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Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience

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  • Carol
    I struggle with this all the time with Snowball who besides HCM also has IBD, chronic pancreatitis, hyperthyroid and CRF. Snowball is so nauseated all the
    Message 1 of 21 , May 2, 2008
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      I struggle with this all the time with Snowball who besides HCM also
      has IBD, chronic pancreatitis, hyperthyroid and CRF. Snowball is so
      nauseated all the time, really - 24 hours a day - that she just won't
      ever eat on her own without the drugs... which I hate.

      We tried Cyproheptadine, and it worked so-so for the eating, but she
      was still nauseated and throwing up all the time. And, yes, it did
      raise her heart rate and respiration.

      In March we started using the Mirtazapine, which is also an anti-
      nausea med in addition to being an appetite stimulant. The
      Cyproheptadine is only a stimulant. We call it Meow-tazapine, because
      Snowball gets very meowy and "happy" the first day on it. I cut the
      tablets down into teeny tiny 1/16th pieces...the dose the vet gave us
      was 1/4 of a 15mg tablet, but after reading through the pancreatitis
      and CRF groups' archives, most people get by with the 1/16 to 1/8 of a
      tablet, so that's what we gave Snowball.

      The Mirtazapine we give every 72 hours, and the first day she feels
      really pretty okay, will eat well and acts like her old self without
      any nausea to speak of...but the next two days aren't as good and
      sometimes getting through those next two days is like she didn't even
      get the Mirtazapine. Sometimes it only works for one day and the rest
      of the time till the next dose, she feels crummy.

      The Mirtazapine also raises her heart rate and respiration. Her
      sleeping/resting heart rate is 160 to 200 and her respiration is 28 to
      32...and that's when she's asleep! So that part of it does worry me,
      but seriously...without the Mirtazapine she just won't eat at all and
      her nausea and vomiting wipe her out.

      We've tried slippery elm bark for Snowball, actually still give it to
      her every night to get her through the wee hours of the mornings when
      her tummy seems to be the worst, but by itself, it didn't do the trick
      for her.

      We also do give her the Pepcid (sigh)... and that raises the heart
      rate too... so we're slowly trying to wean her off of it, reducing her
      dose slowly over the course of however long it takes to get down to
      nothing, to see if she can be without that one at least.

      While I'm not usually one to advocate drugs, because I do like to try
      to treat things holistically, sometimes there just isn't a benign way
      to deal with the symptoms...and I say that again, "treat the
      symptoms", because that's all we're doing. We're not "healing"
      or "curing" anything, only covering up a symptom of what's really
      going on, and that part of it bothers me too...because I know that
      even though Snowball may "feel better" on the Mirtazapine, I know it's
      not doing anything to "cure" her IBD or pancreatitis, which are the
      biggest concerns for her right now. But on the other hand, I can't
      let her feel so bad all the time just because I don't like using the
      drugs...so I weigh one against the other all the time and choose to
      give her the Mirtazapine and hope every day that it's not destroying
      her heart too much.

      It's definitely a serious sitation with heart kitties, giving them
      appetite stimulants and things like Pepcid. I'm always in the back of
      my mind, worrying what it's doing to her heart.

      If I could get Snowball to not be nauseated all the time and get her
      to eat without the stimulants, I would rather have it that way.

      hugs,
      Carol and Snowball and the gang




      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "psychoforkaatz"
      <psychoforkaatz@...> wrote:

      HOWEVER, you must seriously weigh the risks of giving any of these
      stimulants to a heart kitty as they are not recommended. They are
      stimulants and can raise the heart rate as well as a host of other
      side effects. Even Pepcid which many doctors suggest for upset tummy
      is not recommended for heart kitties. I am going by the information
      that comes as inserts with the drugs, and regarding the appetite
      stimulants, various vets who say they should not be given.
    • psychoforkaatz
      I can completely understand your struggle. And I realize that sometimes you have to make choices, which is of course why I did not say not to use these meds
      Message 2 of 21 , May 2, 2008
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        I can completely understand your struggle. And I realize that
        sometimes you have to make choices, which is of course why I did not
        say not to use these meds but to weigh the risks and benefits which
        obviously you have to do on a daily basis. I empathize with you
        having to watch Snowball go thru all this.

