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Josie not doing so well

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  • psychoforkaatz
    She hasnt been eating at all today and barely any yesterday. She is very weak and wobbly and seems lost. She still has spunk and dragged my brothers shoe
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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      She hasnt been eating at all today and barely any yesterday. She is
      very weak and wobbly and seems lost. She still has spunk and dragged
      my brothers shoe around by the lace last night. I have been syringe
      feeding her all day with a high cal food with added probiotics and
      psyllium as her diarreah has been foul and watery. I'm afraid I am
      going to lose her after surviving strokes and heart failure. Her heart
      and lungs sound good and resp rate is really good. She is on Atenolol,
      1/4 tab, twice daily, 1/4 tab furosimide once every other day,
      vitamins and supplements, and metoclopramide, I just upped the dose 4
      days ago as she was barely eating. It helped for two days and she ate
      like crazy but now wont eat at all. She is so thin.

      I am wondering if it is the meds, atenolol and metoclopramide, as I
      know atenolol causes lethargy and slows the heart rate, maybe hers is
      too slow (havent checked actual rate in a few days but it sounds slow,
      strong and steady and the murmur sounds slightly better, maybe) It was
      around 128 last check and her BP has been 90 last two checks, never a
      problem there. Also someone said metoclopramide causes them to be
      offbalance and spacey. I am going to skip both those meds tonight and
      see how she does by morning. Since I'm syringe feeding her the
      metoclopramide makes no difference and her heart rate has been good so
      I'm not worried about her missing one dose, at least I'm more worried
      about her other symptoms.

      I am so exhausted with my own medical issues and I have all this money
      coming to me for my SSA case but not soon enough to do extensive
      testing for her. I have borrowed enough for bloodwork on Monday. I
      dont know if that will tell me anything, her kidney numbers were great
      last check so that is the only thing I'm worried about but if she has
      a kidney crash I dont know if her heart could handle the treatment.
      Iam on the verge of collapse and just cant face the possibility of
      emergency care or the loss of another pet.

      I just know there is something else going on that is causing her to
      not eat. It just sucks not being able to find out what it is. If she
      survives the weekend and the bloodwork shows nothing, and changing the
      meds doesnt help, I think I will see a new vet to see if someone with
      fresh eyes can figure it out.

      Kendall
    • elfinmyst@aol.com
      Hi Kendall Sorry to hear about Josie. I know beta blockers cause lethargy, but I`ve never used the other drug you mention. However, I ve seen all sorts of side
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Hi Kendall

        Sorry to hear about Josie. I know beta blockers cause lethargy, but I`ve
        never used the other drug you mention. However, I've seen all sorts of side
        effects,including depression.

        Let us know how she goes on today.

        Lyn :)

        www.furkids-uk.com






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • elanonuevo@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/2/2007 4:40:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psychoforkaatz@yahoo.com writes: Also someone said metoclopramide causes them to be
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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          In a message dated 12/2/2007 4:40:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          psychoforkaatz@... writes:

          Also someone said metoclopramide causes them to be
          offbalance and spacey



          Kendall, I don't know what the metoclopramide is for, I assume an appetite
          stimulant. I don't see much of a change in Oz when he takes the atenolol but
          it does sound good to check Josie's kidney and liver values. Just know that
          Josie is in our thoughts and prayers this weekend. {{{ }}}

          Tia (and Oz)



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        • Carol
          hi Kendall, Can you try Pepcid AC instead of the Metaclopramide (Reglan)? Metaclopramide is also for motility and it might be adding to the diarrnea problem...
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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            hi Kendall,

            Can you try Pepcid AC instead of the Metaclopramide (Reglan)?
            Metaclopramide is also for motility and it might be adding to the
            diarrnea problem... pushing things through faster.

            If Josie's not feeling well from the tummy acid thing, and the Meta.
            isn't helping (I used to give it to my angel Sweetie, and sometimes
            I felt like it didn't help at all), maybe the Pepcid will get any
            nausea under control.

