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Re: [FH] Re: Cozette Update + Azodyl + Epakitin

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  • moonpye
    If anyone wants to read more info on Azodyl or Epakitin, over at the CRF support group there has always been a lot of controversy on this subject. Most of them
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 27, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      If anyone wants to read more info on Azodyl or Epakitin, over at the CRF
      support group there has always been a lot of controversy on this subject.
      Most of them echo Rosemary's thoughts on this. You can search Azodyl in the
      search box and get quite a few member experiences and thoughts on these.
      http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/


      This is one of the posts on Epakitin:
      Message#157495 8/12/2006
      --- In Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com, dewitt <dewittg@...>
      wrote:

      Earlier this week, I posted Dr. Kathy's comments on Azodyl. She and
      I had a bit of a side exchange on Epakitin at that time that I don't
      believe I ever posted to the group. At the bottom of this post is
      her response to my comment on it.

      My personal thoughts: Epakitin contains calcium carbonate and
      chitosan. Calcium carbonate, the active ingredient in Tums by the
      way, has long been used as a phosphorous binder - HOWEVER, it's not
      nearly as effective as alum hydroxide (AlOH) and it can tend to
      elevate the cat's blood calcium level. Since CRF cats already tend
      to have high calcium levels, supplementing with calcium carbonate
      needs to be done with caution if at all.

      There is some evidence that chitosan, the other ingredient in
      Epakitin can help people with kidney failure. I don't know that
      there has been any research in cats. Some also believe that
      chitosan can block fat absorption and result in weight loss. It is
      used for that purpose in a number of diet products. Since cats with
      CRF often tend to lose weight, giving a product that purportedly
      cause weight loss to them seems questionable.

      Bottom line, I wouldn't give Epakitin to cats with moderate to
      severe
      CRF. I might give it to a cat with early CRF but only with
      monitoring of it's calcium level. I wouldn't give it to any CRF cat
      as a phosphorus binder. Alum hydroxide is a much more effect
      binder. If I really want to give the a chitosan, I'd buy it over
      the
      counter (it's widely available, though I don't know the appropriate
      dose) and give it separately. AND, giving alum hydroxide powder and
      OTC chitosan would sure be a lot less expensive than Epakitin.

      David has some additional comments on Epakitin on his binder page -
      http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/binders.htm

      deg

      ----------------------

      Will do, though off hand I don't recall it (Azodyl) ever being
      mentioned on the list before. Another of the company's products,
      Epakitin, has been used by a number of members with some cats being
      switched from AlOH to Epakitin. At least anecdotally, those members
      haven't found it very effective and cats switched from AlOH tend to
      have increased phos levels.

      deg


      That's interesting and in keeping with my opinion of staying with
      AlOH as long as we can get it and avoid Ca-based phos binders so we
      have calcitriol as an option.

      -kathy


      Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar



      On 12/27/06, savionna@... <savionna@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Nala and Meredith,
      >
      > I've been following the Cozette story...and I'm sorry for all that's
      > happening (esp during a blizzard).
      >
      > Just wanted to make a comment about Azodyl.
      >
      > In a message dated 12/27/06 8:17:04 AM, connecting@...:
      >
      > > I want to make the point here again that there is a fairly
      > > new veterinary "medication" on the market called Azodyl that is
      > > supposed to improve renal values. The way my boss explained it to
      > > me, it is a bacteria that tends to consume the waste products that
      > > aren't being taken care of when kidneys are functioning
      > > insufficiently. So, it's a sort of probiotic.
      > >
      > Azodyl is beneficial bacteria. And it works in the digestive system to
      > "trap"
      > waste and pass it out in poop, so that it doesn't have to be passed out
      > thru
      > the kidneys.
      >
      > The concept of a nitrogen trap is not new. Iams has been promoting
      > nitrogen
      > trap ingredients (basically fermentable plant fibers) in their food for
      > nearly
      > 10 yrs. Azodyl works basically the same way...but using a diff. means.
      >
      > Azodyl is owned by Vetoquinol, the same Canadian company that is marketing
      > Epakitin. Epakitin is nothing more than calcium carbonate (basically
      > eggshells)
      > with chitosan, which acts as a phosphorus binder (which has also long been
      > known). Both of those ingredients are available over the counter. So are
      > bacteria
      > probiotics. Vetoquinol is medicalizing OTC substances for profit...a trend
      > that both the pharma industry and the FDA set in motion every now and
      > again.
      > There are *no* studies of Azodyl done on cats by independent laboratories.
      > The
      > "study" on cats was at a vet's clinic with 7 cats...about whom no other
      > treatment information (diet, medications, etc) has been published, and the
      > "results"
      > are based on the one vet's observations. Azodyl may work great. But we
      > don't
      > know. And even if it does work, the ingredients are available elsewhere.
      > And
      > there are other products that are also known to work (fermentable
      > fibers)...and
      > potentially yet other products (eg other strains of bacteria) that may do
      > the
      > exact same thing but have just never been packaged and marketed.
      >
      > Any caregiver is free to use whatever they like. But I think it's
      > important
      > to keep in mind that the claims by Vetoquinol are unsubstantiated...and
      > what
      > the company is doing is contributing to the medicalization of what are now
      > considered to be dietary supplements, which some consumers find
      > troublesome. //
      > Rosemary
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Linda Fischbach
      ... From: moonpye To: Cc: ; nala nala ; Meredith
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 27, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "moonpye" <moonpye@...>
        To: <savionna@...>
        Cc: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; "nala nala" <nala_zq@...>;
        "Meredith" <connecting@...>
        Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [FH] Re: Cozette Update + Azodyl + Epakitin


