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Re:HELP - Has anyone ever seen this??? (long)

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  • Meredith
    Oh, man, Sue.... Well, I saw something like this in Monkey, but it was actually a good sign. When she had her saddle thrombosis, remember how it took awhile
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 11, 2005
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      Oh, man, Sue....

      Well, I saw something like this in Monkey, but it was actually a good sign. When she had her saddle thrombosis, remember how it took awhile for that second leg to get the pulse back? After it got the pulse back, the leg would swell and get hot, pretty much like you are describing. It would swell and get hot and then recede and then do it again. It happened a couple times over the course of about a week, maybe a little less. It was all in that same leg, though.

      The vet called it "venous return," which, as best as I can explain, the circulation was returning to that leg, but the veins couldn't keep up with the blood flow and weren't "returning" it back to the heart fast enough to keep the leg from swelling. But, it was definitely a joyful sign of blood flow returning, and the vet never even felt she needed me to bring Monkey in to see her while it was going on. It was quite alarming, though, until I knew what it was. If this is what it is for Pepper, even tho the downside would be that clots had happened, maybe it is for Pepper a joyful sign of returning blood flow, too.......?

      I'll say a prayer for Pepper.

      BTW, the Lovenox, is a FORM of heparin, I know you probably know that but Ithought I'd say it again at a time like this. Lovenox is low molecular weight heparin....I think it's a lower risk version of using regular heparin.

      Love, Meredith....missing Monkey and unable to sleep cause of Wonder, the dog (her breathing is keeping me up...she has to work a bit harder to breathe due to the cancer in her lungs, altho doesn't seem in pain. The breathing is pretty much her baseline for the past 5 days or so. We cancelled 2 appointments to have her euthanized yesterday cause altho weak and not breathing right, she enjoyed her day yesterday, ate a lot and lay in the sun chewing on a raw meat deer bone...tis the season...so, we're definitely in that agonizing "when is the right time?" quandary....btw, no, we don't hunt but do have a good source of fresh raw deer meat and bones for Wonder!)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sue at MAGDRL
      Hi, I m sending this to both groups in the hope that someone will have a clue about what s going on. For those of you who don t know, Pepper has HCM that is
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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        Hi,

        I'm sending this to both groups in the hope that someone will have a clue about what's going on.

        For those of you who don't know, Pepper has HCM that is fairly advanced. She also has asthma, and other orthopedic problems

        Periodically over the past couple of weeks, she will suddenly start shaking a leg and biting at her paw. I figured she was throwing small clots that we causing pins & needles but since they always resolved quickly, I didn't see it as an issue. I have mentioned it to the cardiologist. She's on Lovenox to help prevent clots.

        On Monday, she started with the leg shaking with her left hind leg but this seemed more intense. I went to check her leg to see if it was cool which would mean a clot. Instead I found the leg was not only very hot but very swollen. Off we went to the vet for an emergency visit (you know these things only happen after hours). The vet said she thought it was some sort of abcess or infection. We couldn't find an entry point for anything so she sent us home with clavamox. The only difference with Pepper was that it was obviously painful. Her appetite and everything else were normal.

        By the Tuesday morning, it was as if nothing had ever happened. The leg was completely normal.

        This morning (Wednesday) it started again but this time it was her left front leg. It was again visibly swollen and very hot and tender. The cardiologist was off today but there is a cardiology intern so I spoke with her. She asked me to bring Pepper in.

        She examined Pepper and basically said that she and another vet she spoke with are stumped. They don't think it's related to her heart but obviously something's going on. Pepper will stay there overnight so they can do bloodwork, x-rays, and various tests so they will be ready for review when the cardiologist returns tomorrow.

        I'm lost without my little girl here. But has anyone ever seen something like this?