            Most of the time with our Snowball, her not wanting to eat is
            because of her being nauseated from her CRF. I do give her Pepcid
            AC (I use injectible version, because she's so prone to throwing
            up), but I also give her slippery elm bark. I think that helps a
            lot. I make it into a syrup and give her 1 tsp twice a day in her
            food. She likes it. You can also just syringe it. It doesn't taste
            bad at all...I tasted it! I taste everything I give my guys to make
            sure it's not horrible stuff.

            To make a syrup you can just boil some water and put 1 1/2 teasp. of
            slippery elm bark powder in 1 cup of boiled water. Let it set for
            about an hour and it'll be thickened. You can also simmer the SEB in
            water in a pot on the stove, and it'll thicken faster, but either
            way you make it, it comes out the same. Store it in a dark glass
            jar or bottle in the fridge. It'll keep for about a week.

            I hope she's feeling better today. Keep up the syringe feeding. I
            can't tell you how much it made a difference for Chris. He wouldn't
            eat at all on his own, and we had to syringe feed him every day for
            about a month. You have to keep their strength up with the
            nutrients, so sometimes syringe feeding is the only way to do that
            when they won't eat on their own.

            I know you're exhausted...I've been there too, an right now too with
            our Snowball being sick with her crf/heart and pancreatitis
            problems. But hang in there and try to take care of you too. We're
            sending you healing light and big hugs.

            love,
            Carol and angel Chris
            Puddy Boo Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea
            (angels Fritzy Sweetie Ducky Bouncer and Muffy)

            "I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are."
          • Carol
            Oh, I forgot to mention. When you give SEB, it s best to give it NOT when you re giving other medications. Because of it s mucilagenous nature of being thick
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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              Oh, I forgot to mention. When you give SEB, it's best to give it NOT
              when you're giving other medications. Because of it's mucilagenous
              nature of being thick and putting a soothing coating on the stomach
              and in the digestive tract, it can inhibit the absorption of other
              meds. It's best to give it an hour after other meds.

              hugs,
              Carol and the gang

              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:


              > Most of the time with our Snowball, her not wanting to eat is
              > because of her being nauseated from her CRF. I do give her Pepcid
              > AC (I use injectible version, because she's so prone to throwing
              > up), but I also give her slippery elm bark.
            • jamander33
              Kendall, I feel fairly sure that the Reglan is causing this disorientation and wobblyness you are seeing in Josie. My cat went through the exact same thing
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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                Kendall, I feel fairly sure that the Reglan is causing this
                disorientation and wobblyness you are seeing in Josie. My cat went
                through the exact same thing with reglan. It did help with his
                vomiting, however caused all these other strange things to happen.
                It helps a lot to cut back on the dosage. I cut Griffin's reglan
                dosage in 1/2 and it seemed to take care of those strange
                neurological symptoms. I agree though that reglan will do nothing
                for diarrhea except maybe make it worse. I hate to push antibiotics
                on anyone, but the metronidazole (flagyl) in a low dose helped
                Griffin's diarrhea. Now, it cut his appetite back a little. But, I
                read where B-12 shots really helped a cat's overall vitality,
                appetite and can help with diarrhea too. So, with my vet's
                permission and a prescription from her, I have been giving Grifin B-
                12 shots for about 7 weeks and they have done absolute wonders for
                him. It is natural and cannot hurt, so definitely worth a try. His
                appetite is so strong now, where it used to not be. Good luck with
                Josie and ask your vet about B-12. Keep us posted, Amanda and Griffin