        > If anyone wants to read more info on Azodyl or Epakitin, over at the CRF
        > support group there has always been a lot of controversy on this subject.
        > Most of them echo Rosemary's thoughts on this. You can search Azodyl in
        > the
        > search box and get quite a few member experiences and thoughts on these.
        > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/
        >
        >
        > This is one of the posts on Epakitin:
        > Message#157495 8/12/2006
        > --- In Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com, dewitt <dewittg@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > Earlier this week, I posted Dr. Kathy's comments on Azodyl. She and
        > I had a bit of a side exchange on Epakitin at that time that I don't
        > believe I ever posted to the group. At the bottom of this post is
        > her response to my comment on it.
        >
        > My personal thoughts: Epakitin contains calcium carbonate and
        > chitosan. Calcium carbonate, the active ingredient in Tums by the
        > way, has long been used as a phosphorous binder - HOWEVER, it's not
        > nearly as effective as alum hydroxide (AlOH) and it can tend to
        > elevate the cat's blood calcium level. Since CRF cats already tend
        > to have high calcium levels, supplementing with calcium carbonate
        > needs to be done with caution if at all.
        >
        > There is some evidence that chitosan, the other ingredient in
        > Epakitin can help people with kidney failure. I don't know that
        > there has been any research in cats. Some also believe that
        > chitosan can block fat absorption and result in weight loss. It is
        > used for that purpose in a number of diet products. Since cats with
        > CRF often tend to lose weight, giving a product that purportedly
        > cause weight loss to them seems questionable.
        >
        > Bottom line, I wouldn't give Epakitin to cats with moderate to
        > severe
        > CRF. I might give it to a cat with early CRF but only with
        > monitoring of it's calcium level. I wouldn't give it to any CRF cat
        > as a phosphorus binder. Alum hydroxide is a much more effect
        > binder. If I really want to give the a chitosan, I'd buy it over
        > the
        > counter (it's widely available, though I don't know the appropriate
        > dose) and give it separately. AND, giving alum hydroxide powder and
        > OTC chitosan would sure be a lot less expensive than Epakitin.
        >
        > David has some additional comments on Epakitin on his binder page -
        > http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/binders.htm
        >
        > deg
        >
        > ----------------------
        >
        > Will do, though off hand I don't recall it (Azodyl) ever being
        > mentioned on the list before. Another of the company's products,
        > Epakitin, has been used by a number of members with some cats being
        > switched from AlOH to Epakitin. At least anecdotally, those members
        > haven't found it very effective and cats switched from AlOH tend to
        > have increased phos levels.
        >
        > deg
        >
        >
        > That's interesting and in keeping with my opinion of staying with
        > AlOH as long as we can get it and avoid Ca-based phos binders so we
        > have calcitriol as an option.
        >
        > -kathy
        >
        >
        > Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar
        >
        >
        >
        > On 12/27/06, savionna@... <savionna@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Hi Nala and Meredith,
        >>
        >> I've been following the Cozette story...and I'm sorry for all that's
        >> happening (esp during a blizzard).