        Just a note, Josie has IBD and possibly even pancreatitis and the
        rest except the CRF which turned out to be infections from kidney
        stones. I kept thinking that there was an underlying infection going
        on and I was right. We put her on a month of Zenequin (antibiotic)and
        her appetite issues and diarreah and spitting up, kidney and liver
        numbers (Oh yeah, cholangiohepatitis too)normalized. After being off
        it for two months, her kidney numbers went up again so back on the
        zenequin due to kidney infection, afterwards due to blood in the
        urine we found out she had stones via xray. We are going to pulse her
        on and off the antibiotics every few months as it seems infection is
        actually what is causing most of her problems, including what we
        thought at first were clot related heart attack and three strokes
        which I now believe were a pancreatic attack and hepatic
        encephalopathy (she went aggressive and mental like a stroke but due
        to infection reaching her brain). So for anyone who has just gone by
        what their vets told them and it was more guesswork than proof (like
        I did), trust your instincts. If I hadnt my cat would not be alive
        right now but I kept telling my vet I suspected infection and amoxi
        for two weeks just didnt cut it. She is a different cat after the
        longterm AB's.

        Kendall and Josie (who now has lost her appetite due to the aspirin I
        think!)



        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
        >
        > I struggle with this all the time with Snowball who besides HCM
        also
        > has IBD, chronic pancreatitis, hyperthyroid and CRF. Snowball is
        so
        > nauseated all the time, really - 24 hours a day - that she just
        won't
        > ever eat on her own without the drugs... which I hate.
        >
        > We tried Cyproheptadine, and it worked so-so for the eating, but
        she
        > was still nauseated and throwing up all the time. And, yes, it did
        > raise her heart rate and respiration.
        >
        > In March we started using the Mirtazapine, which is also an anti-
        > nausea med in addition to being an appetite stimulant. The
        > Cyproheptadine is only a stimulant. We call it Meow-tazapine,
        because
        > Snowball gets very meowy and "happy" the first day on it. I cut
        the
        > tablets down into teeny tiny 1/16th pieces...the dose the vet gave
        us
        > was 1/4 of a 15mg tablet, but after reading through the
        pancreatitis
        > and CRF groups' archives, most people get by with the 1/16 to 1/8
        of a
        > tablet, so that's what we gave Snowball.
        >
        > The Mirtazapine we give every 72 hours, and the first day she feels
        > really pretty okay, will eat well and acts like her old self
        without
        > any nausea to speak of...but the next two days aren't as good and
        > sometimes getting through those next two days is like she didn't
        even
        > get the Mirtazapine. Sometimes it only works for one day and the
        rest
        > of the time till the next dose, she feels crummy.
        >
        > The Mirtazapine also raises her heart rate and respiration. Her
        > sleeping/resting heart rate is 160 to 200 and her respiration is 28
        to
        > 32...and that's when she's asleep! So that part of it does worry
        me,
        > but seriously...without the Mirtazapine she just won't eat at all
        and
        > her nausea and vomiting wipe her out.
        >
        > We've tried slippery elm bark for Snowball, actually still give it
        to
        > her every night to get her through the wee hours of the mornings
        when
        > her tummy seems to be the worst, but by itself, it didn't do the
        trick
        > for her.
        >
        > We also do give her the Pepcid (sigh)... and that raises the heart
        > rate too... so we're slowly trying to wean her off of it, reducing
        her
        > dose slowly over the course of however long it takes to get down to
        > nothing, to see if she can be without that one at least.
        >
        > While I'm not usually one to advocate drugs, because I do like to
        try
        > to treat things holistically, sometimes there just isn't a benign
        way
        > to deal with the symptoms...and I say that again, "treat the
        > symptoms", because that's all we're doing. We're not "healing"
        > or "curing" anything, only covering up a symptom of what's really
        > going on, and that part of it bothers me too...because I know that
        > even though Snowball may "feel better" on the Mirtazapine, I know
        it's
        > not doing anything to "cure" her IBD or pancreatitis, which are the
        > biggest concerns for her right now. But on the other hand, I can't
        > let her feel so bad all the time just because I don't like using
        the
        > drugs...so I weigh one against the other all the time and choose to
        > give her the Mirtazapine and hope every day that it's not
        destroying
        > her heart too much.
        >
        > It's definitely a serious sitation with heart kitties, giving them
        > appetite stimulants and things like Pepcid. I'm always in the back
        of
        > my mind, worrying what it's doing to her heart.
        >
        > If I could get Snowball to not be nauseated all the time and get
        her
        > to eat without the stimulants, I would rather have it that way.
        >
        > hugs,
        > Carol and Snowball and the gang
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "psychoforkaatz"
        > <psychoforkaatz@> wrote:
        >
        > HOWEVER, you must seriously weigh the risks of giving any of these
        > stimulants to a heart kitty as they are not recommended. They are
        > stimulants and can raise the heart rate as well as a host of other
        > side effects. Even Pepcid which many doctors suggest for upset
        tummy
        > is not recommended for heart kitties. I am going by the information
        > that comes as inserts with the drugs, and regarding the appetite
        > stimulants, various vets who say they should not be given.
        >
      • rzivorad
        As I told, I use mirtazapine at the dosage of 0.4mg/kg body weight (exactly 0.37mg/kg which equals 0.17mg/lb). It is really small dosage and I don t see any
        Message 3 of 21 , May 3, 2008
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          As I told, I use mirtazapine at the dosage of 0.4mg/kg body weight
          (exactly 0.37mg/kg which equals 0.17mg/lb). It is really small dosage
          and I don't see any change except slight agitation, though I must
          admit that I didn't control my cat's heart rate after administration
          of mirtazapine. She has dilated cardiomyopathy, but she also acquired
          hepatic disease, lost appetite and that all finished with hepatic
          lipidosis. She recovered from it, but still there are moments when she
          refuses to eat. What else can I (or anyone) do, but to use appetite
          stimulant?