        Sue


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JOAN
        Hi Sue, The only thing remotely close to that which I have seen is what Frostie did. Frostie would have a leg spasm/cramp of some sort. He would all of a
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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          Hi Sue,

          The only thing remotely close to that which I have seen is what Frostie did. Frostie would have a leg spasm/cramp of some sort. He would all of a sudden cry out, bite at his leg and try to run from it until the pain stopped. He is kind of freaky and would go hide after so I don't know if it got hot. IMV said she thought it was some type of seizure. It has a certain name. I can't remember it.

          Joan

          Sue at MAGDRL <susan@...> wrote:
          Hi,

          I'm sending this to both groups in the hope that someone will have a clue about what's going on.

          For those of you who don't know, Pepper has HCM that is fairly advanced. She also has asthma, and other orthopedic problems

          Periodically over the past couple of weeks, she will suddenly start shaking a leg and biting at her paw. I figured she was throwing small clots that we causing pins & needles but since they always resolved quickly, I didn't see it as an issue. I have mentioned it to the cardiologist. She's on Lovenox to help prevent clots.

          On Monday, she started with the leg shaking with her left hind leg but this seemed more intense. I went to check her leg to see if it was cool which would mean a clot. Instead I found the leg was not only very hot but very swollen. Off we went to the vet for an emergency visit (you know these things only happen after hours). The vet said she thought it was some sort of abcess or infection. We couldn't find an entry point for anything so she sent us home with clavamox. The only difference with Pepper was that it was obviously painful. Her appetite and everything else were normal.

          By the Tuesday morning, it was as if nothing had ever happened. The leg was completely normal.

          This morning (Wednesday) it started again but this time it was her left front leg. It was again visibly swollen and very hot and tender. The cardiologist was off today but there is a cardiology intern so I spoke with her. She asked me to bring Pepper in.

          She examined Pepper and basically said that she and another vet she spoke with are stumped. They don't think it's related to her heart but obviously something's going on. Pepper will stay there overnight so they can do bloodwork, x-rays, and various tests so they will be ready for review when the cardiologist returns tomorrow.

          I'm lost without my little girl here. But has anyone ever seen something like this?

          Sue

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • Sue at MAGDRL
          Joan, She doesn t act like she has a cramp or spasm - just that the foot / leg are extremely swollen. It s so huge that it looks like it would have to be
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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            Joan,

            She doesn't act like she has a cramp or spasm - just that the foot / leg are
            extremely swollen. It's so huge that it looks like it would have to be
            painful.

            Thanks for the input!


            Sue

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "JOAN" <bhumane4sure@...>
            To: "Sue at MAGDRL" <susan@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:27 PM
            Subject: Re: [FH] HELP - Has anyone ever seen this??? (long)


            > Hi Sue,
            >
            > The only thing remotely close to that which I have seen is what Frostie
            did. Frostie would have a leg spasm/cramp of some sort. He would all of a
            sudden cry out, bite at his leg and try to run from it until the pain
            stopped. He is kind of freaky and would go hide after so I don't know if it
            got hot. IMV said she thought it was some type of seizure. It has a
            certain name. I can't remember it.
            >
            > Joan
            >
          • nala nala
            Sue, These are classic symptoms of a venous clot - at least in people. http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Dvt/DVT_All.html ... What Are the Signs and
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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              Sue,

              These are classic symptoms of a venous clot - at least
              in people.

              http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Dvt/DVT_All.html
              ---------------
              What Are the Signs and Symptoms of Deep Vein
              Thrombosis and of Pulmonary Embolism?

              It is important to see a doctor right away if you have
              symptoms of deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary
              embolism. Deep vein thrombosis can cause very serious
              complications if not treated.

              Deep Vein Thrombosis

              Only about half of the people with deep vein
              thrombosis have symptoms. The symptoms may include:

              Swollen area of the leg.
              Pain or tenderness in the leg. The pain is usually in
              one leg and may be felt only when standing or walking.
              Increased warmth in the area of the leg that is
              swollen or in pain.
              Red or discolored skin.
              Pulmonary Embolism

              Some people find out that they have deep vein
              thrombosis only after the clot has moved from the leg
              and traveled to the lung (pulmonary embolism). The
              symptoms may include:

              Chest pain when you take a deep breath
              Shortness of breath
              -------------------

              This is taken from a pregnancy website:
              Blood Clots in the Legs

              A serious complication of pregnancy is a blood clot
              in the legs or groin. Symptoms of the problem are
              swelling of the legs accompanied by leg pain and
              redness or warmth over the affected area in the legs.

