Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma

Expand Messages
  • Linda Cuéllar Irrgang
    What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the needs
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have
      higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the
      needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. I have read a lot
      about a lot of foods but wondered what everyone here might have
      experienced…..



      Thx for the help.



      Linda and Pumpkin



      -----Original Message-----
      From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of turkishangoraathumanesociety
      Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:46 PM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [FH] Re: food dilemma



      Hi Ruthie...I think Nutro is a great brand (and Authority right under
      that) that you can get both at PetSmart (Nutro at a number of stores).
      Even better, though, I think, (and more expensive)is Innova and
      California Natural...a bit harder to find, but they have a store
      locator on their site. Smaller stores carry them, independant pet
      stores and health food stores for people. The store locator can be
      found at www.naturapet.com






      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
      will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
      feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




      _____

      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



      * Visit your group "feline-heart
      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on the web.


      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


      * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



      _____



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Linda Fischbach
      Linda, I would try to feed a low phosphorus food. Linda ... From: Linda Cuéllar Irrgang To: turkishangoraathumanesociety
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Linda, I would try to feed a low phosphorus food.

        Linda

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Linda Cuéllar Irrgang" <irrgang@...>
        To: "'turkishangoraathumanesociety'"
        <turkishangoraathumanesociety@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:12 PM
        Subject: RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma


        What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have
        higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the
        needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. I have read a lot
        about a lot of foods but wondered what everyone here might have
        experienced...



        Thx for the help.



        Linda and Pumpkin



        -----Original Message-----
        From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of turkishangoraathumanesociety
        Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:46 PM
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [FH] Re: food dilemma



        Hi Ruthie...I think Nutro is a great brand (and Authority right under
        that) that you can get both at PetSmart (Nutro at a number of stores).
        Even better, though, I think, (and more expensive)is Innova and
        California Natural...a bit harder to find, but they have a store
        locator on their site. Smaller stores carry them, independant pet
        stores and health food stores for people. The store locator can be
        found at www.naturapet.com






        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
        will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
        feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




        _____

        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



        * Visit your group "feline-heart
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on the web.


        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


        * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



        _____



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
        will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
        feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Linda Cuéllar Irrgang
        But what brand is best….in wet vs. dry? ... From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda Fischbach Sent:
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 2, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          But what brand is best….in wet vs. dry?



          -----Original Message-----
          From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Linda Fischbach
          Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:17 PM
          To: 'turkishangoraathumanesociety'; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com; Linda
          Cuéllar Irrgang
          Subject: Re: [FH] Re: food dilemma



          Linda, I would try to feed a low phosphorus food.

          Linda

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Linda Cuéllar Irrgang" <irrgang@...>
          To: "'turkishangoraathumanesociety'"
          <turkishangoraathumanesociety@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:12 PM
          Subject: RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma


          What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have
          higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the
          needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. I have read a lot
          about a lot of foods but wondered what everyone here might have
          experienced...



          Thx for the help.



          Linda and Pumpkin



          -----Original Message-----
          From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of turkishangoraathumanesociety
          Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:46 PM
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [FH] Re: food dilemma



          Hi Ruthie...I think Nutro is a great brand (and Authority right under
          that) that you can get both at PetSmart (Nutro at a number of stores).
          Even better, though, I think, (and more expensive)is Innova and
          California Natural...a bit harder to find, but they have a store
          locator on their site. Smaller stores carry them, independant pet
          stores and health food stores for people. The store locator can be
          found at www.naturapet.com






          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




          _____

          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



          * Visit your group "feline-heart
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on the web.


          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links










          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




          SPONSORED LINKS


          Cat
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cat+health+insurance&w1=Cat+health+insu
          rance&w2=Cat+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+conditions
          &w6=Health+problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=jCcdGI6DrfclZUZfEbhKjQ> health
          insurance

          Cat
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cat+health+care&w1=Cat+health+insurance
          &w2=Cat+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+conditions&w6=H
          ealth+problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=sHAUYnOXqX421iiMASQuIw> health care

          Pet
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Pet+health+cat&w1=Cat+health+insurance&
          w2=Cat+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+conditions&w6=He
          alth+problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=Lcs7tukQKLtd6OGdgxZoJw> health cat


          Cat
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cat+health&w1=Cat+health+insurance&w2=C
          at+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+conditions&w6=Health
          +problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=frCXB-F06hVpm6m8Rmdyvw> health

          Heart
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Heart+conditions&w1=Cat+health+insuranc
          e&w2=Cat+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+conditions&w6=
          Health+problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=_zAGI3mljEo4tgsaN5zYFw> conditions

          Health
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Health+problem+in+cat&w1=Cat+health+ins
          urance&w2=Cat+health+care&w3=Pet+health+cat&w4=Cat+health&w5=Heart+condition
          s&w6=Health+problem+in+cat&c=6&s=132&.sig=UASqf76JeCyHxX8J7sXBdA> problem
          in cat



          _____

          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



          * Visit your group "feline-heart
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on the web.


