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Re: [FH] Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF

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  • savionna@aol.com
    Hi Meredith, ... This is a really good idea and I m glad you re doing it. And I hope the rutin works for you. You probably already know this...but I m going to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 3 5:27 AM
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      Hi Meredith,

      In a message dated 7/2/06 6:40:34 PM, connecting@... writes:

      > We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
      > by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
      > two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
      > pokes/pills.
      >
      This is a really good idea and I'm glad you're doing it. And I hope the rutin
      works for you.

      You probably already know this...but I'm going to add it anyway for those who
      don't. It's really important to chase tabs/caps with a bit of food or water
      so that the pill doesn't get stuck in the esophagus. Using a little (repeat:
      little) butter or oil on the gelcap can also help it slide down.

      > My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
      > administration?  Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
      > dissolved?
      >
      As far as I'm concerned it's ok. Lots of caregivers (myself incl) with
      chronically ill cats who need to give multiple meds do it (not that that makes it
      ok...I'm just saying you're not alone). About the absorption...I take it as
      given that the gelcap and meds will dissolve in the stomach acid, altho I don't
      know how fast (and I've never really looked into it, altho that information
      probably exists somewhere). According to the literature, a gelcap administered
      with water reaches the cat's stomach in 30 seconds nearly 100% of the time...but
      what happens after that depends on what's in the cat's stomach, stomach
      integrity, capsule composition, etc.
      >
      > Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
      > would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
      > some sub-q's?
      >
      The signs caregivers generally use...such as a skin pinch "standing" or
      oozing back slowly instead of snapping right back or gums being kind of tacky
      instead of slick and smooth...already indicate about 7% dehydration.

      There's some information about that at "Fluid and Electrolyte Therapy" at:
      http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/clinsci/wing/fluids/fluids.htm. See #7. This
      recommends using weight as the sign...but that would be complicated for you by
      fluid retention.

      I'm glad Monkey is still among us. // Rosemary


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cannon,Kimberly
      What exactly is a chest tap? ... From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of protectanimals Sent: Sunday, July 02,
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 3 6:33 AM
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        What exactly is a chest tap?

        -----Original Message-----
        From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of protectanimals
        Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 5:27 PM
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [FH] Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF



        Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who wrote to me
        encouraging me to start Monkey on the rutin. I think last week,
        after the trip to the ER for a chest tap on Thurs. and then needing
        another on Friday night, I really thought Monkey was going to die
        last week, or that when we went for the recheck this past Friday, my
        vet was going to tell me we couldn't tap again and that nothing
        further could be done for Monkey. So, under those circumstances, it
        didn't seem to make sense to stress her with another bunch of stuff
        to get down her.

        Then you great people came along and sent me your positive stories
        about rutin, plus we had our recheck Friday night (more below), plus
        Monkey lived thru the week (!), so as of yesterday, she is taking 500
        mg. per day of rutin, in hopes that it will get rid of the chyle
        (lymph fluid) that keeps building up around her lungs.

        It may take a couple months for the chyle to work, but my vet is
        willing to tap Monkey regularly if we need to to buy time for the
        rutin to work. Considering that Monkey is completely cooperative for
        the chest taps and really doesn't seem bothered by them, I am going
        this route. My vet and I had a great talk and agreed "Monkey is
        still Monkey," but if it gets to the point where it seems the life
        force is no longer within her or if she fills up so much, so rapidly,
        that we can't keep up with clearing her out....then it will be time.

        So....yes, she was tapped again on Friday night 155 ml's of chyle.
        She had already gained 1 1/2 to 2 oz. by the next morning, which is
        really hard for me. I'm hoping we can get to our Friday p.m.
        appointment without having to tap in the interim. My vet and her
        tech are calling Monkey their "Friday night date."

        We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
        by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
        two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
        pokes/pills. (That's excluding the rutin, which is 2 more pokes each
        time). My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
        administration? Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
        dissolved?

        One piece of sort of good news is that my vet said I can stop giving
        Monkey sub-q fluids for now. Not that I mind the procedure anymore,
        had gotten quite used to it after six months, but with the fluid in
        the chest, I felt like I was killing Monkey by giving her the sub-
        q's. My vet said I can withhold the sub-q's "unless Monkey is
        feeling really punky" or unless I pick up her skin and it doesn't
        even go back down (it is going down slowly now, so we know she is dry
        at this point). Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
        would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
        some sub-q's?