              The problem has many names, including venous
              thrombosis, thromboembolic disease, thrombophlebitis
              and lower deep-vein thrombosis. The problem is not
              limited to pregnancy, but pregnancy is a time when it
              is more likely to occur. This is due to the slowing
              of blood flow in the legs because of uterine pressure
              and changes in the blood and its clotting mechanisms.

              The most probable cause of blood clots in the legs
              during pregnancy is decreased blood flow, also called
              stasis. If you have had a previous blood clot?in your
              legs or any other part of your body?tell your doctor
              at the beginning of pregnancy. It's important
              information, and he or she needs to know it.

              Deep-Vein Thrombosis

              A distinction is often made between superficial
              thrombosis and deep-vein thrombosis in the leg. A
              blood clot in the superficial veins of the leg is not
              as serious. This condition is usually noted in veins
              close to the surface of the skin that can often be
              felt on the surface. This type of clot is treated with
              a mild pain reliever such as acetaminophen (Tylenol),
              elevation of the leg, support of the leg with an ace
              bandage or support stockings and occasionally heat. If
              the condition doesn't improve rapidly, deep-vein
              thrombosis must be considered.

              Deep-vein thrombosis is more serious; it requires
              diagnostic and treatment steps. Symptoms of deep-vein
              thrombosis in the lower leg can differ greatly,
              depending on the location of the clot and how bad it
              is. The onset of deep-vein thrombosis can be rapid,
              with severe pain and swelling of the leg and thigh.

              With deep-vein thrombosis, the leg may occasionally
              appear pale and cool, but usually a portion of the leg
              is tender, hot and swollen. Often skin over the
              affected veins is red. There may even be streaks of
              red on the skin over veins where blood clots have
              occurred.

              Squeezing the calf or leg may be extremely painful,
              and it may be equally painful to walk. One way to tell
              if you have deep-vein thrombosis is to lie down and
              flex your toes toward your knee. If the back of the
              leg is tender, it is a positive indication of this
              problem (Homan's sign). (This type of pain may also
              occur with a strained muscle or a bruise.) Check with
              your doctor if this occurs.

              Diagnostic studies of deep-vein thrombosis may be
              different for a pregnant woman than for a nonpregnant
              woman. In the nonpregnant woman, an X-ray may be
              accompanied by an injection of dye into leg veins to
              look for blood clots. This test is not usually
              performed on a pregnant woman because of exposure to
              radiation and dye.

              Ultrasound is used to diagnose this problem in
              pregnant women. Most major medical centers offer it,
              but the test is not available everywhere.

              Treatment of deep-vein thrombosis usually consists of
              hospitalization and heparin therapy. Heparin (a blood
              thinner) must be given intravenously; it cannot be
              taken as a pill. It is safe

              during pregnancy and is not passed to the fetus. A
              woman may be required to take extra calcium during
              pregnancy if she receives heparin because it thins
              the blood to prevent the clot from enlarging. While
              heparin is being administered, the woman is required
              to stay in bed. The leg may be elevated and heat
              applied, and mild pain medicine is prescribed.

              Recovery time, including hospitalization, may be 7 to
              10 days. After this time, the woman continues taking
              heparin until delivery. Following pregnancy, she will
              need to continue taking a blood thinner for up to
              several weeks, depending on the severity of the clot.

              If a woman has a blood clot during one pregnancy, she
              may need to use heparin during subsequent pregnancies.
              If so, heparin can be given by an in-dwelling I.V.
              catheter or by daily injections the woman administers
              to herself under her doctor's supervision.

