, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Deda,
                                  Thank you for your post and the information.
                                  Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6
                                  mths can sometimes suppress the auto-immune disease symptoms for
                                  months or years. This is done for many humans also with Multiple
                                  Sclerosis when symptoms are severe. This was the neurologist's plan.
                                  The vet had a different plan to wean slower and maybe not at all,
                                  depending on any return of symptoms.
                                  Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                                  used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                                  adverse affects.
                                  Currently, Jasmin the cat is being given hydrocortisone alternatively
                                  with the pred to wean her off the pred. It isn't as strong and has
                                  lesser side affects. She is also on an adrenal support for the next
                                  3 - 6 mths. The integrative vet has found that diseases that respond
                                  quickly to pred often involve the adrenal glands.

                                  I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. The yellow soft stool
                                  does indicate undigested food - the yellow is bile. Were you giving
                                  her digestive enzymes? Pancreatic enzymes? supplements for gut
                                  health? I recently had a cat have acute pancreatitis and the yellow
                                  stool that you speak of and within 3 weeks her stool was back to
                                  normal, as were her pancreatic numbers, etc.. She was given an herbal
                                  formula with digestive enzymes, adrenal support, immune support, etc.
                                  and the problem resolved very quickly. (I have many foster cats)

                                  Sometimes drugs are absolutely necessary, but often there are better
                                  solutions.

                                  El



                                  -- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi El!
                                  >
                                  > I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets,
                                  whose
                                  > articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply
                                  wrong.
                                  > Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see
                                  that
                                  > there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                                  > there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used,
                                  especially
                                  > in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                                  > Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                                  > azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                                  > very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                                  > recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                                  > also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                                  > alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in
                                  question.
                                  >
                                  > When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                                  > prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such
                                  experience.
                                  >
                                  > Many regards from Deda
                                  >
                                • rzivorad
                                  Hi El! I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands. Adrenal glands produce
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 9, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi El!

                                    I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to
                                    prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands.
                                    Adrenal glands produce natural corticosteroid cortisol, which has
                                    immunosuppresive effect (among many other). It is pretty normal to
                                    suppose that there would never be autoimmune diseases if adrenal
                                    glands worked well so, being insufficiently active, they are always
                                    involved in immune mediated diseases.

                                    I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                                    immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs, but
                                    with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse effects.
                                    In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                                    cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                                    hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when respond
                                    to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                                    There was no need for pancreatic enzymes supplement. It is used in the
                                    case of pancreatic exocrine insufficiency (which is rare in cats), and
                                    is contraindicated in acute pancreatitis. This is heart group, so we
                                    shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was typical
                                    small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                                    pancreatic insufficiency.

                                    I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is no
                                    time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                                    applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                                    health, but in the cases of serious diseases.

                                    < I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. >

                                    Thanks!

                                    Many regards from Deda
                                  • toomany_kittys
                                    Deda, My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated, prednisolone is used in a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 9, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Deda,
                                      My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such
                                      as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated,
                                      prednisolone is used in a very high dose for a short duration which
                                      then often suppresses the symptoms for years - not in lower doses for
                                      life. The below drugs aren't used in this manner for this condition -
                                      in extremely high dose for short duration. Please note my original
                                      stmt below 'They are not without serious adverse affects.'

                                      Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                                      used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                                      adverse affects.

                                      > I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                                      > immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs,
                                      but
                                      > with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse
                                      effects.
                                      > In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                                      > cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                                      > hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when
                                      respond
                                      > to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                                      >
                                      If I recall correctly, you brought up the IBD. Believe me, the stool
                                      from pancreatic insufficiency is not always 'just loose, pale and
                                      greasy'.

                                      This is heart group, so we
                                      > shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was
                                      typical
                                      > small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                                      > pancreatic insufficiency.

                                      I completely disagree with the stmt below. In an emergency situation,
                                      medications are often important but not always 'when disease
                                      develops'. Yes, medications are important for some diseases but with
                                      many, such as IBD, alternative treatments such as accupuncture,
                                      Chinese Herbal medicines, supplements, etc. and diet changes work
                                      very well. The methods don't have to applied on a long-term basis. My
                                      HCM kitty had IBD (both diagnosed by ultrasound), and we successfully
                                      used alternative methods. He no longer needs the accupuncture nor the
                                      Chinese Herbal meds for it. The IBD has resolved itself.
                                      Also, for HCM have you read the recent post where the one cat who
                                      reacted adversely to Atenolol has had improvement with the supplement
                                      Cardio Strength? At some point, he will probably require meds, but
                                      the supplement has reversed the disease process to a degree.
                                      >
                                      > I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is
                                      no
                                      > time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                                      > applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                                      > health, but in the cases of serious diseases.


                                      You're right, this is a heart group. If you would like to further
                                      this discussion, feel free to email me.

                                      El
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.