          Is Pepcid necessary? It cures peptic ulcers and similar disorders
          caused by histamine reaction in one's stomach. Maybe she doesn't need
          it at all. Why don't you try sodium bicarbonate instead of Pepcid.
          Joseph W. Bartges from The University of Tennessee, Knoxville, in his
          presentation at the 2003 WSAVA congress, advocated its use in CRF
          patients (cats, of course) for addressing metabolic acidosis. It's
          also good for stomach acidosis and, as far as I know, doesn't have
          side effects. I used it for that purpose in my deceased cat with CRF,
          and I was satisfied. And I think that weaning off the famotidine
          (Pepcid) is not necessary, it can be discontinued immediately (I used
          ranitidine, it is the medication of the same class, for my own
          stomach, they didn't mention weaning off it. I also searched the web
          for famotidine, no one word about weaning).

          Best wishes from Deda
        • C. Halligan
          Although my heart kitty does not have IBD thank god, I do have a kitty with IBD. She was given cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and an antacid.
          Message 4 of 21 , May 3, 2008
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            Although my heart kitty does not have IBD thank god, I do have a kitty with IBD. She was given cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and an antacid. Neither worked for her and she her IBD got worse. She was on prednisone for a while and I recently weened her off because I do not like what it will do to her long term. She gets bi-weekly homeopathic injections with 5mg of dexamethasone (another steroid, similar to prednisone) and this seems to be working (cross your fingers).
            I certainly hope my heart kitty does not develop this nasty disease. There was talk in this forum of an IBD group. Can someone provide me with the link so I can talk with others about IBD/IBS? Thanks and I hope your kitties are doing well.

