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Re: [FH] oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e, and ASPIRIN??????

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  • Sue at MAGDRL
    Angel, Welcome to the group. You re lucky that it only took them a month to get the diagnosis right. It too me almost 2 years and it was only when she went
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
      Angel,

      Welcome to the group.

      You're lucky that it only took them a month to get the diagnosis right. It
      too me almost 2 years and it was only when she went into congestive heart
      failure for a second time that they figured out what was wrong.

      I agree with Lisa that hawthorn is not good for cats. It can actually make
      their condition worse by causing more thickening of the heart.

      Nattokinase (aka "natto") is an enzyme derived from soy. Lisa gave you a
      good description of what it does.

      In addition to natto, there are a couple pharmaceuticals that help prevent
      clots. Plavix comes in pill form and lovenox is an injectable low-molecular
      weight version of heparin. Heparin is normally given via IV when a cat
      throws a clot and needs emergency treatment. Lovenox helps keep you from
      getting to that point.

      I use lovenox and it's been doing what it's supposed to. The only downside
      is the cost. Plavix is less expensive.

      Fish oils (e.g. salmon oil) and vitamin E supposedly help prevent clots but
      I don't know if it's ever actually been studied. The omega-3 in fish oils
      is supposed to help prevent cachexia (muscle wasting) which is a common
      side-effect of heart disease. Again, there's not a lot of data to back this
      up. I use it and my vet is happy with Pepper's overall condition and muscle
      tone.

      I have a setup for oxygen at home. There are two ways to set it up. You
      can either rent oxygen tanks (they don't last long) or get an oxygen
      concentrator which is a machine that extracts and concentrates oxygen from
      the air. I bough an oxygen concentrator on ebay and have the air pumped
      into a crate that I've covered up with plastic wrap. The cost of the unit
      is about the same as one trip to the emergency vet. I've used it twice (in
      over 2 years) and both times it was for an asthma attack. Pepper has both
      asthma and heart disease and it's not always evident which is causing the
      wheezing.

      The best supplements are CoQ10 and l-carnitine. I love the heart supplement
      Cardio Strength (aka Heart Discovery)
      http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Vetri-Science-Cardio-Strength/125015.
      aspx It has a nice mix of supplements that really make a difference.


      Sue


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "angel z. nest" <toreadpethealthinfo@...>
      To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 7:17 AM
      Subject: [FH] oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e,
      and ASPIRIN??????


      > Hello all,
      >
      > Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
      > other.
      >
      > My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.
      >
      > He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
      > vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
      > something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.
      >
      > Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
      > now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.
      >
      > I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
      > a lot. Thank you!
      >
      > When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
      > owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.
      >
      > Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.
      >
      > A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are
      >
      > How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
      > heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
      > kidneys?
      >
      > I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
      > natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
      > reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?
      >
      > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
      > is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
      > taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
      > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
      > meats, I've heard.
      >
      > i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
      > which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
      > that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
      > this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
      > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
      >
      > and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
      > on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
      > benefits of this?
      >
      > Many thanks,
      > Angel & Wolfy
      >
      >
    • savionna@aol.com
      Hi Angel, ... There isn t much information on the taurine content of food, since it s not an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn t been much study on
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
        Hi Angel,

        In a message dated 3/4/07 7:19:29 AM, toreadpethealthinfo@... writes:

        > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
        > is naturally way high in taurine, right?
        >
        There isn't much information on the taurine content of food, since it's not
        an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn't been much study on it for
        cats, other than establishing a minimum to avoid health disorders (such as the
        blindness and death that resulted from the low taurine content of commercial
        foods some yrs ago). We don't even know the average taurine content of typical
        prey animals.

        So...it's not possible to say whether the ingredients you are feeding are
        "way high" in taurine. It depends on what you're feeding...and the average
        taurine content is going to be affected by what the stock animal ate, how it was
        handled, etc. Many caregivers who feed a fresh-food diet give supplemental
        taurine, at about 100mg/day.

        >   would anyone know how much
        > taurine there is in one little turkey heart?
        >
        I don't, sorry.

        The only figures I have for hearts are: beef, 650 mg/kg; and pig, 2000 mg/kg.

        >   turkey harts are
        > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
        > meats, I've heard.
        >
        Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey
        hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to
        see it.

        Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about
        2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.

        > Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
        > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
        >
        That's very difficult to answer b/c response to nutrients and to compounds in
        plants is more individual than response to synthetic medications. // Rosemary



        **************************************
        AOL now offers free email to everyone.
        Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • toreadpethealthinfo@gmail.com
        Hello Savionna, Thanks for your reply. I learned this over 6 years ago, when I first began researching the raw food diet for my pets. I apparently believed
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
          Hello Savionna,

          Thanks for your reply.

          I learned this over 6 years ago, when I first began researching the raw food diet for my pets. I apparently believed the source was reputable enough to base my nutritional composition of the diet on it.

          I haven't had a need to revisit /re-research this fact since them. Until now, that is. And I'm having a hard time finding any info out there about it.

          Still investigating. When I find something worthwhile, I'll post it to y'all.

          Angel & Wolfy
          turkey hearts are supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the meats, I've heard.


          Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to see it.

          Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about 2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Savionna@...
          To: toreadpethealthinfo@... ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:27 AM
          Subject: Re: [FH] oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e, and ASPIRIN??????


          Hi Angel,

          In a message dated 3/4/07 7:19:29 AM, toreadpethealthinfo@... writes:


          regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
          is naturally way high in taurine, right?


          There isn't much information on the taurine content of food, since it's not an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn't been much study on it for cats, other than establishing a minimum to avoid health disorders (such as the blindness and death that resulted from the low taurine content of commercial foods some yrs ago). We don't even know the average taurine content of typical prey animals.

          So...it's not possible to say whether the ingredients you are feeding are "way high" in taurine. It depends on what you're feeding...and the average taurine content is going to be affected by what the stock animal ate, how it was handled, etc. Many caregivers who feed a fresh-food diet give supplemental taurine, at about 100mg/day.


          would anyone know how much
          taurine there is in one little turkey heart?


          I don't, sorry.

          The only figures I have for hearts are: beef, 650 mg/kg; and pig, 2000 mg/kg.


          turkey harts are
          supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
          meats, I've heard.


          Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to see it.

          Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about 2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.


          Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
          effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?


          That's very difficult to answer b/c response to nutrients and to compounds in plants is more individual than response to synthetic medications. // Rosemary



          **************************************
          AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lorkatz2004
          ... Hi Angel There was a study for either CFA/Winn Foundation that fed cats only raw foods. No supplements, etc., and they used various raw foods. Seems the
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
            ---
            Hi Angel

            There was a study for either CFA/Winn Foundation that fed cats only
            raw foods. No supplements, etc., and they used various raw foods.
            Seems the cats looked the best they ever did.........but they started
            dying with sudden death. The program was pulled right away and all
            the rest of the cats checked. Seems they were all developing heart
            disease........it was determined lack of taurine in the diet.

            Good luck - Cathy




            In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "angel z. nest"
            <toreadpethealthinfo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello all,
            >
            > Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
            > other.
            >
            > My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.
            >
            > He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
            > vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
            > something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.
            >
            > Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
            > now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.
            >
            > I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
            > a lot. Thank you!
            >
            > When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
            > owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.
            >
            > Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.
            >
            > A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are
            >
            > How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
            > heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
            > kidneys?
            >
            > I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
            > natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
            > reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?
            >
            > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
            > is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
            > taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
            > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
            > meats, I've heard.
            >
            > i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
            > which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
            > that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
            > this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
            > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
            >
            > and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
            > on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
            > benefits of this?
            >
            > Many thanks,
            > Angel & Wolfy
            >
          • Leah Ferron
            Angel, Welcome to you and Wolfy. I am sorry to hear about his condition but glad that you found us. I know you have already gotten a bunch of information so I
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
              Angel,

              Welcome to you and Wolfy. I am sorry to hear about his condition but glad that you found us. I know you have already gotten a bunch of information so I won't repeat but I just wanted to welcome you two.

              I just wanted to tell you that my Angel Alec used natto instead of aspirin, and although he was at great risk for clots with his RCM, he never got one. Another thing that you may want to consider is to use oxygen sparingly or just when really needed. There is/was an EMT in our group that cautioned that when people use oxygen contiuously, their bodies get used to the increased oxygen concentration and when oxygen is really needed, their bodies don't get the benefit of 100% oxygen when given. I don't know if I am wording this correctly to understand but I hope so.

              Be sure to ask any questions that you may have even if it isn't heart related because it often is. We are glad you found us!

              Leah and her cats and Angel Alec



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