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oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e, and ASPIRIN??????

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  • angel z. nest
    Hello all, Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each other. My Wolfy just got diagnosed with moderate HCM. He had a full month s
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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      Hello all,

      Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
      other.

      My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.

      He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
      vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
      something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.

      Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
      now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.

      I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
      a lot. Thank you!

      When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
      owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.

      Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.

      A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are

      How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
      heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
      kidneys?

      I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
      natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
      reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?

      regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
      is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
      taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
      supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
      meats, I've heard.

      i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
      which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
      that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
      this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
      effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?

      and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
      on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
      benefits of this?

      Many thanks,
      Angel & Wolfy
    • Lisa Clarizia
      Hi Angel and Wolfy, Welcome to the list, though I m sorry you had to join us! It can be very difficult at times to get a proper diagnosis for a heart kitty,
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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        Hi Angel and Wolfy,

        Welcome to the list, though I'm sorry you had to join us!

        It can be very difficult at times to get a proper diagnosis for a heart
        kitty, which is why we recommend that the kitty be seen by a feline
        cardiologist as soon as possible, wherever possible. General medicine vets
        can't know everything, and a cardiologist is much more likely to be familiar
        with the latest studies, meds and current treatment protocols.

        As for your questions -- I wouldn't mess around with hawthorn berry,
        particularly if Wolfy is taking any allopathic meds for his heart. Aside
        from the kidneys, hawthorn can have an unpredictable effect on a *damaged*
        heart -- it's allegedly safe for cats/humans with normal hearts.

        Natto has two actions -- first, it is supposed to be mildly fibrolytic,
        meaning it dissolves existing clots. Secondly, it is supposed to also have
        an anticoagulant effect, preventing clots from forming in the first place.
        Aspirin, in terms of preventing clots, is nearly useless in a cat. Cats
        can't metabolize aspirin effectively, and to get the dose of aspirin you
        need to prevent clotting in a cat is dangerous for them. I used Natto with
        my late Baby Boy, and I now use it on my Lilly. It doesn't have any action
        that I know of on the heart itself. I personally think supplements are
        bound to do a lot *better* than aspirin, but aside from aspirin and
        supplements there are other options. Plavix is one, as are injectable
        low-molecular weight heparins.

        The problem is there is not one single treatment which can completely
        eliminate the risk of a clot. Clotting happens because of blood stasis in
        the heart -- the heart isn't working right, blood doesn't flow as it should
        and clots form. Some cats are more susceptible to them than others, and
        nobody is 100% sure why that is. All you can do is try to prevent them.

        As for taurine, other than to say you need to be sure your kitties are
        getting enough, no matter what diet they're on, I couldn't say but we have
        several people on the list who know a lot about the subject and I'm sure
        they'll be responding.

        I used oxygen to treat Baby Boy when his CHF was very bad, but this was a
        care and comfort measure for him. Lilly, who is currently asymptomatic,
        doesn't need it. Is Wolfy in CHF or were you thinking of using it as a
        preventative measure?

        Again, welcome!

        Lisa

        On 3/4/07, angel z. nest <toreadpethealthinfo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
        > other.
        >
        > My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.
        >
        > He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
        > vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
        > something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.
        >
        > Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
        > now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.
        >
        > I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
        > a lot. Thank you!
        >
        > When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
        > owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.
        >
        > Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.
        >
        > A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are
        >
        > How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
        > heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
        > kidneys?
        >
        > I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
        > natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
        > reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?
        >
        > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
        > is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
        > taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
        > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
        > meats, I've heard.
        >
        > i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
        > which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
        > that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
        > this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
        > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
        >
        > and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
        > on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
        > benefits of this?
        >
        > Many thanks,
        > Angel & Wolfy
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sue at MAGDRL
        Angel, Welcome to the group. You re lucky that it only took them a month to get the diagnosis right. It too me almost 2 years and it was only when she went
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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          Angel,

          Welcome to the group.

          You're lucky that it only took them a month to get the diagnosis right. It
          too me almost 2 years and it was only when she went into congestive heart
          failure for a second time that they figured out what was wrong.

          I agree with Lisa that hawthorn is not good for cats. It can actually make
          their condition worse by causing more thickening of the heart.

          Nattokinase (aka "natto") is an enzyme derived from soy. Lisa gave you a
          good description of what it does.

          In addition to natto, there are a couple pharmaceuticals that help prevent
          clots. Plavix comes in pill form and lovenox is an injectable low-molecular
          weight version of heparin. Heparin is normally given via IV when a cat
          throws a clot and needs emergency treatment. Lovenox helps keep you from
          getting to that point.

          I use lovenox and it's been doing what it's supposed to. The only downside
          is the cost. Plavix is less expensive.