                > She hasnt been eating at all today and barely any yesterday. She is
                > very weak and wobbly and seems lost. She still has spunk and
                dragged
                > my brothers shoe around by the lace last night. I have been syringe
                > feeding her all day with a high cal food with added probiotics and
                > psyllium as her diarreah has been foul and watery. I'm afraid I am
                > going to lose her after surviving strokes and heart failure. Her
                heart
                > and lungs sound good and resp rate is really good. She is on
                Atenolol,
                > 1/4 tab, twice daily, 1/4 tab furosimide once every other day,
                > vitamins and supplements, and metoclopramide, I just upped the
                dose 4
                > days ago as she was barely eating. It helped for two days and she
                ate
                > like crazy but now wont eat at all. She is so thin.
                >
                > I am wondering if it is the meds, atenolol and metoclopramide, as I
                > know atenolol causes lethargy and slows the heart rate, maybe hers
                is
                > too slow (havent checked actual rate in a few days but it sounds
                slow,
                > strong and steady and the murmur sounds slightly better, maybe) It
                was
                > around 128 last check and her BP has been 90 last two checks,
                never a
                > problem there. Also someone said metoclopramide causes them to be
                > offbalance and spacey. I am going to skip both those meds tonight
                and
                > see how she does by morning. Since I'm syringe feeding her the
                > metoclopramide makes no difference and her heart rate has been
                good so
                > I'm not worried about her missing one dose, at least I'm more
                worried
                > about her other symptoms.
                >
                > I am so exhausted with my own medical issues and I have all this
                money
                > coming to me for my SSA case but not soon enough to do extensive
                > testing for her. I have borrowed enough for bloodwork on Monday. I
                > dont know if that will tell me anything, her kidney numbers were
                great
                > last check so that is the only thing I'm worried about but if she
                has
                > a kidney crash I dont know if her heart could handle the treatment.
                > Iam on the verge of collapse and just cant face the possibility of
                > emergency care or the loss of another pet.
                >
                > I just know there is something else going on that is causing her to
                > not eat. It just sucks not being able to find out what it is. If
                she
                > survives the weekend and the bloodwork shows nothing, and changing
                the
                > meds doesnt help, I think I will see a new vet to see if someone
                with
                > fresh eyes can figure it out.
                >
                > Kendall
                >
              • moonpye
                Hi Kendall, I m sorry to hear that Josie is not feeling well :( I agree about the Metaclopramide - Reglan. I looked into this before and decided to go with
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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                  Hi Kendall,

                  I'm sorry to hear that Josie is not feeling well :(

                  I agree about the Metaclopramide - Reglan. I looked into this before and
                  decided to go with pepcid ac or the seb.

                  Metoclopramide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, where dopamine
                  antagonism at the CTZ produces an antiemetic effect. However, dopamine
                  antagonism in the striatum causes adverse effects known collectively as
                  extrapyramidal signs, which include involuntary muscle spasms, motor
                  restlessness, and inappropriate aggression.
                  http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/190307.htm


                  There have been occasional reports of changes in behavior and mental states.
                  Cats may become very anxious, bordering on frenzied.
                  Metoclopramide may cause sedation, mild constipation and nausea.
                  http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/metoclopramide-hcl-reglan/page1.aspx


                  Sending you and Josie healing wishes,

                  Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar



                  On 12/2/07, psychoforkaatz <psychoforkaatz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > She hasnt been eating at all today and barely any yesterday. She is
                  > very weak and wobbly and seems lost. She still has spunk and dragged
                  > my brothers shoe around by the lace last night. I have been syringe
                  > feeding her all day with a high cal food with added probiotics and
                  > psyllium as her diarreah has been foul and watery. I'm afraid I am
                  > going to lose her after surviving strokes and heart failure. Her heart
                  > and lungs sound good and resp rate is really good. She is on Atenolol,
                  > 1/4 tab, twice daily, 1/4 tab furosimide once every other day,
                  > vitamins and supplements, and metoclopramide, I just upped the dose 4
                  > days ago as she was barely eating. It helped for two days and she ate
                  > like crazy but now wont eat at all. She is so thin.
                  >
                  > I am wondering if it is the meds, atenolol and metoclopramide, as I
                  > know atenolol causes lethargy and slows the heart rate, maybe hers is
                  > too slow (havent checked actual rate in a few days but it sounds slow,
                  > strong and steady and the murmur sounds slightly better, maybe) It was
                  > around 128 last check and her BP has been 90 last two checks, never a
                  > problem there. Also someone said metoclopramide causes them to be
                  > offbalance and spacey. I am going to skip both those meds tonight and
                  > see how she does by morning. Since I'm syringe feeding her the
                  > metoclopramide makes no difference and her heart rate has been good so
                  > I'm not worried about her missing one dose, at least I'm more worried
                  > about her other symptoms.
                  >
                  > I am so exhausted with my own medical issues and I have all this money
                  > coming to me for my SSA case but not soon enough to do extensive
                  > testing for her. I have borrowed enough for bloodwork on Monday. I
                  > dont know if that will tell me anything, her kidney numbers were great
                  > last check so that is the only thing I'm worried about but if she has
                  > a kidney crash I dont know if her heart could handle the treatment.
                  > Iam on the verge of collapse and just cant face the possibility of
                  > emergency care or the loss of another pet.
                  >
                  > I just know there is something else going on that is causing her to
                  > not eat. It just sucks not being able to find out what it is. If she
                  > survives the weekend and the bloodwork shows nothing, and changing the
                  > meds doesnt help, I think I will see a new vet to see if someone with
                  > fresh eyes can figure it out.
                  >
                  > Kendall
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nala nala
                  Kendall, I am so sorry. It is so up and down with these sick kitties. I hope you have the energy to help Josie. I don t know what to think about the diarrhea
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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                    Kendall,