          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Linda Fischbach
          Canned food is best. http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html and http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm can help with phosphorus. Linda
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Canned food is best.

            http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html and http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm can help with phosphorus.

            Linda
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Linda Cuéllar Irrgang
            To: 'Linda Fischbach' ; 'turkishangoraathumanesociety' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.comC ; 'Linda Cuéllar Irrgang'
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 PM
            Subject: RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma


            But what brand is best..in wet vs. dry?



            -----Original Message-----
            From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda Fischbach
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:17 PM
            To: 'turkishangoraathumanesociety'; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com; Linda Cuéllar Irrgang
            Subject: Re: [FH] Re: food dilemma



            Linda, I would try to feed a low phosphorus food.

            Linda

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Linda Cuéllar Irrgang" <irrgang@...>
            To: "'turkishangoraathumanesociety'"
            <turkishangoraathumanesociety@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:12 PM
            Subject: RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma


            What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have
            higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the
            needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. I have read a lot
            about a lot of foods but wondered what everyone here might have
            experienced...



            Thx for the help.



            Linda and Pumpkin



            -----Original Message-----
            From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of turkishangoraathumanesociety
            Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:46 PM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [FH] Re: food dilemma



            Hi Ruthie...I think Nutro is a great brand (and Authority right under
            that) that you can get both at PetSmart (Nutro at a number of stores).
            Even better, though, I think, (and more expensive)is Innova and
            California Natural...a bit harder to find, but they have a store
            locator on their site. Smaller stores carry them, independant pet
            stores and health food stores for people. The store locator can be
            found at www.naturapet.com






            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




            _____

            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



            * Visit your group "feline-heart
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on the web.


            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups Links










            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com




            SPONSORED LINKS

            Cat health insurance
            Cat health care
            Pet health cat

            Cat health
            Heart conditions
            Health problem in cat





            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



            § Visit your group "feline-heart" on the web.


            § To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


            § Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • savionna@aol.com
            Hi Linda, In a message dated 1/2/06 7:13:41 PM, irrgang@Houston.rr.com writes:
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Linda,

              In a message dated 1/2/06 7:13:41 PM, irrgang@... writes:

              << What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to have

              higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to the

              needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. >>

              Do you know why the creatinine values are rising? Are any other values out of
              range? Besides kidney insufficiency, creatinine can elevate for various
              reasons, incl urinary system infection, diet, dehydration, and metabolic disorders.
              If you suspect chronic kidney insufficiency (and other contributing factors
              are ruled out), then it's important to look at the cat's BUN, phosphorus,
              potassium, sodium, calcium, hematocrit, and urine specific gravity to get a fuller
              picture of the problem.

              The current thinking is that kidney cats require the same diet as other cats,
              incl those with heart disorders: a high-quality, low-carbohydrate,
              well-balanced, moisture-rich, meat-based diet that comes as close as possible to meeting
              a cat's nutritional needs. Cats with advanced (repeat: advanced) chronic
              renal failure may feel better when phosphorus is restricted, but that does nothing
              to halt progress of the disease. The recommendation to restrict protein (with
              such products as Hill's k/d) is now considered not only unnecessary but
              counterproductive for cats, as it contributes to malnutrition and muscle wasting
              and actually puts more stress on the kidneys. The low-protein theory was based
              on faulty interpretation of studies conducted in the early 1900s on rats and
              dogs, who have very diff. nutritional needs than do cats. There used to be
              several articles explaining this issue, but some are no longer available. One good
              one is: "Nutritional Management of Dogs and Cats with Chronic Renal Failure"
              by Kalkstein, DVM, DACVIM at www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm

              So, the answer is to feed the highest-quality species-appropriate diet
              possible. This eliminates all dry foods...and there is a short list of canned, incl:
              Wellness, www.oldmotherhubbard.com; Nature's Variety, www.naturesvariety.com;
              PetGuard, www.petguard.com; Felidae, www.canidae.com; Natural Balance,
              www.naturalbalanceinc.com; Innova, www.naturapet.com; and Eagle Pack,
              www.eaglepack.com.

