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Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF

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  • protectanimals
    Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who wrote to me encouraging me to start Monkey on the rutin. I think last week, after the trip to the ER for
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 2, 2006
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      Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who wrote to me
      encouraging me to start Monkey on the rutin. I think last week,
      after the trip to the ER for a chest tap on Thurs. and then needing
      another on Friday night, I really thought Monkey was going to die
      last week, or that when we went for the recheck this past Friday, my
      vet was going to tell me we couldn't tap again and that nothing
      further could be done for Monkey. So, under those circumstances, it
      didn't seem to make sense to stress her with another bunch of stuff
      to get down her.

      Then you great people came along and sent me your positive stories
      about rutin, plus we had our recheck Friday night (more below), plus
      Monkey lived thru the week (!), so as of yesterday, she is taking 500
      mg. per day of rutin, in hopes that it will get rid of the chyle
      (lymph fluid) that keeps building up around her lungs.

      It may take a couple months for the chyle to work, but my vet is
      willing to tap Monkey regularly if we need to to buy time for the
      rutin to work. Considering that Monkey is completely cooperative for
      the chest taps and really doesn't seem bothered by them, I am going
      this route. My vet and I had a great talk and agreed "Monkey is
      still Monkey," but if it gets to the point where it seems the life
      force is no longer within her or if she fills up so much, so rapidly,
      that we can't keep up with clearing her out....then it will be time.

      So....yes, she was tapped again on Friday night 155 ml's of chyle.
      She had already gained 1 1/2 to 2 oz. by the next morning, which is
      really hard for me. I'm hoping we can get to our Friday p.m.
      appointment without having to tap in the interim. My vet and her
      tech are calling Monkey their "Friday night date."

      We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
      by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
      two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
      pokes/pills. (That's excluding the rutin, which is 2 more pokes each
      time). My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
      administration? Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
      dissolved?

      One piece of sort of good news is that my vet said I can stop giving
      Monkey sub-q fluids for now. Not that I mind the procedure anymore,
      had gotten quite used to it after six months, but with the fluid in
      the chest, I felt like I was killing Monkey by giving her the sub-
      q's. My vet said I can withhold the sub-q's "unless Monkey is
      feeling really punky" or unless I pick up her skin and it doesn't
      even go back down (it is going down slowly now, so we know she is dry
      at this point). Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
      would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
      some sub-q's?

      I am so relieved to not be giving the sub-q's right now, as Monkey
      was gaining 2 oz. each time I gave them and didn't ever seem to be
      losing the extra weight, just it would keep creeping up with each
      fluid admin. I said to my vet, tho, "You can't use your kidneys if
      you're not breathing," which, of course, she agreed with!

      Thanks for all your help and input.....

      Meredith with Monkey
    • moonpye
      Hi Meredith and Monkey, I am sending good thoughts, healing energy and prayers for you and Monkey. Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar ... [Non-text portions of
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 2, 2006
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        Hi Meredith and Monkey,

        I am sending good thoughts, healing energy and prayers for you and Monkey.



        Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar




        On 7/2/06, protectanimals <connecting@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who wrote to me
        > encouraging me to start Monkey on the rutin. I think last week,
        > after the trip to the ER for a chest tap on Thurs. and then needing
        > another on Friday night, I really thought Monkey was going to die
        > last week, or that when we went for the recheck this past Friday, my
        > vet was going to tell me we couldn't tap again and that nothing
        > further could be done for Monkey. So, under those circumstances, it
        > didn't seem to make sense to stress her with another bunch of stuff
        > to get down her.
        >
        > Then you great people came along and sent me your positive stories
        > about rutin, plus we had our recheck Friday night (more below), plus
        > Monkey lived thru the week (!), so as of yesterday, she is taking 500
        > mg. per day of rutin, in hopes that it will get rid of the chyle
        > (lymph fluid) that keeps building up around her lungs.
        >
        > It may take a couple months for the chyle to work, but my vet is
        > willing to tap Monkey regularly if we need to to buy time for the
        > rutin to work. Considering that Monkey is completely cooperative for
        > the chest taps and really doesn't seem bothered by them, I am going
        > this route. My vet and I had a great talk and agreed "Monkey is
        > still Monkey," but if it gets to the point where it seems the life
        > force is no longer within her or if she fills up so much, so rapidly,
        > that we can't keep up with clearing her out....then it will be time.
        >
        > So....yes, she was tapped again on Friday night 155 ml's of chyle.
        > She had already gained 1 1/2 to 2 oz. by the next morning, which is
        > really hard for me. I'm hoping we can get to our Friday p.m.
        > appointment without having to tap in the interim. My vet and her
        > tech are calling Monkey their "Friday night date."
        >
        > We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
        > by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
        > two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
        > pokes/pills. (That's excluding the rutin, which is 2 more pokes each
        > time). My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
        > administration? Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
        > dissolved?
        >
        > One piece of sort of good news is that my vet said I can stop giving
        > Monkey sub-q fluids for now. Not that I mind the procedure anymore,
        > had gotten quite used to it after six months, but with the fluid in
        > the chest, I felt like I was killing Monkey by giving her the sub-
        > q's. My vet said I can withhold the sub-q's "unless Monkey is
        > feeling really punky" or unless I pick up her skin and it doesn't
        > even go back down (it is going down slowly now, so we know she is dry
        > at this point). Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
        > would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
        > some sub-q's?
        >
        > I am so relieved to not be giving the sub-q's right now, as Monkey
        > was gaining 2 oz. each time I gave them and didn't ever seem to be
        > losing the extra weight, just it would keep creeping up with each
        > fluid admin. I said to my vet, tho, "You can't use your kidneys if
        > you're not breathing," which, of course, she agreed with!
        >
        > Thanks for all your help and input.....
        >
        > Meredith with Monkey
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • savionna@aol.com
        Hi Meredith, ... This is a really good idea and I m glad you re doing it. And I hope the rutin works for you. You probably already know this...but I m going to
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 3, 2006
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          Hi Meredith,