                    I am so sorry. It is so up and down with
                    these sick kitties. I hope you have the
                    energy to help Josie.

                    I don't know what to think about the
                    diarrhea - the only time Cozette
                    had diarrhea was during the time
                    that her kidney values increased.

                    Be careful with the atenolol - be sure to
                    taper Josie off of it without just quitting
                    it. A heart rate of 128 isn't too low
                    for a cat on beta-blockade according to
                    Cozette's cardiologist, but it DID seem
                    to be too low for Cozette. I kept her
                    heart rate around 140 (this was after
                    6 months of ~120-130 and massive disease
                    progression despite the atenolol). The
                    difference in her activity and alertness between
                    120 and 140 was striking.

                    Certainly the aspirin could be upsetting
                    Josie's tummy. It could be food
                    related - kidney related - parasite
                    related, it is hard to guess. For example,
                    Cozette at one point was diagnosed
                    with giardia although at
                    the time she was strickly indoor.
                    (I still wonder if the vet lied about
                    the results of the fecal float).

                    I'm glad that you will be able to get
                    her to a vet for an exam and some
                    bloodwork.

                    Hugs - you certainly need them.

                    Nala with Camille and Cozette in spirit



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                  • psychoforkaatz
                    thanks Amanda, I stopped her Reglan last night. She did fine on it for a few weeks with one small dose daily and it did help her appetite, the only side
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 2, 2007
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                      thanks Amanda, I stopped her Reglan last night. She did fine on it for a few weeks with one small dose daily and it did help her appetite, the only side effect, which might not have been reglan, was a bit of spaciness, but shes been "off" for some time.

                      I seriously thought she wouldnt make it thru the night. Neither of us has slept. I realized around 4 am she was dehydrated so gave her a small bit of fluids and again around one. I have been syringe feeding her too, mixed with water.

                      We did a course of flagyl for three weeks, her dose was tiny and had to be compounded and she was so upset by it and running from me and stressed out, I stopped after 3 weeks, was supposed to be four but no positive results anyway.

                      She has been on b12 once a week and more recently twice a week for about 4 months now and we did see great improvement in the beginning. In fact last weekend when she had her second stroke she was having odd neuro symptoms, chasing imaginary bugs with her face glued to the floor, and I gave her a b12 shot and she was better in 20 minutes.

                      I wondering if this is a kidney crash although her numbers have been almost normal. I'll take her in for bloodwork in the morning.

                      She did perk up a bit after the subq fluids, she had been taking a couple steps and collapsing, then after she could walk across the room. She finally pooped, or squirted I should say this afternoon then jumped up on my bed (after putting a foot in it) She hasnt had the energy to jump for about 24 hours. I syringe fed her thruout the night and again after a couple hours sleep around 1pm. Then was getting ready to again about 3:30 and decided to offer her a bowl and she cleaned the bowl, so that is good. She is still very weak and so thin. I'm very scared for her, but she does seem slightly more there.

