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Re: [FH] I'm going CRAZY...can't get Pharo out of CHF...again!

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  • Leah Ferron
    Andrea, I know you don t like taking Pharo to the vets due to stress but I think it may be time to take him. The fluid may not be just in his lungs. He
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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      Andrea,

      I know you don't like taking Pharo to the vets due to stress but I think it may be time to take him. The fluid may not be just in his lungs. He probably needs an x-ray to see where the fluid is for sure. If it is outside the lungs which is very possible, they could tap him to get the fluid out. I do not recommend giving 75mg of lasix. Is Pharo dehydrated? That can cause rapid breathing too. It is possible to be dehydrated and be retaining fluid in & out of the lungs. How fast is his breathing?

      Leah and her cats and Angel Alec

      pharosmommy <pharosmommy@...> wrote:
      Hi everyone, my baby Pharo has been breathing fast since about 10pm
      (EST) on New Years Eve. He has severe HCM and his daily dose of meds
      are 50mg of Lasix and 12.5mg of Spiro a day. The past 2 days we have
      had to give him 62.5mg of lasix. He is only 11 lbs! It is still not
      bringing his breathing down. He had 3 coughing fits on New Years Eve.
      We don't bring Pharo to the ER anymore because he stesses out and he
      is at such a high risk of a heart attack. We have oxygen at home. I
      made a dog house tent with oxygen that is now on my bed...in between
      my husband and I. Pharo wouldn't go in it when it was on the floor.
      He has slept in there for the past 2 nights and in the morning
      alittle. Today he looks a little better, but still not right...no
      coughing for the last 24 hours, thank God.

      I am so scared we are coming to the point where there is nothing more
      I can do for him. Can someone please give me some advice? This
      sounds weird but, Pharo has NOT told me he is ready to go, yet.

      My cardiologist is so far away, and the trip would really hurt Pharo.
      I just think he is getting TONS of Lasix for an 11 lb kitty. I am
      stuggling with..."how much is too much"...but if I don't give it to
      him he will die. 5 pills didn't bring his breathing down too much. 6
      pills is 75mg of Lasix...is that crazy?? I've tried to up his Spiro
      before, but that dosen't seem to help at all. The fluid is in his
      lungs. Please help us if you can.
      Love,
      Andrea & Pharo





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    • Sue at MAGDRL
      Andrea, Pepper is on a daily dose of 60mg lasix along with 6.25mg spironolactone hctz. She was getting 12.5mg spironolactone but it wasn t keeping up with the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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        Andrea,

        Pepper is on a daily dose of 60mg lasix along with 6.25mg spironolactone
        hctz. She was getting 12.5mg spironolactone but it wasn't keeping up with
        the fluid. The switch was just what she needed. Maybe something like that
        could help Pharo.

        Call your vet and explain about his condition and the stress levels. See if
        you can take him somewhere closer for x-rays and then they can forward them
        on to your cardiologist.

        It sounds like he really needs help ASAP.


        Sue


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "pharosmommy" <pharosmommy@...>
        To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 11:00 AM
        Subject: [FH] I'm going CRAZY...can't get Pharo out of CHF...again!


        > Hi everyone, my baby Pharo has been breathing fast since about 10pm
        > (EST) on New Years Eve. He has severe HCM and his daily dose of meds
        > are 50mg of Lasix and 12.5mg of Spiro a day. The past 2 days we have
        > had to give him 62.5mg of lasix. He is only 11 lbs! It is still not
        > bringing his breathing down. He had 3 coughing fits on New Years Eve.
        > We don't bring Pharo to the ER anymore because he stesses out and he
        > is at such a high risk of a heart attack. We have oxygen at home. I
        > made a dog house tent with oxygen that is now on my bed...in between
        > my husband and I. Pharo wouldn't go in it when it was on the floor.
        > He has slept in there for the past 2 nights and in the morning
        > alittle. Today he looks a little better, but still not right...no
        > coughing for the last 24 hours, thank God.
        >
        > I am so scared we are coming to the point where there is nothing more
        > I can do for him. Can someone please give me some advice? This
        > sounds weird but, Pharo has NOT told me he is ready to go, yet.
        >
        > My cardiologist is so far away, and the trip would really hurt Pharo.
        > I just think he is getting TONS of Lasix for an 11 lb kitty. I am
        > stuggling with..."how much is too much"...but if I don't give it to
        > him he will die. 5 pills didn't bring his breathing down too much. 6
        > pills is 75mg of Lasix...is that crazy?? I've tried to up his Spiro
        > before, but that dosen't seem to help at all. The fluid is in his
        > lungs. Please help us if you can.
        > Love,
        > Andrea & Pharo
        >
        >
      • nala nala
        Dear Andrea, I am so sorry to learn about Pharo and certainly understand the pain and worry this is causing you. I am wondering whether or not your vet might
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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          Dear Andrea,