          In a message dated 7/2/06 6:40:34 PM, connecting@... writes:

          > We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
          > by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
          > two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
          > pokes/pills.
          >
          This is a really good idea and I'm glad you're doing it. And I hope the rutin
          works for you.

          You probably already know this...but I'm going to add it anyway for those who
          don't. It's really important to chase tabs/caps with a bit of food or water
          so that the pill doesn't get stuck in the esophagus. Using a little (repeat:
          little) butter or oil on the gelcap can also help it slide down.

          > My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
          > administration?  Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
          > dissolved?
          >
          As far as I'm concerned it's ok. Lots of caregivers (myself incl) with
          chronically ill cats who need to give multiple meds do it (not that that makes it
          ok...I'm just saying you're not alone). About the absorption...I take it as
          given that the gelcap and meds will dissolve in the stomach acid, altho I don't
          know how fast (and I've never really looked into it, altho that information
          probably exists somewhere). According to the literature, a gelcap administered
          with water reaches the cat's stomach in 30 seconds nearly 100% of the time...but
          what happens after that depends on what's in the cat's stomach, stomach
          integrity, capsule composition, etc.
          >
          > Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
          > would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
          > some sub-q's?
          >
          The signs caregivers generally use...such as a skin pinch "standing" or
          oozing back slowly instead of snapping right back or gums being kind of tacky
          instead of slick and smooth...already indicate about 7% dehydration.

          There's some information about that at "Fluid and Electrolyte Therapy" at:
          http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/clinsci/wing/fluids/fluids.htm. See #7. This
          recommends using weight as the sign...but that would be complicated for you by
          fluid retention.

          I'm glad Monkey is still among us. // Rosemary


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cannon,Kimberly
          What exactly is a chest tap? ... From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of protectanimals Sent: Sunday, July 02,
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 3, 2006
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            What exactly is a chest tap?

            -----Original Message-----
            From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of protectanimals
            Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 5:27 PM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [FH] Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF



            Thank you from the bottom of my heart to everyone who wrote to me
            encouraging me to start Monkey on the rutin. I think last week,
            after the trip to the ER for a chest tap on Thurs. and then needing
            another on Friday night, I really thought Monkey was going to die
            last week, or that when we went for the recheck this past Friday, my
            vet was going to tell me we couldn't tap again and that nothing
            further could be done for Monkey. So, under those circumstances, it
            didn't seem to make sense to stress her with another bunch of stuff
            to get down her.

            Then you great people came along and sent me your positive stories
            about rutin, plus we had our recheck Friday night (more below), plus
            Monkey lived thru the week (!), so as of yesterday, she is taking 500
            mg. per day of rutin, in hopes that it will get rid of the chyle
            (lymph fluid) that keeps building up around her lungs.

            It may take a couple months for the chyle to work, but my vet is
            willing to tap Monkey regularly if we need to to buy time for the
            rutin to work. Considering that Monkey is completely cooperative for
            the chest taps and really doesn't seem bothered by them, I am going
            this route. My vet and I had a great talk and agreed "Monkey is
            still Monkey," but if it gets to the point where it seems the life
            force is no longer within her or if she fills up so much, so rapidly,
            that we can't keep up with clearing her out....then it will be time.

            So....yes, she was tapped again on Friday night 155 ml's of chyle.
            She had already gained 1 1/2 to 2 oz. by the next morning, which is
            really hard for me. I'm hoping we can get to our Friday p.m.
            appointment without having to tap in the interim. My vet and her
            tech are calling Monkey their "Friday night date."

            We have so many pills to take now, especially p.m., that I found that
            by putting them into gel caps, I can get all her pills into her with
            two pokes down the throat/two gel caps as opposed to six
            pokes/pills. (That's excluding the rutin, which is 2 more pokes each
            time). My question is, is it ok to put the pills in the gel caps for
            administration? Will they absorb as usual once the gel cap is
            dissolved?