              Another medication used to treat deep-vein thrombosis
              is warfarin, an oral medication. Warfarin (CoumadinĀ«)
              is not given during pregnancy because it crosses the
              placenta and can be harmful to the baby. Warfarin is
              usually given to the woman after pregnancy to prevent
              blood clots. It may be prescribed for a few weeks or
              a few months, depending on the severity of the clot.

              If you have had a blood clot in the past for any
              reason, pregnancy-related or not, it's important to
              see your doctor early in pregnancy. Tell him or her
              about any problems you've had with blood clots at your
              first prenatal visit.

              The greatest danger from deep-vein thrombosis is a
              pulmonary embolism, in which a piece of the blood clot
              breaks off and travels from the legs to the lungs.
              This is a rare problem during pregnancy and is
              reported in only 1 in every 3000 to 7000 deliveries.
              Although it is a serious complication in pregnancy, it
              can often be avoided with proper treatment.

              -------------
              Thinking of you and Pepper !
              Hugs!

              -Nala


              --- Sue at MAGDRL <susan@...> wrote:

              > Hi,
              >
              > I'm sending this to both groups in the hope that
              > someone will have a clue about what's going on.
              >
              > For those of you who don't know, Pepper has HCM that
              > is fairly advanced. She also has asthma, and other
              > orthopedic problems
              >
              > Periodically over the past couple of weeks, she will
              > suddenly start shaking a leg and biting at her paw.
              > I figured she was throwing small clots that we
              > causing pins & needles but since they always
              > resolved quickly, I didn't see it as an issue. I
              > have mentioned it to the cardiologist. She's on
              > Lovenox to help prevent clots.
              >
              > On Monday, she started with the leg shaking with her
              > left hind leg but this seemed more intense. I went
              > to check her leg to see if it was cool which would
              > mean a clot. Instead I found the leg was not only
              > very hot but very swollen. Off we went to the vet
              > for an emergency visit (you know these things only
              > happen after hours). The vet said she thought it
              > was some sort of abcess or infection. We couldn't
              > find an entry point for anything so she sent us home
              > with clavamox. The only difference with Pepper was
              > that it was obviously painful. Her appetite and
              > everything else were normal.
              >
              > By the Tuesday morning, it was as if nothing had
              > ever happened. The leg was completely normal.
              >
              > This morning (Wednesday) it started again but this
              > time it was her left front leg. It was again
              > visibly swollen and very hot and tender. The
              > cardiologist was off today but there is a cardiology
              > intern so I spoke with her. She asked me to bring
              > Pepper in.
              >
              > She examined Pepper and basically said that she and
              > another vet she spoke with are stumped. They don't
              > think it's related to her heart but obviously
              > something's going on. Pepper will stay there
              > overnight so they can do bloodwork, x-rays, and
              > various tests so they will be ready for review when
              > the cardiologist returns tomorrow.
              >
              > I'm lost without my little girl here. But has
              > anyone ever seen something like this?
              >
              >
              > Sue
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >




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            • Sue at MAGDRL
              Nala, That sounds very much like the problem! I will discuss that with them in the AM. Or do you think I should call them now? Sue ... From: nala nala
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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                Nala,

                That sounds very much like the problem! I will discuss that with them in
                the AM. Or do you think I should call them now?


                Sue

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "nala nala" <nala_zq@...>
                To: "Sue at MAGDRL" <susan@...>; "Feline Heart"
                <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; "WholeCatHealth"
                <WholeCatHealth@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:43 PM
                Subject: Re: [FH] HELP - Has anyone ever seen this??? (long)