            Cindy
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: psychoforkaatz
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 6:11 AM
            Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience


            Cyproheptadine is the name of the appetite stimulant I referred to in
            my last email. This drug was prescribed to my heart kitty
            (misdiagnosed as asthma, heart issues were unknown at the time), it
            was prescribed in an extreme overdose and nearly killed my kitty. I
            think it did damage to her heart that led to her subsequent death.

            That being said, many people I know on other lists, such as kidney
            and IBD, do use appetite stimulants with great success, including
            cypro. HOWEVER, you must seriously weigh the risks of giving any of
            these stimulants to a heart kitty as they are not recommended. They
            are stimulants and can raise the heart rate as well as a host of
            other side effects. Even Pepcid which many doctors suggest for upset
            tummy is not recommended for heart kitties. I am going by the
            information that comes as inserts with the drugs, and regarding the
            appetite stimulants, various vets who say they should not be given.

            My Josie is going thru loss of appetite issues right now, I think due
            to aspirin. She also has IBD and other multiple issues so appetite is
            a frequent problem. I use Slippery Elm Bark syrup which soothes the
            tummy (it is not an appetite stimulant but helps make the tummy not
            upset which can increase appetite), and I just keep trying foods and
            assist feed her to jump start her appetite again. Anything I can to
            get her eating. I found out that most of the time she loses her
            appetite it is due to an underlying infection and after a course of
            antibiotics she regains her appetite. Some AB's do upset the tummy
            too, we have had good luck with Zeniquin, not such good luck with
            amoxicillin or clavamox.

            I hope this helps. Anyone who has a heart kitty that uses appetite
            stimulants please feel free to weigh in here.

            Good luck,
            Kendall and Josie

            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi again, Andrea!
            >
            > I also send this mail as public, supposing that somebody else has
            > problem with his/her cat's poor appetite.
            >
            > I have forgotten appetite stimulant in my previous male. It is well
            > known to me how great problem presents feeding the cat who doesn't
            > want to eat. I use Remeron (it is antidepressant, its generic name
            is
            > mirtazapine), the dose is 0.4mg/kg of body weight. Problem with
            > Remeron is that it comes in pretty large tablets (15mg, 30mg and so
            > on), so it is hard to divide it into small pieces of 1.5-2mg for an
            > average cat. Ask some pharmacist if he/she can prepare dosages for
            > your cat (it is so-called compounding pharmacy). Remeron is given
            only
            > twice a week, because it remains long time in cat's body.
            > Other medication which you can try is easier to apply, because it
            > comes in 4mg tablets. Total dose for a cat is 1mg, so it must be
            > divided in quarters. It's generic name is cyproheptadine (Americans
            > know it under brand name Periactin), it is antihistamine and is
            given,
            > usually, once daily, but it may happen that your cat has to have it
            > only once in few days, that is individual. If you notice that 1mg
            > dosage is too high (cat is very agitated), you should lessen it
            until
            > you find proper dose for your cat.
            >
            > Keep in mind that both medications cause agitation in cats, but
            don't
            > worry about it, you just have to establish the dose which your cat
            > tolerates best, while appetite is still increased.
            >
            > Best wishes from Deda
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carol
            hi Cindy, Here s a link to one IBD group I found. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD/ Carol and Snowball and the gang ... wrote: There was talk in
            Message 5 of 21 , May 3, 2008
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              hi Cindy,

              Here's a link to one IBD group I found.
              http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineIBD/


              Carol and Snowball and the gang


              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "C. Halligan" <challigan2@...>
              wrote:
              There was talk in this forum of an IBD group. Can someone provide me
              with the link so I can talk with others about IBD/IBS? Thanks and I
              hope your kitties are doing well.
              >
              > Cindy
            • rzivorad
              Hi Cindy! I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago. It s nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both knowledgeable and
              Message 6 of 21 , May 4, 2008
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                Hi Cindy!