            One piece of sort of good news is that my vet said I can stop giving
            Monkey sub-q fluids for now. Not that I mind the procedure anymore,
            had gotten quite used to it after six months, but with the fluid in
            the chest, I felt like I was killing Monkey by giving her the sub-
            q's. My vet said I can withhold the sub-q's "unless Monkey is
            feeling really punky" or unless I pick up her skin and it doesn't
            even go back down (it is going down slowly now, so we know she is dry
            at this point). Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
            would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to give
            some sub-q's?

            I am so relieved to not be giving the sub-q's right now, as Monkey
            was gaining 2 oz. each time I gave them and didn't ever seem to be
            losing the extra weight, just it would keep creeping up with each
            fluid admin. I said to my vet, tho, "You can't use your kidneys if
            you're not breathing," which, of course, she agreed with!

            Thanks for all your help and input.....

            Meredith with Monkey







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sue at MAGDRL
            Kimberly, When a cat collects fluid, there are 3 places it can accumulate - in the lungs, in the chest cavity, and in the pleural sac. When it collects in the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 3, 2006
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              Kimberly,

              When a cat collects fluid, there are 3 places it can accumulate - in the
              lungs, in the chest cavity, and in the pleural sac. When it collects in the
              chest cavity, it's sometimes hard to treat with diuretics so the most
              effective alternative is a "chest tap". The vet will insert a needle into
              the chest cavity (between the ribs) and draw out the fluid with a syringe.


              Sue


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Cannon,Kimberly" <kimberly.cannon@...>
              To: "protectanimals" <connecting@...>;
              <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:33 AM
              Subject: RE: [FH] Monkey update and questions--rutin, CHF, CRF


              > What exactly is a chest tap?
              >
            • Janie
              I think its worth a try. Blackie was at deaths door and she made it 2 years no taps but of course she didnt have heart trouble. In the end it took her life.
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 3, 2006
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                I think its worth a try. Blackie was at deaths door and she made it 2
                years no taps but of course she didnt have heart trouble. In the end it
                took her life. But it gave me two wonderful yrs with her. I kept her
                out of all humidity and cold weather and stress. Anyway when we got to
                a point they couldnt get it tapped enough we to made that awful choice.
                The rutin is a great thing. I cut mine up in small pieces (3) and gave
                it in a treat 3 times a day and she just chewed it up treat and all.
                Depends on the cat. Good luck and prayers to you.
                Janie Trampster (HCM),Bomer. Cinammon, Jaguar(Fiv)Butterscotch.
                My heart Angels Sockster,July05 Socks,Oct 05 Speedy,Sep 99 Mr T.
                Jan99 Blackie oct 04 . SillyAug 04 cancer. Snuggles12/ 03 dog
                (20yrs old)
              • protectanimals
                ... those who ... or water ... I do know about chasing the pills with food or water, but only thanks to being on this list! When I think of all those years of
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 4, 2006
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                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, savionna@... wrote:
                  > You probably already know this...but I'm going to add it anyway for
                  those who
                  > don't. It's really important to chase tabs/caps with a bit of food
                  or water
                  > so that the pill doesn't get stuck in the esophagus. Using a little
                  (repeat:
                  > little) butter or oil on the gelcap can also help it slide down.

                  I do know about chasing the pills with food or water, but only thanks
                  to being on this list! When I think of all those years of pilling
                  Monkey dry....yikes! In fact, it's because I do know of the need to
                  chase pills with food or water that I needed the gel cap. I can pill
                  Monkey pretty easily, so I could easily bing 6 pills down her throat
                  in no time. But knowing she needs food after each one....that's when
                  six pills became too complicated. I have a way better chance of
                  getting her to eat after one gel cap than after each of six pills!
                  And we have been using oil with the gel caps. Susan suggested
                  butter, so I used Smart Balance, but Monkey didn't like the Smart
                  Balance, but seems ok with olive oil.

                  > > Those of you with experience with CRF and CHF, what
                  > > would be the specific signs you would use to know it was time to
                  give
                  > > some sub-q's?
                  > >
                  > The signs caregivers generally use...such as a skin
                  pinch "standing" or
                  > oozing back slowly instead of snapping right back or gums being
                  kind of tacky
                  > instead of slick and smooth...already indicate about 7%
                  dehydration.
                  >
                  > There's some information about that at "Fluid and Electrolyte
                  Therapy" at:
                  > http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/clinsci/wing/fluids/fluids.htm. See
                  #7. This
                  > recommends using weight as the sign...but that would be complicated
                  for you by
                  > fluid retention.

                  Thanks, I'll check out the site. I know she is already partially
                  dehydrated now, which is so sad, but she pretty much seems to be
                  herself. I'm kind of stuck between a rock and rock on this....so I
                  appreciate your sending me the site. I guess I always thought that
                  if I stopped the sub-q's she would go down much more quickly than she
                  has, but it's been a week and a day now, and she still seems pretty
                  much ok.

                  >
                  > I'm glad Monkey is still among us. // Rosemary

                  Thanks, Rosemary.....I know I have to come to terms with her dying,
                  and in many ways I have prepared myself, but I am scared of HOW she
                  might die.....

                  Meredith with Monkey
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