                > Sue,
                >
                > These are classic symptoms of a venous clot - at least
                > in people.
                >
                > http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Dvt/DVT_All.html
                > ---------------
                > What Are the Signs and Symptoms of Deep Vein
                > Thrombosis and of Pulmonary Embolism?
                >
                > It is important to see a doctor right away if you have
                > symptoms of deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary
                > embolism. Deep vein thrombosis can cause very serious
                > complications if not treated.
                >
                > Deep Vein Thrombosis
                >
                > Only about half of the people with deep vein
                > thrombosis have symptoms. The symptoms may include:
                >
                > Swollen area of the leg.
                > Pain or tenderness in the leg. The pain is usually in
                > one leg and may be felt only when standing or walking.
                > Increased warmth in the area of the leg that is
                > swollen or in pain.
                > Red or discolored skin.
                > Pulmonary Embolism
                >
                > Some people find out that they have deep vein
                > thrombosis only after the clot has moved from the leg
                > and traveled to the lung (pulmonary embolism). The
                > symptoms may include:
                >
                > Chest pain when you take a deep breath
                > Shortness of breath
              • Sue at MAGDRL
                Nala, I just called and spoke with the vet that I saw earlier. They understand the seriousness of a deep vein thrombosis although I m not sure why they didn t
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 29, 2006
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                  Nala,

                  I just called and spoke with the vet that I saw earlier. They understand
                  the seriousness of a deep vein thrombosis although I'm not sure why they
                  didn't talk about it earlier. I specifically asked if there was a type of
                  blood clot that could prevent the blood from leaving the limbs.

                  She said that right now, there's nothing more than can do other than what
                  they are already doing. She said that cats don't do well on streptokinase -
                  there's a low survival rate. I tried giving Pepper nattokinase and it made
                  her sick. I can't say exactly what went on but it made her extremely
                  lethargic.

                  I mentioned heparin and she thought it wouldn't help any more than the
                  lovenox.

                  I get the impression that with clots, you can only do so much. I know her
                  heart is really bad. It's so enlarged that it doesn't beat steadily - she
                  has an atrial arrhythmia (I think that's the type she has).

                  Plus you talked about exercise. We've been walking lately so maybe that
                  precipitated the clots.


                  Sue




                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "nala nala" <nala_zq@...>
                  To: "Sue at MAGDRL" <susan@...>
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:34 PM
                  Subject: Re: [FH] HELP - Has anyone ever seen this??? (long)


                  > Sue,
                  >
                  > As I am "panic woman" I would call now and tell them
                  > what I thought it was and ask about whether to bring
                  > Pepper in. I don't know whether IV heparin would be
                  > better than the 1x/day lovenox injection. I would
                  > ask. Coumadin is given to people, but not so much
                  > pets. I think monitoring the blood clotting time is
                  > too difficult.
                  >
                  > I would also, because I am "panic girl" run off to the
                  > nearest health food store and pick up some natto.
                  >
                  > Thinking of you and your Pepper girl!
                  >
                  > -Nala
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Sue at MAGDRL <susan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Nala,
                  > >
                  > > That sounds very much like the problem! I will
                  > > discuss that with them in
                  > > the AM. Or do you think I should call them now?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Sue
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "nala nala" <nala_zq@...>
                  > > To: "Sue at MAGDRL" <susan@...>; "Feline
                  > > Heart"
                  > > <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; "WholeCatHealth"
                  > > <WholeCatHealth@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:43 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [FH] HELP - Has anyone ever seen
                  > > this??? (long)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Sue,
                  > > >
                  > > > These are classic symptoms of a venous clot - at
                  > > least
                  > > > in people.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Dvt/DVT_All.html
                  > > > ---------------
                  > > > What Are the Signs and Symptoms of Deep Vein
                  > > > Thrombosis and of Pulmonary Embolism?
                  > > >
                  > > > It is important to see a doctor right away if you
                  > > have
                  > > > symptoms of deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary
                  > > > embolism. Deep vein thrombosis can cause very
                  > > serious
                  > > > complications if not treated.
                  > > >
                  > > > Deep Vein Thrombosis
                  > > >
                  > > > Only about half of the people with deep vein
                  > > > thrombosis have symptoms. The symptoms may
                  > > include:
                  > > >
                  > > > Swollen area of the leg.
                  > > > Pain or tenderness in the leg. The pain is usually
                  > > in
                  > > > one leg and may be felt only when standing or
                  > > walking.
                  > > > Increased warmth in the area of the leg that is
                  > > > swollen or in pain.
                  > > > Red or discolored skin.
                  > > > Pulmonary Embolism
                  > > >
                  > > > Some people find out that they have deep vein
                  > > > thrombosis only after the clot has moved from the
                  > > leg
                  > > > and traveled to the lung (pulmonary embolism). The
                  > > > symptoms may include:
                  > > >
                  > > > Chest pain when you take a deep breath
                  > > > Shortness of breath
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________________________________________________________________________
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                • Leah Ferron
                  Sue, Please remind Pepper that she is our resident miracle kitty now and we are counting on her getting through this with flying colors. Please keep us updated
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 30, 2006
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                    Sue,