              You can check the phosphorus content of many foods at:
              http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm. // Rosemary
            • Linda Fischbach
              I agree that a cat in early CRF does not need a low protein diet, but I have to disagree about the phosphorus. The article you included discusses protein, not
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree that a cat in early CRF does not need a low protein diet, but I have
                to disagree about the phosphorus. The article you included discusses
                protein, not phosphorus.

                As far as I know, there is no debate about that feeding CRF cats a low
                phosphorus diet is better, even in early CRF. Keeping the cat's phosphorus
                level as close to 4 as possible is important. There are good high protein
                foods with low phosphorus, and with high phosphorus. For instance Wysong's
                canned gourmet has low, but is also fairly high protein and low carb. But
                some premium foods are very high in phosphorus.

                Interestingly, cooked skinless chicken thighs (obviously high in protein)
                have about the same amount of phosphorus per 100 calories as K/D has per 100
                calories. So high protein doesn't always mean high phosphorus.

                Linda


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <savionna@...>
                To: <irrgang@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [FH] Re: food dilemma


                > Hi Linda,
                >
                > In a message dated 1/2/06 7:13:41 PM, irrgang@... writes:
                >
                > << What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin who is starting to
                > have
                >
                > higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food that is tailored to
                > the
                >
                > needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys. >>
                >
                > Do you know why the creatinine values are rising? Are any other values out
                > of
                > range? Besides kidney insufficiency, creatinine can elevate for various
                > reasons, incl urinary system infection, diet, dehydration, and metabolic
                > disorders.
                > If you suspect chronic kidney insufficiency (and other contributing
                > factors
                > are ruled out), then it's important to look at the cat's BUN, phosphorus,
                > potassium, sodium, calcium, hematocrit, and urine specific gravity to get
                > a fuller
                > picture of the problem.
                >
                > The current thinking is that kidney cats require the same diet as other
                > cats,
                > incl those with heart disorders: a high-quality, low-carbohydrate,
                > well-balanced, moisture-rich, meat-based diet that comes as close as
                > possible to meeting
                > a cat's nutritional needs. Cats with advanced (repeat: advanced) chronic
                > renal failure may feel better when phosphorus is restricted, but that does
                > nothing
                > to halt progress of the disease. The recommendation to restrict protein
                > (with
                > such products as Hill's k/d) is now considered not only unnecessary but
                > counterproductive for cats, as it contributes to malnutrition and muscle
                > wasting
                > and actually puts more stress on the kidneys. The low-protein theory was
                > based
                > on faulty interpretation of studies conducted in the early 1900s on rats
                > and
                > dogs, who have very diff. nutritional needs than do cats. There used to be
                > several articles explaining this issue, but some are no longer available.
                > One good
                > one is: "Nutritional Management of Dogs and Cats with Chronic Renal
                > Failure"
                > by Kalkstein, DVM, DACVIM at www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm
                >
                > So, the answer is to feed the highest-quality species-appropriate diet
                > possible. This eliminates all dry foods...and there is a short list of
                > canned, incl:
                > Wellness, www.oldmotherhubbard.com; Nature's Variety,
                > www.naturesvariety.com;
                > PetGuard, www.petguard.com; Felidae, www.canidae.com; Natural Balance,
                > www.naturalbalanceinc.com; Innova, www.naturapet.com; and Eagle Pack,
                > www.eaglepack.com.
                >
                > You can check the phosphorus content of many foods at:
                > http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm. // Rosemary
                >
                >
                >
                > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                > will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                > feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Dana McCormick
                Linda, As a parent to 2 kidney kitties & lucky parent to 1 kidney transplant kitty, I can tell you it s best to feed the protein restricted food. My Creampuff
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Linda,

                  As a parent to 2 kidney kitties & lucky parent to 1
                  kidney transplant kitty, I can tell you it's best to
                  feed the protein restricted food. My Creampuff lived
                  w/ CRF for 6.5 yrs & was on Hills K/D dry, she
                  wouldn't eat the canned. I firmly believe she
                  wouldn't have done so well for so long with a regular
                  food. My Mouse also ate this, again, wouldn't eat the
                  canned. They didn't love the food, but ate it. The
                  reason you need this type of food is because it allows
                  the kidneys to not have to work so hard. There is some
                  debate on this issue, but all the kidney specialists
                  I've spoken to go with the low protein theory.
                  Mousie's surgeon & the other surgeons in this very
                  limited field also go w/ the low protein & I would say
                  their opinions are very relevant. What's Pumpkin's
                  creatinine, BUN & PCV?