                      Her heart rate and resp were up this afternoon, I skipped her atenolol last night. Heart 160 and resp 60, but she wasnt really resting as everything is such an effort and I had just given her fluids. She still finds the energy to play with shoelaces.

                      It just seems there is something more going on here than HCM, CRF and IBD as if thats not enough.

                      Kendall




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                    • psychoforkaatz
                      Hi Nala, so sorry you arent feeling well, hope you feel better soon! Thats kindof how I feel all the time with my illness. I found out from yahoo why some
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 3, 2007
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                        Hi Nala, so sorry you arent feeling well, hope you feel better soon! Thats kindof how I feel all the time with my illness.

                        I found out from yahoo why some posts arent going thru to the webpage on the heart list. If I post an original post, it goes thru, if I post a reply to a post, it only goes to people who get email, but doesnt post to the webpage. I talked to Carol and she couldnt find anything wrong but yahoo said that they have to change a setting that sends replies to group, not just email. I dont think that has happened yet and I bet alot of posts are not getting on the webpage.

                        Anyway, took Josie to the vet today. She was actually doing a bit better today, after I cried all night thinking I was going to lose her. She would take a couple steps and collapse. I have been giving her fluids and syringe feeding her, and she has eaten a few bowls of food on her own. Today she felt well enough to jump on my bed, with help, and walk from end to end of my room, then later she came downstairs and jumped on the couch, with rests.

                        She is now down to 5.3 lbs!!! The vet said no congestion so no fluid in the lungs so I'm Ok doing the fluids in small doses and will hold off on her lasix until she is not so dehydrated. Anyway the labwork said her kidney values were absolutely excellent, in fact since she was first dx'd in summer with mild CRF, her numbers have gotten better each test. Today they were all in mid normal range, which seems to suggest that she doesnt have CRF but had elevated numbers the first time due to other health issues (and dehydration at times of test I would think). In fact her Phos is 3.3 (down from 5.2) so I will stop the phos binders for now. So thats great. Her thyroid is normal, it was low in summer. Only issue is mildly elevated liver enzymes. Vet thinks maybe Cholanealitus or Cholangeal hepatitus (sp??) I have suspected an infection for a long time but none of the AB's have had any effect, well amox takes the edge off but doesnt finish the job. So we are starting Zenequin
                        tomorrow, my other cat had a gut infection a couple months ago and it worked great for him and is very gentle on the stomach, very expensive tho, $23 for 4 pills (16 doses at 1/4 tab a day), but if it helps thats great. Also vet suggested SAMe and Marin (which is a milk thistle product) to detox and protect the liver. Ihave to check prices but the vet says the brand they sell is regulated like a pharmaceutical, whereas many arent. I'm gonna check them online in a minute.

                        We got home from vet and I syringe fed Josie then she walked (wobbled) to the dry food bowl so I put down a bowl of wellness canned for her and she ate most of it. I will feed/assist feed every two hours and keep up with her fluids and of course the meds and supplements I'm already doing. No more Reglan and my vet is looking into the Pepcid. I know that people on crf and heart lists use this but I had read on the info sheet that you can download that it is to be used with caution with heart or kidney issues. So we'll see what my vet finds out and maybe we'll try that or just stick with SEB. As long as I'm syringe feeding, I dont really worry about her appetite as its going in anyway and she rarely vomits, only with IBD flareups. Her bigger problem is constant diarreah. Maybe being off the reglan will help lessen that and maybe the Zenequin will take care of it even more. So thats the story. I'm really tired so am going to cross post this to the heart list instead of having
                        to write another answer.

                        Take care,
                        Kendall

                        nala nala <nala_zq@...> wrote: Hi kendall,

                        Sorry that you are tired, I am only on digest at the
                        group - and I have noticed that not all posts are
                        getting copied into the digest. It's kind of weird. I
                        am fighting a miserable cold and have been so very
                        tired these past several
                        days. I swear all I am doing is napping.