                I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago.
                It's nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both
                knowledgeable and also not so knowledgeable people there. If you want to
                learn of something, then learn from an expert. Here is a link to an
                article written by expert, it will help you much about IBD:

                http://maxshouse.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease.htm

                I think you were wrong when you stopped administering corticosteroids,
                you'll see why when you read this article.

                I am sorry, I know this message has nothing in common with heart
                diseases, but I see that cats of many people here , besides heart
                problems, also have problems with IBD. This article is worth reading!

                Many regards, Deda
              • C. Halligan
                Hi Deda, Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as expert
                Message 7 of 21 , May 4, 2008
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                  Hi Deda,

                  Thank you for the article. I read it and unfortunately I have read similar findings/statements before. I am wary about using terms such as 'expert' because of the perspectives these people tend to hold. Many allopathics are ignorant of homeopathic methods. Supportive methods were not mentioned such as including probiotics after antibiotic use.

                  The ontology of veterinary medicine conflicts with non-allopathic methods and it doesn't help that pharmaceutical companies provide the capitalistic framework for educating future veterinarians and the maintenance of the vet system.

                  Anyway, do I think that I was wrong to stop Chloe's steroid? I did it properly, ie. weening her off of it. For now, I am trying periodic injections of dexamethasone including homeopathic means. Do they work against each other? Theoretically yes but if I do not administer both the long term affects of the steroid use may occur more quickly.

                  Thank you again Deda for the article. I think it succinctly articulates this nasty disease.

                  Cindy
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: rzivorad
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 8:11 AM
                  Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience


                  Hi Cindy!

                  I am little experienced in IBD, my cat was ill with it 5 years ago.
                  It's nice to be the member of some forum, but there are both
                  knowledgeable and also not so knowledgeable people there. If you want to
                  learn of something, then learn from an expert. Here is a link to an
                  article written by expert, it will help you much about IBD:

                  http://maxshouse.com/inflammatory_bowel_disease.htm

                  I think you were wrong when you stopped administering corticosteroids,
                  you'll see why when you read this article.

                  I am sorry, I know this message has nothing in common with heart
                  diseases, but I see that cats of many people here , besides heart
                  problems, also have problems with IBD. This article is worth reading!

                  Many regards, Deda





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rzivorad
                  Hi Cindy! I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The therapy
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 5, 2008
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                    Hi Cindy!

                    I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
                    in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
                    therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
                    Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
                    Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
                    opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
                    companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
                    of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
                    can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

                    I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
                    deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
                    course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
                    common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
                    cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

                    When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                    wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
                    that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
                    because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
                    place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                    serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                    prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                    could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                    long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                    articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

                    All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
                    you.

                    Many regards from Deda



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • katy4282003
                    actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus making the cat unable to
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 5, 2008
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                      actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont
                      have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus
                      making the cat unable to fight infection just like in people. the
                      risk for diabeties and ulcers are also increased. steroids can
                      exacerbate heart disease. many experienced vets also give yearly
                      vaccinations but we know that isnt safe for our pets. i am glad to
                      hear that your cat hasnt had adverse reactions to steroids but that
                      is not always the case and steroids should be used with caution in my
                      opinion.
                      >^..^<
                      katy & belle



                      > When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                      > wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you
                      said
                      > that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good
                      reason,
                      > because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can
                      take
                      > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't
                      have
                      > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term
                      use of
                      > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect
                      (it
                      > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that
                      even
                      > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
                      which
                      > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
                      >
                      > All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it!
                      Thank
                      > you.
                      >
                      > Many regards from Deda
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • toomany_kittys
                      Hi Deda, Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don t have ... of ... which ... I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 5, 2008
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                        Hi Deda,

                        Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                        > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use
                        of
                        > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                        > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                        > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
                        which
                        > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.