        I am so relieved to not be giving the sub-q's right now, as Monkey
        was gaining 2 oz. each time I gave them and didn't ever seem to be
        losing the extra weight, just it would keep creeping up with each
        fluid admin. I said to my vet, tho, "You can't use your kidneys if
        you're not breathing," which, of course, she agreed with!

        Thanks for all your help and input.....

        Meredith with Monkey







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sue at MAGDRL
        Kimberly, When a cat collects fluid, there are 3 places it can accumulate - in the lungs, in the chest cavity, and in the pleural sac. When it collects in the
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 3 6:51 AM
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          Kimberly,

          When a cat collects fluid, there are 3 places it can accumulate - in the
          lungs, in the chest cavity, and in the pleural sac. When it collects in the
          chest cavity, it's sometimes hard to treat with diuretics so the most
          effective alternative is a "chest tap". The vet will insert a needle into
          the chest cavity (between the ribs) and draw out the fluid with a syringe.


          Sue


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Cannon,Kimberly" <kimberly.cannon@...>
          To: "protectanimals" <connecting@...>;
          <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:33 AM
          Subject: RE: [FH] Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF


          > What exactly is a chest tap?
          >
        • Janie
          I think its worth a try. Blackie was at deaths door and she made it 2 years no taps but of course she didnt have heart trouble. In the end it took her life.
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 3 7:27 AM
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            I think its worth a try. Blackie was at deaths door and she made it 2
            years no taps but of course she didnt have heart trouble. In the end it
            took her life. But it gave me two wonderful yrs with her. I kept her
            out of all humidity and cold weather and stress. Anyway when we got to
            a point they couldnt get it tapped enough we to made that awful choice.
            The rutin is a great thing. I cut mine up in small pieces (3) and gave
            it in a treat 3 times a day and she just chewed it up treat and all.
            Depends on the cat. Good luck and prayers to you.
            Janie Trampster (HCM),Bomer. Cinammon, Jaguar(Fiv)Butterscotch.
            My heart Angels Sockster,July05 Socks,Oct 05 Speedy,Sep 99 Mr T.
            Jan99 Blackie oct 04 . SillyAug 04 cancer. Snuggles12/ 03 dog
            (20yrs old)
          • protectanimals
            ... those who ... or water ... I do know about chasing the pills with food or water, but only thanks to being on this list! When I think of all those years of
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 4 12:51 PM
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              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, savionna@... wrote:
              > You probably already know this...but I'm going to add it anyway for
              those who
              > don't. It's really important to chase tabs/caps with a bit of food
              or water
              > so that the pill doesn't get stuck in the esophagus. Using a little
              (repeat:
              > little) butter or oil on the gelcap can also help it slide down.

              I do know about chasing the pills with food or water, but only thanks
              to being on this list! When I think of all those years of pilling
              Monkey dry....yikes! In fact, it's because I do know of the need to
              chase pills with food or water that I needed the gel cap. I can pill
              Monkey pretty easily, so I could easily bing 6 pills down her throat
              in no time. But knowing she needs food after each one....that's when
              six pills became too complicated. I have a way better chance of
              getting her to eat after one gel cap than after each of six pills!
              And we have been using oil with the gel caps. Susan suggested
              butter, so I used Smart Balance, but Monkey didn't like the Smart
              Balance, but seems ok with olive oil.

              > > Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
              > > would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to
              give
              > > some sub-q's?
              > >
              > The signs caregivers generally use...such as a skin
              pinch "standing" or
              > oozing back slowly instead of snapping right back or gums being
              kind of tacky
              > instead of slick and smooth...already indicate about 7%
              dehydration.
              >
              > There's some information about that at "Fluid and Electrolyte
              Therapy" at:
              > http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/clinsci/wing/fluids/fluids.htm. See
              #7. This
              > recommends using weight as the sign...but that would be complicated
              for you by
              > fluid retention.

              Thanks, I'll check out the site. I know she is already partially
              dehydrated now, which is so sad, but she pretty much seems to be
              herself. I'm kind of stuck between a rock and rock on this....so I
              appreciate your sending me the site. I guess I always thought that
              if I stopped the sub-q's she would go down much more quickly than she
              has, but it's been a week and a day now, and she still seems pretty
              much ok.

              >
              > I'm glad Monkey is still among us. // Rosemary

              Thanks, Rosemary.....I know I have to come to terms with her dying,
              and in many ways I have prepared myself, but I am scared of HOW she
              might die.....

              Meredith with Monkey
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