          Fish oils (e.g. salmon oil) and vitamin E supposedly help prevent clots but
          I don't know if it's ever actually been studied. The omega-3 in fish oils
          is supposed to help prevent cachexia (muscle wasting) which is a common
          side-effect of heart disease. Again, there's not a lot of data to back this
          up. I use it and my vet is happy with Pepper's overall condition and muscle
          tone.

          I have a setup for oxygen at home. There are two ways to set it up. You
          can either rent oxygen tanks (they don't last long) or get an oxygen
          concentrator which is a machine that extracts and concentrates oxygen from
          the air. I bough an oxygen concentrator on ebay and have the air pumped
          into a crate that I've covered up with plastic wrap. The cost of the unit
          is about the same as one trip to the emergency vet. I've used it twice (in
          over 2 years) and both times it was for an asthma attack. Pepper has both
          asthma and heart disease and it's not always evident which is causing the
          wheezing.

          The best supplements are CoQ10 and l-carnitine. I love the heart supplement
          Cardio Strength (aka Heart Discovery)
          http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Vetri-Science-Cardio-Strength/125015.
          aspx It has a nice mix of supplements that really make a difference.


          Sue


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "angel z. nest" <toreadpethealthinfo@...>
          To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 7:17 AM
          Subject: [FH] oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e,
          and ASPIRIN??????


          > Hello all,
          >
          > Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
          > other.
          >
          > My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.
          >
          > He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
          > vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
          > something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.
          >
          > Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
          > now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.
          >
          > I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
          > a lot. Thank you!
          >
          > When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
          > owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.
          >
          > Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.
          >
          > A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are
          >
          > How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
          > heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
          > kidneys?
          >
          > I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
          > natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
          > reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?
          >
          > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
          > is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
          > taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
          > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
          > meats, I've heard.
          >
          > i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
          > which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
          > that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
          > this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
          > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
          >
          > and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
          > on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
          > benefits of this?
          >
          > Many thanks,
          > Angel & Wolfy
          >
          >
        • savionna@aol.com
          Hi Angel, ... There isn t much information on the taurine content of food, since it s not an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn t been much study on
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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            Hi Angel,

            In a message dated 3/4/07 7:19:29 AM, toreadpethealthinfo@... writes:

            > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
            > is naturally way high in taurine, right?
            >
            There isn't much information on the taurine content of food, since it's not
            an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn't been much study on it for
            cats, other than establishing a minimum to avoid health disorders (such as the
            blindness and death that resulted from the low taurine content of commercial
            foods some yrs ago). We don't even know the average taurine content of typical
            prey animals.

            So...it's not possible to say whether the ingredients you are feeding are
            "way high" in taurine. It depends on what you're feeding...and the average
            taurine content is going to be affected by what the stock animal ate, how it was
            handled, etc. Many caregivers who feed a fresh-food diet give supplemental
            taurine, at about 100mg/day.

            >   would anyone know how much
            > taurine there is in one little turkey heart?
            >
            I don't, sorry.

            The only figures I have for hearts are: beef, 650 mg/kg; and pig, 2000 mg/kg.

            >   turkey harts are
            > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
            > meats, I've heard.
            >
            Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey
            hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to
            see it.

            Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about
            2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.

            > Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
            > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
            >
            That's very difficult to answer b/c response to nutrients and to compounds in
            plants is more individual than response to synthetic medications. // Rosemary



            **************************************
            AOL now offers free email to everyone.
            Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • toreadpethealthinfo@gmail.com
            Hello Savionna, Thanks for your reply. I learned this over 6 years ago, when I first began researching the raw food diet for my pets. I apparently believed
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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              Hello Savionna,

              Thanks for your reply.

              I learned this over 6 years ago, when I first began researching the raw food diet for my pets. I apparently believed the source was reputable enough to base my nutritional composition of the diet on it.

              I haven't had a need to revisit /re-research this fact since them. Until now, that is. And I'm having a hard time finding any info out there about it.

              Still investigating. When I find something worthwhile, I'll post it to y'all.

              Angel & Wolfy
              turkey hearts are supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the meats, I've heard.


              Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to see it.

              Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about 2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Savionna@...
              To: toreadpethealthinfo@... ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:27 AM
              Subject: Re: [FH] oxygen, hawthorn, nattokinase, taurine, fish oils, vitamin e, and ASPIRIN??????


              Hi Angel,

              In a message dated 3/4/07 7:19:29 AM, toreadpethealthinfo@... writes:


              regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
              is naturally way high in taurine, right?