                        I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
                        different experience with my kitty Jasmin and prednisolone.
                        Jasmin, 3 yrs old now, has a neurological condition called
                        demylineating neuropathy. It is an auto-immune disease that came
                        immediately after the FeLV vax and anaesthesia/spay done at the same
                        time with a previous caregiver. This was diagnosed by a neurologist.
                        The symptoms are severe ataxia, eventual limb paralysis, twitching,
                        thin coat, etc.. Of course her people then returned her to a shelter.
                        The only allopathic treatment is prednisolone. The neurologist put her
                        on a six mth treatment course of it. She is still on it after one year.
                        He told me of side effects. She has them. Her bladder walls have
                        thickened (common side effect), debris in her urine. It also is very
                        hard on the heart and her heart is checked periodically. She is being
                        weaned off of it but damage has been done by prolonged prednisolone
                        therapy. It did however, relieve the symptoms for the most part until
                        recently.
                        Now she goes to an integrative vet, along with the neurologist and we
                        will be trying alternative methods and supplements.
                        I truly wish that I'd never agreed to her being put on the prednisolone
                        for a prolonged period of time.
                        I'm glad the pred worked for your little one with no side effects. My
                        experience with it is the opposite.
                        El
                      • psychoforkaatz
                        The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since Josie was also
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 6, 2008
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                          The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I
                          have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since
                          Josie was also diagnosed with heart disease I havent been there much. I
                          am glad that I personally chose to steer away from the use of regular
                          steroids as they would be detrimental to Josies heart condition, they
                          promote fluid retention and Josie has been having serious problems with
                          that lately. I use supplements and food changes and most recently a
                          long course of antibiotics to help with a recurring underlying
                          infection and Josie's IBD is much better. She was not a regular vomiter
                          but had constant diarreah. I think the food changes helped her the
                          most. So while many people have no choice after trying everything else,
                          to use steroids, each case is different and I think the fewer meds we
                          can get by using the better. I already spend 24/7 administering meds,
                          supplements and feedings to Josie, its a good thing I have no life.....

                          Kendall and Josie
                        • shannon5@charter.net
                          Hi Deda, I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 6, 2008
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                            Hi Deda,
                            I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a steriod shot. I think heart failure qualifies as a serious side effect.
                            Shannon
                            ---- rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:

                            > place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                            > serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                            > prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                            > could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                            > long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                            > articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
                            > Many regards from Deda
                          • C. Halligan
                            Hi Deda, Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid? I actually had
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 6, 2008
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                              Hi Deda,

                              Thank you for your comments. It is good to hear that your cat no longer has IBD. Just curious...Is kitty still using the steroid?

                              I actually had been weening Chloe very very slowly off the prednisone (about 2.5 months). She recently saw her integrative vet and she said that the steroid will be damaging her at a cellular level or a level that we cannot see at this time and will not see until it is too late. Vets jump on steroids because as a last resort they are wonder drugs BUT long term the effects are usually devastating, among Cushing's disease being the worst.

                              I am back to square one with food elimination and hoping the supplements will work. Cindy
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: rzivorad
                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:05 PM
                              Subject: [FH] Re: Appetite stimulants, useful experience



                              Hi Cindy!

                              I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
                              in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
                              therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
                              Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
                              Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
                              opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
                              companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
                              of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
                              can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.

                              I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
                              deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
                              course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
                              common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
                              cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.

                              When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
                              wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
                              that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
                              because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
                              place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
                              serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
                              prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
                              could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
                              long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
                              articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.

                              All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
                              you.

                              Many regards from Deda

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • rzivorad
                              Hi El! I can t argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong. Maybe we
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 7, 2008
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                                Hi El!

                                I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets, whose
                                articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply wrong.
                                Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see that
                                there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                                there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used, especially
                                in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                                Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                                azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                                very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                                recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                                also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                                alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in question.

                                When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                                prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.

                                Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such experience.

                                Many regards from Deda
                              • rzivorad
                                No, she doesn t use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I mentioned. It lasted
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 7, 2008
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                                  No, she doesn't use them any more. It was long ago (in 2003), and she
                                  was cured by means of therapy that was described in the article I
                                  mentioned. It lasted only 8 weeks. Since then she never had any
                                  problem of that kind. It was enteritis, inflammation of small bowel,
                                  and was manifested as so-called small bowel diarrhea (diarrhea which
                                  consists of undigested food, smelling like the food that was eaten).