                        I hadn't understood that Pepcid AC was contraindicated
                        for heart and kidney. Per the CRF groups that I used
                        to
                        belong to, many many of those kitties took Pepcid AC
                        or
                        the store brand equivalent. My cat's cardiologist
                        also
                        okayed pepcid for Cozette. My strategy for Cozette
                        was that she got Pepcid in the PM unless she threw up.
                        If
                        she vomited, then she got Reglan. Pepcid helps
                        reduce stomach acid, but doesn't help nausea. Reglan
                        helps with moving stuff through the digestive tract
                        and nausea.

                        I think it is encouraging that she seemed to feel
                        better after the fluids. Kitties will sometimes have
                        increased respiration rates when they are dehydrated.

                        I wish I could tell you what is going on with her,
                        but I just can't. I am sorry that she is not eating
                        all of the time. I did find that for Cozette, I could
                        sometimes bring her food to her and she would eat
                        and then would wander off. If I fed her again in
                        5 minutes or so she would usually eat again. She
                        was not very amenable to syringe feeding. Her
                        tube was such a lifesaver.

                        Take care. I'm off to take another nap.

                        Hugs,

                        Nala




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                      • Carol
                        Hi all, I just wanted to respond to Kendall s info here about replies not getting to the group. The setting at the website right now, when you reply to a post,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 3, 2007
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                          Hi all,

                          I just wanted to respond to Kendall's info here about replies not
                          getting to the group. The setting at the website right now, when you
                          reply to a post, is set to go to the person whose post you're replying
                          to and not to the group. If you want to send your reply to the group,
                          you need to change the "To:" address and choose the group. If you're
                          replying from your own inbox to a post, hit "reply all" otherwise
                          again, it'll go to the individual whose post you're replying to. If
                          you choose the "reply all" it should go to the person and the group.

                          So if your replies are something you think the whole group could
                          benefit from and you want your posts to go to the whole group, just
                          make sure you hit to reply to the group.

                          Hope this clears that up for everyone.

                          hugs,
                          Carol and angel Chris
                          Puddy Boo Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea
                          (missing angels Fritzy, Sweetie, Ducky, Bouncer and Muffy)

                          "I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are."


                          >>
                          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, psychoforkaatz
                          <psychoforkaatz@...> wrote:

                          I found out from yahoo why some posts arent going thru to the webpage
                          on the heart list. If I post an original post, it goes thru, if I post
                          a reply to a post, it only goes to people who get email, but doesnt
                          post to the webpage. I talked to Carol and she couldnt find anything
                          wrong but yahoo said that they have to change a setting that sends
                          replies to group, not just email. I dont think that has happened yet
                          and I bet alot of posts are not getting on the webpage.
                          >>
                        • psychoforkaatz
                          Hi Carol, I guess I was mixed up and thought that was a setting you guys needed to change, I didnt realize I needed to change it on my end when replying.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 3, 2007
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                            Hi Carol,

                            I guess I was mixed up and thought that was a setting you guys needed
                            to change, I didnt realize I needed to change it on my end when
                            replying. Thanks for the insight. Of course I am really frazzled right
                            now so not much sticks in my brain.

                            Kendall


                            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <carolroars@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi all,
                            >
                            > I just wanted to respond to Kendall's info here about replies not
                            > getting to the group. The setting at the website right now, when you
                            > reply to a post, is set to go to the person whose post you're replying
                            > to and not to the group.
                          • Carol
                            Hi everyone, I had a few folks write to me recently asking where their posts were that they replied to. I just wanted to remind everyone that when you reply
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 14 8:24 PM
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                              Hi everyone,

                              I had a few folks write to me recently asking where their posts were
                              that they replied to. I just wanted to remind everyone that when you
                              reply to a post, it automatically defers to the original poster, not
                              the group. You have to choose to send it to the group in order for it
                              to go to everyone. If you reply from your private emails, hit "reply
                              all" (or whatever that command is for your particular email service),
                              and if you reply from the website, click on the drop down menu for who
                              the post is going to and choose to send it to the group. There will be
                              3 choices, one to the group, one to the individual and one to the list
                              owner.

                              Take care,
                              Carol and Snowball and the gang
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