          I am so sorry to learn about Pharo and certainly
          understand the pain and worry this is causing you.

          I am wondering whether or not your vet might let you
          have injectable lasix at home. (Mine won't, but I
          can't afford any more $1000 emergency visits and $3000
          hospitalizations, so I am going to ask again). This
          should be much faster acting than the oral lasix which
          is not always efficiently absorbed. The fasted acting
          option is IV lasix. IM (intramuscular) and SubQ are
          faster than oral.

          Another option is to add a thiazide diuretic. Sue's
          Pepper is on spirnonlactone HCTZ - the HCTZ is a
          thiazide diuretic. That is what my cardiologist has
          suggested for Cozette when/if lasix doesn't work at
          home anymore.

          I would call my cardiologist and my vet to ask for
          guidance. Mine are pretty good at calling back, as
          are the staff of the emergency clinic where we have
          been taking Cozette lately.

          Best,

          Nala


          --- pharosmommy <pharosmommy@...> wrote:

          > Hi everyone, my baby Pharo has been breathing fast
          > since about 10pm
          > (EST) on New Years Eve. He has severe HCM and his
          > daily dose of meds
          > are 50mg of Lasix and 12.5mg of Spiro a day. The
          > past 2 days we have
          > had to give him 62.5mg of lasix. He is only 11 lbs!
          > It is still not
          > bringing his breathing down. He had 3 coughing fits
          > on New Years Eve.
          > We don't bring Pharo to the ER anymore because he
          > stesses out and he
          > is at such a high risk of a heart attack. We have
          > oxygen at home. I
          > made a dog house tent with oxygen that is now on my
          > bed...in between
          > my husband and I. Pharo wouldn't go in it when it
          > was on the floor.
          > He has slept in there for the past 2 nights and in
          > the morning
          > alittle. Today he looks a little better, but still
          > not right...no
          > coughing for the last 24 hours, thank God.
          >
          > I am so scared we are coming to the point where
          > there is nothing more
          > I can do for him. Can someone please give me some
          > advice? This
          > sounds weird but, Pharo has NOT told me he is ready
          > to go, yet.
          >
          > My cardiologist is so far away, and the trip would
          > really hurt Pharo.
          > I just think he is getting TONS of Lasix for an 11
          > lb kitty. I am
          > stuggling with..."how much is too much"...but if I
          > don't give it to
          > him he will die. 5 pills didn't bring his breathing
          > down too much. 6
          > pills is 75mg of Lasix...is that crazy?? I've tried
          > to up his Spiro
          > before, but that dosen't seem to help at all. The
          > fluid is in his
          > lungs. Please help us if you can.
          > Love,
          > Andrea & Pharo
          >
          >


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        • pharosmommy
          How can you tell if a kitty is dehydrated? Pharo eats only wet food and drinks a lot! Pharo is doing better today. We are only taking our normal dose of
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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            How can you tell if a kitty is dehydrated? Pharo eats only wet food
            and drinks a lot! Pharo is doing better today. We are only taking
            our normal dose of 50mg of lasix today. I have a call into my vet to
            ask about the spiro HCTZ. I'm thinking that might help. I am also
            going to take him in for an x-ray.
            Love,
            Andrea & Pharo
          • Leah Ferron
            Andrea, There are several ways. Look at Pharo s gums. If they are normally pink, then are they pink or whitish? Pink is good, whitish is dehydrated. If his
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 3, 2007
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              Andrea,

              There are several ways. Look at Pharo's gums. If they are normally pink, then are they pink or whitish? Pink is good, whitish is dehydrated. If his gums are black, then do the feel test. Are they slick or tacky? Slick good, tacky dehydrated. You can also gently pull up the skin on the nape of his neck. Does it bounce back or slowly go back into place? Fast good, slow dehydrated. The vet can also tell with bloodwork if they are dehydrated.