                                  By the way, I prefer the term corticosteroids, in order to
                                  differentiate them from anabolic steroid, which are really dangerous
                                  medications.

                                  Many regards from Deda
                                • rzivorad
                                  Hi Katy! I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar things. I can t argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 7, 2008
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                                    Hi Katy!

                                    I have received some more mails in which their posters aver similar
                                    things. I can't argue with that, neither I want to advocate the use of
                                    corticosteroids. I accept every experience with respect.
                                    Unfortunately, many authors whose articles on the use of
                                    corticosteroids I have read say what I said. I also read statements
                                    similar to mine on some forums. It is obvious that one has to collect
                                    as much experiences as possible. When you say that corticosteroids
                                    lower immunity, bear in mind that that is the goal of the therapy for
                                    immune mediated diseases (like IBD). Low immunity at that period can
                                    be (and usually is) compensated by concurrent use of antibiotics. We
                                    can discuss adverse effects on heart and other organs, but immunity
                                    must be lowered in the case of immune mediated diseases.

                                    Thanks for your mail. It will help me to consider the use of
                                    corticosteroids more carefully next time.

                                    Kindest regards, Deda
                                  • toomany_kittys
                                    Deda, Thank you for your post and the information. Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6 mths can sometimes suppress the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 7, 2008
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                                      Deda,
                                      Thank you for your post and the information.
                                      Prednisolone, when given at a high dose and then weaned , i.e. in 6
                                      mths can sometimes suppress the auto-immune disease symptoms for
                                      months or years. This is done for many humans also with Multiple
                                      Sclerosis when symptoms are severe. This was the neurologist's plan.
                                      The vet had a different plan to wean slower and maybe not at all,
                                      depending on any return of symptoms.
                                      Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                                      used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                                      adverse affects.
                                      Currently, Jasmin the cat is being given hydrocortisone alternatively
                                      with the pred to wean her off the pred. It isn't as strong and has
                                      lesser side affects. She is also on an adrenal support for the next
                                      3 - 6 mths. The integrative vet has found that diseases that respond
                                      quickly to pred often involve the adrenal glands.

                                      I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. The yellow soft stool
                                      does indicate undigested food - the yellow is bile. Were you giving
                                      her digestive enzymes? Pancreatic enzymes? supplements for gut
                                      health? I recently had a cat have acute pancreatitis and the yellow
                                      stool that you speak of and within 3 weeks her stool was back to
                                      normal, as were her pancreatic numbers, etc.. She was given an herbal
                                      formula with digestive enzymes, adrenal support, immune support, etc.
                                      and the problem resolved very quickly. (I have many foster cats)

                                      Sometimes drugs are absolutely necessary, but often there are better
                                      solutions.

                                      El



                                      -- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi El!
                                      >
                                      > I can't argue, your experience obviously shows that those vets,
                                      whose
                                      > articles on the use of corticosteroids I have read, are deeply
                                      wrong.
                                      > Maybe we could discuss whether it is some coincidence, but I see
                                      that
                                      > there are many other people with the same experience. Unfortunately,
                                      > there are many occasions when corticosteroids must be used,
                                      especially
                                      > in cats, because they are so prone to immune mediated disorders.
                                      > Luckily, there is alternatives to corticosteroids. Those are
                                      > azathioprine and cyclosporine, but it seems that corticosteroids are
                                      > very popular among many authors, so one can heavily find
                                      > recommendations of proper dosages of these two. I am sure that vets
                                      > also have that problem. Besides, side effects of these two
                                      > alternatives are pretty unknown, especially when cats are in
                                      question.
                                      >
                                      > When we talk about therapy for IBD, it is not real long-term use of
                                      > prednisone, because it usually last only 8 weeks.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your mail, it's worth to have information of such
                                      experience.
                                      >
                                      > Many regards from Deda
                                      >
                                    • rzivorad
                                      Hi El! I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands. Adrenal glands produce
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 9, 2008
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                                        Hi El!