              There isn't much information on the taurine content of food, since it's not an essential nutrient for humans. And there hasn't been much study on it for cats, other than establishing a minimum to avoid health disorders (such as the blindness and death that resulted from the low taurine content of commercial foods some yrs ago). We don't even know the average taurine content of typical prey animals.

              So...it's not possible to say whether the ingredients you are feeding are "way high" in taurine. It depends on what you're feeding...and the average taurine content is going to be affected by what the stock animal ate, how it was handled, etc. Many caregivers who feed a fresh-food diet give supplemental taurine, at about 100mg/day.


              would anyone know how much
              taurine there is in one little turkey heart?


              I don't, sorry.

              The only figures I have for hearts are: beef, 650 mg/kg; and pig, 2000 mg/kg.


              turkey harts are
              supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
              meats, I've heard.


              Do you remember where you heard that? I've never seen figures on turkey hearts...which doesn't mean they don't exist, but if you have a source, I'd love to see it.

              Turkey carcass is relatively high in taurine (as far as we know), at about 2000 mg/kg...with the dark meat slightly higher, at about 3000mg/kg.


              Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
              effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?


              That's very difficult to answer b/c response to nutrients and to compounds in plants is more individual than response to synthetic medications. // Rosemary



              **************************************
              AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lorkatz2004
              ... Hi Angel There was a study for either CFA/Winn Foundation that fed cats only raw foods. No supplements, etc., and they used various raw foods. Seems the
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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                ---
                Hi Angel

                There was a study for either CFA/Winn Foundation that fed cats only
                raw foods. No supplements, etc., and they used various raw foods.
                Seems the cats looked the best they ever did.........but they started
                dying with sudden death. The program was pulled right away and all
                the rest of the cats checked. Seems they were all developing heart
                disease........it was determined lack of taurine in the diet.

                Good luck - Cathy




                In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "angel z. nest"
                <toreadpethealthinfo@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello all,
                >
                > Thank you for starting this group and for being here supporting each
                > other.
                >
                > My Wolfy just got diagnosed with "moderate" HCM.
                >
                > He had a full month's worth of mis-diagnosis and maceration by several
                > vets and many different tests before we landed with someone who knew
                > something more than what the Sunday column on feline medicine writes.
                >
                > Not that this is the final result I was praying for, but at least I
                > now can focus on treatments feeling sure I know what the problem is.
                >
                > I've scoured the files, links, archives on this site and have learned
                > a lot. Thank you!
                >
                > When I finally got the diagnosis, I was not really the sharpest cat
                > owner and went kind of numb and didn't know what questions to ask.
                >
                > Now, I'm armed when I go back, thanks to all the info I've found here.
                >
                > A few things I'm hoping you can help me with are
                >
                > How safe is Hawthorn berry? It's supposedly the best supplement for
                > heart health for people and pets, but is it really, really safe on the
                > kidneys?
                >
                > I couldn't figure out from the messages or the files exactly what
                > natto is supposed to do? thin the blood or strengthen the heart or
                > reduce the wall thicknes of the heart?
                >
                > regarding taurine, my cats are on the raw meat and bones diet, which
                > is naturally way high in taurine, right? would anyone know how much
                > taurine there is in one little turkey heart? turkey harts are
                > supposed to have the highest concentration of taurine of all the
                > meats, I've heard.
                >
                > i see that many people use natural supplements instead of aspirin,
                > which my vet is heavily pushing me toward and i'm scared of. I see
                > that fish oils and vitamin e are two popular ones on this list for
                > this purpose. Do these supplements REALLY, REALLY have enough of an
                > effect on blood thickness to equal the effect of an aspirin?
                >
                > and lastly, how many of you administer oxygen to your kitties at home
                > on a regular basis and what can you tell me about the reasons and
                > benefits of this?
                >
                > Many thanks,
                > Angel & Wolfy
                >
              • Leah Ferron
                Angel, Welcome to you and Wolfy. I am sorry to hear about his condition but glad that you found us. I know you have already gotten a bunch of information so I
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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                  Angel,

                  Welcome to you and Wolfy. I am sorry to hear about his condition but glad that you found us. I know you have already gotten a bunch of information so I won't repeat but I just wanted to welcome you two.

                  I just wanted to tell you that my Angel Alec used natto instead of aspirin, and although he was at great risk for clots with his RCM, he never got one. Another thing that you may want to consider is to use oxygen sparingly or just when really needed. There is/was an EMT in our group that cautioned that when people use oxygen contiuously, their bodies get used to the increased oxygen concentration and when oxygen is really needed, their bodies don't get the benefit of 100% oxygen when given. I don't know if I am wording this correctly to understand but I hope so.

                  Be sure to ask any questions that you may have even if it isn't heart related because it often is. We are glad you found us!

                  Leah and her cats and Angel Alec



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