              I think it is a good idea to have an x-ray. With Pharo's condition, an x-ray should probably be a monthly thing for him. I had to do this with Angel Alec and within a month's time things changed from being retained in the lungs to outside the lungs with chyle. Although counting his breathing gives a pretty good indicator of fluid, an x-ray will tell you for sure and where it is accumulating.

              Please keep us updated on how you and Pharo are doing!

              Leah and her cats and Angel Alec



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            • nala nala
              Andrea, There are a few things that I check for dehydration. First, I look at my cat s eyes to see if they look sunken in - Cozette looks like she has bags
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 3, 2007
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                Andrea,

                There are a few things that I check for dehydration.

                First, I look at my cat's eyes to see if they look
                sunken in - Cozette looks like she has bags under her
                eyes or some dirt under her eyes when she doesn't feel
                well from being dehydrated. At times her eyes look
                kind of dull.

                Next I feel her gums, but I need to make sure she
                didn't just drink water. If they feel rubbery or
                tacky instead of slick and smooth that indicates
                dehydration. I usually do this test whenever I am
                pilling her or if I am giving her cheek rubs. Her
                gums have felt tacky even when her eyes have not been
                sunken in.

                Finally, I gently pinch up some of the excess skin
                around her neck and see whether it snaps back into
                place or stays pinched and very slowly goes back into
                place. The cat's skin should snap back. For my cat,
                she has never been so severely dehydrated that her
                skin didn't go back relatively quickly. When in
                doubt, I compare her to her sister (the control cat!)
                or I pinch up some of the skin on the back of my hand
                to see how quickly it goes back.

                Good luck with the vet and I am glad that he is doing
                better today.

                Nala


                --- pharosmommy <pharosmommy@...> wrote:

                > How can you tell if a kitty is dehydrated? Pharo
                > eats only wet food
                > and drinks a lot! Pharo is doing better today. We
                > are only taking
                > our normal dose of 50mg of lasix today. I have a
                > call into my vet to
                > ask about the spiro HCTZ. I'm thinking that might
                > help. I am also
                > going to take him in for an x-ray.
                > Love,
                > Andrea & Pharo
                >
                >


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              • jen
                Andrea, I so sorry to hear that Pharo is having such a tough time. It is such a balancing act with these guys. There is a cardinal rule in medicine - treat
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 3, 2007
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                  Andrea,

                  I so sorry to hear that Pharo is having such a tough time. It is
                  such a balancing act with these guys.

                  There is a cardinal rule in medicine - treat the patient - not the
                  numbers, xray, machine etc. Sometimes they need more than we think
                  they should. This being said, dosages should be closely monitored by
                  a vet - have you asked his cardiologist about increasing his lasix
                  and max doses?

                  Another medication to ask about is nitroglyercin. We use this almost
                  exclusively in human medicine now for congestive heart failure, lasix
                  has fallen completely out of favour. The problem is figuring out the
                  dose (I know it's ironic) It only comes in a paste which can be
                  applied to the ear; the other delivery methods are not useful for
                  cats.

                  My HCM kitty Deagan takes more than the average human adult dose of
                  Atenolol every day; it is the correct dose for him because his heart
                  is reversing the changes and his murmur is dropped dramatically since
                  he started it 3 years ago.

                  Good luck and hugs for Pharo,
                  jen and the gang

                  Deagan 4 yo DSH asymptomatic. Atenolol 25 mg twice daily. Murmur
                  down to II from VI in 2003.
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