                                        I believe that autoimmune diseases, all of which respond to
                                        prednisolone or other corticosteroids, always involve adrenal glands.
                                        Adrenal glands produce natural corticosteroid cortisol, which has
                                        immunosuppresive effect (among many other). It is pretty normal to
                                        suppose that there would never be autoimmune diseases if adrenal
                                        glands worked well so, being insufficiently active, they are always
                                        involved in immune mediated diseases.

                                        I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                                        immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs, but
                                        with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse effects.
                                        In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                                        cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                                        hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when respond
                                        to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                                        There was no need for pancreatic enzymes supplement. It is used in the
                                        case of pancreatic exocrine insufficiency (which is rare in cats), and
                                        is contraindicated in acute pancreatitis. This is heart group, so we
                                        shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was typical
                                        small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                                        pancreatic insufficiency.

                                        I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is no
                                        time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                                        applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                                        health, but in the cases of serious diseases.

                                        < I'm glad the IBD resolved itself with your cat. >

                                        Thanks!

                                        Many regards from Deda
                                      • toomany_kittys
                                        Deda, My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated, prednisolone is used in a
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 9, 2008
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                                          Deda,
                                          My original stmt is below. This refers to auto immune diseases such
                                          as demylineating neuopathy which Jasmin has. As I stated,
                                          prednisolone is used in a very high dose for a short duration which
                                          then often suppresses the symptoms for years - not in lower doses for
                                          life. The below drugs aren't used in this manner for this condition -
                                          in extremely high dose for short duration. Please note my original
                                          stmt below 'They are not without serious adverse affects.'

                                          Cyclosporine and Azathiopine aren't used in this manner. They are
                                          used continually for life duration. They are also not without serious
                                          adverse affects.

                                          > I must disagree about azathioprine and cyclosporine. They are
                                          > immunosuppressors and are used like other immunosuppressive drugs,
                                          but
                                          > with much stronger effects and, unfortunately, worse adverse
                                          effects.
                                          > In cats, they are used in severe cases of lymphocytic
                                          > cholangiohepatitis, feline herpetic keratitis, immune-mediated
                                          > hemolytic anemia, idiopathic thrombocytopenia and so on, when
                                          respond
                                          > to corticosteroid therapy is poor.

                                          >
                                          If I recall correctly, you brought up the IBD. Believe me, the stool
                                          from pancreatic insufficiency is not always 'just loose, pale and
                                          greasy'.

                                          This is heart group, so we
                                          > shouldn't "talk" about pancreatitis or IBD, but her stool was
                                          typical
                                          > small-bowel diarrhea, not just loose, pale and greasy stool like in
                                          > pancreatic insufficiency.

                                          I completely disagree with the stmt below. In an emergency situation,
                                          medications are often important but not always 'when disease
                                          develops'. Yes, medications are important for some diseases but with
                                          many, such as IBD, alternative treatments such as accupuncture,
                                          Chinese Herbal medicines, supplements, etc. and diet changes work
                                          very well. The methods don't have to applied on a long-term basis. My
                                          HCM kitty had IBD (both diagnosed by ultrasound), and we successfully
                                          used alternative methods. He no longer needs the accupuncture nor the
                                          Chinese Herbal meds for it. The IBD has resolved itself.
                                          Also, for HCM have you read the recent post where the one cat who
                                          reacted adversely to Atenolol has had improvement with the supplement
                                          Cardio Strength? At some point, he will probably require meds, but
                                          the supplement has reversed the disease process to a degree.
                                          >
                                          > I strongly believe in medications. When disease develops, there is
                                          no
                                          > time for the use of less dangerous methods. Those methods must be
                                          > applied on a long-term basis, and are irreplaceable for preserving
                                          > health, but in the cases of serious diseases.


                                          You're right, this is a heart group. If you would like to further
                                          this discussion, feel free to email me.

                                          El
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