                    Please remind Pepper that she is our resident miracle kitty now and we are counting on her getting through this with flying colors. Please keep us updated on her progresss. Sending healing prayers your way!!!

                    Leah and her cats and Angel Alec




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                  • moonpye
                    Hi Sue and Pepper, Yes, Pepper is our resident miracle kitty now! We know she will come through this! Sending healing prayers and energy to you and Pepper!
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 30, 2006
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                      Hi Sue and Pepper,

                      Yes, Pepper is our resident miracle kitty now! We know she will come
                      through this! Sending healing prayers and energy to you and Pepper!


                      Hugs to you and Pepper,

                      Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar



                      On 11/30/06, Leah Ferron <leahandhercats@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sue,
                      >
                      > Please remind Pepper that she is our resident miracle kitty now and we are
                      > counting on her getting through this with flying colors. Please keep us
                      > updated on her progresss. Sending healing prayers your way!!!
                      >
                      > Leah and her cats and Angel Alec
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • db4catz
                      Hi Sue, How is Pepper today? I wanted to add some thoughts about deep vein thrombosis. I ve had phelbitis twice, and what you describe corresponds with my
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 1, 2006
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                        Hi Sue,

                        How is Pepper today?

                        I wanted to add some thoughts about deep vein thrombosis. I've had phelbitis twice, and
                        what you describe corresponds with my symptoms (except the bitting of the leg). I was
                        given blood thinning meds, as well as cortizone to reduce the inflammation. With the
                        second attack, I had to keep my foot higher than my heart for a week. I have bad veins and
                        valves and have had trouble in both legs, though one is worse.

                        The way I understand it, blood clots in the artery travel from the heart until they get to a
                        narrow spot. Fresh blood and oxygen aren't getting to the area after the clot, and tissues
                        can't work without the blood flow. That is what happens with saddle thrombosis and why
                        the legs are cold.

                        With veins, the blood has spent it's oxygen and is making the long trip back to the lungs
                        and heart. There are also valves along the vein that help "push" the blood along it's way.
                        With people, and I assume with cats, where the clot is matters alot. Your veins are smaller
                        at the extremities and get increasingly larger as they get closer to the body core, A small
                        clot can block a vein near the foot, but won't be big enough to block the blood flow in the
                        groin. The blood backs up and becomes stagnant, which lead to inflammation, swelling
                        and heat.

                        I hope this helps.

                        Debby, Maggie's Mom
                      • christina suzanne
                        1. Thanks, Debby, for such a understandable explanation about the difference between the clots. I was always confused, but won t be again. 2. A shaking paw
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 2, 2006
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                          1. Thanks, Debby, for such a understandable
                          explanation about the difference between the clots. I
                          was always confused, but won't be again.

                          2. A shaking paw story: Within a month of Isabel's
                          recovery from her saddle thrombosis, I was sitting on
                          the couch reading and she was walking by the doorway
                          of the room. She picked up her front paw and started
                          shaking it, then she walked away. I completely
                          panicked. As I ran for the Lovenox, I snagged my sock
                          on a splinter in the floor at the doorway. I shook my
                          foot to disengage the splinter and realized I had just
                          made the identical motion (shakeshakeshake) as Isabel
                          had moments before.

                          Needless to say, no Lovenox injection for either of
                          us.

                          The splinter hurt, though, and I might have bitten my
                          foot if I could've reached it!




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