        >>
        >> Just wanted to make a comment about Azodyl.
        >>
        >> In a message dated 12/27/06 8:17:04 AM,
        >> connecting@...:
        >>
        >> > I want to make the point here again that there is a fairly
        >> > new veterinary "medication" on the market called Azodyl that is
        >> > supposed to improve renal values. The way my boss explained it to
        >> > me, it is a bacteria that tends to consume the waste products that
        >> > aren't being taken care of when kidneys are functioning
        >> > insufficiently. So, it's a sort of probiotic.
        >> >
        >> Azodyl is beneficial bacteria. And it works in the digestive system to
        >> "trap"
        >> waste and pass it out in poop, so that it doesn't have to be passed out
        >> thru
        >> the kidneys.
        >>
        >> The concept of a nitrogen trap is not new. Iams has been promoting
        >> nitrogen
        >> trap ingredients (basically fermentable plant fibers) in their food for
        >> nearly
        >> 10 yrs. Azodyl works basically the same way...but using a diff. means.
        >>
        >> Azodyl is owned by Vetoquinol, the same Canadian company that is
        >> marketing
        >> Epakitin. Epakitin is nothing more than calcium carbonate (basically
        >> eggshells)
        >> with chitosan, which acts as a phosphorus binder (which has also long
        >> been
        >> known). Both of those ingredients are available over the counter. So are
        >> bacteria
        >> probiotics. Vetoquinol is medicalizing OTC substances for profit...a
        >> trend
        >> that both the pharma industry and the FDA set in motion every now and
        >> again.
        >> There are *no* studies of Azodyl done on cats by independent
        >> laboratories.
        >> The
        >> "study" on cats was at a vet's clinic with 7 cats...about whom no other
        >> treatment information (diet, medications, etc) has been published, and
        >> the
        >> "results"
        >> are based on the one vet's observations. Azodyl may work great. But we
        >> don't
        >> know. And even if it does work, the ingredients are available elsewhere.
        >> And
        >> there are other products that are also known to work (fermentable
        >> fibers)...and
        >> potentially yet other products (eg other strains of bacteria) that may do
        >> the
        >> exact same thing but have just never been packaged and marketed.
        >>
        >> Any caregiver is free to use whatever they like. But I think it's
        >> important
        >> to keep in mind that the claims by Vetoquinol are unsubstantiated...and
        >> what
        >> the company is doing is contributing to the medicalization of what are
        >> now
        >> considered to be dietary supplements, which some consumers find
        >> troublesome. //
        >> Rosemary
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
        > will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
        > feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Linda Fischbach
        Please, do not post messages from other groups unless you have permission from the author, in this case, deg and Dr Kathy. At the bottom of all posts on CRF
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 27, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Please, do not post messages from other groups unless you have permission
          from the author, in this case, deg and Dr Kathy. At the bottom of all posts
          on CRF Support, this appears "All messages sent to
          feline-crf-support@yahoogroups.com are Copyright 2006 by the original
          author. Do not forward or excerpt to another group or nonmember without the
          author's permission."

          Also, we have an agreement with Dr Kathy that her posts will not go to other
          groups.

          Linda (a moderator on Feline CRF Support)
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "moonpye" <moonpye@...>
          To: <savionna@...>
          Cc: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; "nala nala" <nala_zq@...>;
          "Meredith" <connecting@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:00 PM
          Subject: Re: [FH] Re: Cozette Update + Azodyl + Epakitin


          > If anyone wants to read more info on Azodyl or Epakitin, over at the CRF
          > support group there has always been a lot of controversy on this subject.
          > Most of them echo Rosemary's thoughts on this. You can search Azodyl in
          > the
          > search box and get quite a few member experiences and thoughts on these.
          > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/
          >
          >
          > This is one of the posts on Epakitin:
          > Message#157495 8/12/2006
          > --- In Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com, dewitt <dewittg@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > Earlier this week, I posted Dr. Kathy's comments on Azodyl. She and
          > I had a bit of a side exchange on Epakitin at that time that I don't
          > believe I ever posted to the group. At the bottom of this post is
          > her response to my comment on it.
          >
          > My personal thoughts: Epakitin contains calcium carbonate and
          > chitosan. Calcium carbonate, the active ingredient in Tums by the
          > way, has long been used as a phosphorous binder - HOWEVER, it's not
          > nearly as effective as alum hydroxide (AlOH) and it can tend to
          > elevate the cat's blood calcium level. Since CRF cats already tend
          > to have high calcium levels, supplementing with calcium carbonate
          > needs to be done with caution if at all.
          >
          > There is some evidence that chitosan, the other ingredient in
          > Epakitin can help people with kidney failure. I don't know that
          > there has been any research in cats. Some also believe that
          > chitosan can block fat absorption and result in weight loss. It is
          > used for that purpose in a number of diet products. Since cats with
          > CRF often tend to lose weight, giving a product that purportedly
          > cause weight loss to them seems questionable.
          >
          > Bottom line, I wouldn't give Epakitin to cats with moderate to
          > severe
          > CRF. I might give it to a cat with early CRF but only with
          > monitoring of it's calcium level. I wouldn't give it to any CRF cat
          > as a phosphorus binder. Alum hydroxide is a much more effect
          > binder. If I really want to give the a chitosan, I'd buy it over
          > the
          > counter (it's widely available, though I don't know the appropriate
          > dose) and give it separately. AND, giving alum hydroxide powder and
          > OTC chitosan would sure be a lot less expensive than Epakitin.
          >
          > David has some additional comments on Epakitin on his binder page -
          > http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/binders.htm
          >
          > deg
          >
          > ----------------------
          >
          > Will do, though off hand I don't recall it (Azodyl) ever being
          > mentioned on the list before. Another of the company's products,
          > Epakitin, has been used by a number of members with some cats being
          > switched from AlOH to Epakitin. At least anecdotally, those members
          > haven't found it very effective and cats switched from AlOH tend to
          > have increased phos levels.
          >
          > deg
          >
          >
          > That's interesting and in keeping with my opinion of staying with
          > AlOH as long as we can get it and avoid Ca-based phos binders so we
          > have calcitriol as an option.
          >
          > -kathy
          >
          >
          > Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar
          >
          >
          >
          > On 12/27/06, savionna@... <savionna@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Hi Nala and Meredith,
          >>
          >> I've been following the Cozette story...and I'm sorry for all that's
          >> happening (esp during a blizzard).
          >>
          >> Just wanted to make a comment about Azodyl.
          >>
          >> In a message dated 12/27/06 8:17:04 AM,
          >> connecting@...:
          >>
          >> > I want to make the point here again that there is a fairly
          >> > new veterinary "medication" on the market called Azodyl that is
          >> > supposed to improve renal values. The way my boss explained it to
          >> > me, it is a bacteria that tends to consume the waste products that
          >> > aren't being taken care of when kidneys are functioning
          >> > insufficiently. So, it's a sort of probiotic.
          >> >
          >> Azodyl is beneficial bacteria. And it works in the digestive system to
          >> "trap"
          >> waste and pass it out in poop, so that it doesn't have to be passed out
          >> thru
          >> the kidneys.
          >>
          >> The concept of a nitrogen trap is not new. Iams has been promoting
          >> nitrogen
          >> trap ingredients (basically fermentable plant fibers) in their food for
          >> nearly
          >> 10 yrs. Azodyl works basically the same way...but using a diff. means.
          >>
          >> Azodyl is owned by Vetoquinol, the same Canadian company that is
          >> marketing
          >> Epakitin. Epakitin is nothing more than calcium carbonate (basically
          >> eggshells)
          >> with chitosan, which acts as a phosphorus binder (which has also long
          >> been
          >> known). Both of those ingredients are available over the counter. So are
          >> bacteria
          >> probiotics. Vetoquinol is medicalizing OTC substances for profit...a
          >> trend
          >> that both the pharma industry and the FDA set in motion every now and
          >> again.
          >> There are *no* studies of Azodyl done on cats by independent
          >> laboratories.
          >> The
          >> "study" on cats was at a vet's clinic with 7 cats...about whom no other
          >> treatment information (diet, medications, etc) has been published, and
          >> the
          >> "results"
          >> are based on the one vet's observations. Azodyl may work great. But we
          >> don't
          >> know. And even if it does work, the ingredients are available elsewhere.
          >> And
          >> there are other products that are also known to work (fermentable
          >> fibers)...and
          >> potentially yet other products (eg other strains of bacteria) that may do
          >> the
          >> exact same thing but have just never been packaged and marketed.
          >>
          >> Any caregiver is free to use whatever they like. But I think it's
          >> important
          >> to keep in mind that the claims by Vetoquinol are unsubstantiated...and
          >> what
          >> the company is doing is contributing to the medicalization of what are
          >> now
          >> considered to be dietary supplements, which some consumers find
          >> troublesome. //
          >> Rosemary
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          > will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          > feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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