                  Creampuff got Alternagel as a phosphorous binder,
                  Mousie never needed it.

                  Feel free to drop a line if you need more info.

                  Dana

                  --- Linda Cuéllar Irrgang <irrgang@...>
                  wrote:

                  > What would you say is the best food for my Pumpkin
                  > who is starting to have
                  > higher creatinine values? He needs a specialty food
                  > that is tailored to the
                  > needs of an HCM kitty and also best for his kidneys.
                  > I have read a lot
                  > about a lot of foods but wondered what everyone here
                  > might have
                  > experienced…..
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thx for the help.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Linda and Pumpkin
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of turkishangoraathumanesociety
                  > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:46 PM
                  > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [FH] Re: food dilemma
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Ruthie...I think Nutro is a great brand (and
                  > Authority right under
                  > that) that you can get both at PetSmart (Nutro at a
                  > number of stores).
                  > Even better, though, I think, (and more expensive)is
                  > Innova and
                  > California Natural...a bit harder to find, but they
                  > have a store
                  > locator on their site. Smaller stores carry them,
                  > independant pet
                  > stores and health food stores for people. The store
                  > locator can be
                  > found at www.naturapet.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If
                  > you feel your reply
                  > will benefit the entire group, please change the
                  > "To:" line to
                  > feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > * Visit your group "feline-heart
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart> " on
                  > the web.
                  >
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                  > email to:
                  > feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > the Yahoo!
                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of
                  > Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >





                  __________________________________
                  Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
                  http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
                • Linda Fischbach
                  Dana, if you need to give a phosphorus binder, you can buy containers of aluminum hydroxide dried gel powder, which is tasteless and odorless
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dana, if you need to give a phosphorus binder, you can buy containers of
                    aluminum hydroxide dried gel powder, which is tasteless and odorless
                    http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/binders.htm.

                    Remember that phosphorus should be below 6, and as close to 4 as possible.

                    Linda

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Dana McCormick" <danamcmk@...>
                    To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:52 PM
                    Subject: RE: [FH] Re: food dilemma


                    > Linda,
                    >
                    > As a parent to 2 kidney kitties & lucky parent to 1
                    > kidney transplant kitty, I can tell you it's best to
                    > feed the protein restricted food. My Creampuff lived
                    > w/ CRF for 6.5 yrs & was on Hills K/D dry, she
                    > wouldn't eat the canned. I firmly believe she
                    > wouldn't have done so well for so long with a regular
                    > food. My Mouse also ate this, again, wouldn't eat the
                    > canned. They didn't love the food, but ate it. The
                    > reason you need this type of food is because it allows
                    > the kidneys to not have to work so hard. There is some
                    > debate on this issue, but all the kidney specialists
                    > I've spoken to go with the low protein theory.
                    > Mousie's surgeon & the other surgeons in this very
                    > limited field also go w/ the low protein & I would say
                    > their opinions are very relevant. What's Pumpkin's
                    > creatinine, BUN & PCV?
                    >
                    > Creampuff got Alternagel as a phosphorous binder,
                    > Mousie never needed it.
                    >
                    > Feel free to drop a line if you need more info.
                    >
                    > Dana
                  • savionna@aol.com
                    Hi Linda, In a message dated 1/3/06 10:38:08 AM, fischbl@earthlink.net writes:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 4, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Linda,

                      In a message dated 1/3/06 10:38:08 AM, fischbl@... writes:

                      << I agree that a cat in early CRF does not need a low protein diet, but I
                      have

                      to disagree about the phosphorus. >>

                      I think we also agree about phosphorus...but I didn't express myself clearly
                      in this complex issue. So thanks for picking up on this.

                      << As far as I know, there is no debate about that feeding CRF cats a low

                      phosphorus diet is better, even in early CRF. >>

                      I agree. But a diet with a "low" level of phosphorus is appropriate for all
                      cats...healthy, CRF, or cardiac...which is why I didn't call it out (but in
                      retrospect should have). I think part of the muddle may be with the definition of
                      "low."

                      To back up a little...mineral levels and balance are important for all cats,
                      esp the balance between phosphorus and calcium. And it's not a good idea for
                      any cat to regularly eat a "high" amt of phosphorus (like over
                      300-400mg/100kcal), even if it is balanced with calcium. The current recommendation is that a
                      healthy adult cat needs about 65-70mg phosphorus per kg body weight. So the
                      average 10 lb cat (4.5kg) needs about 300mg phosphorus daily.

                      Many of the commercial foods with higher-quality nutrition (eg Wellness,
                      Nature's Variety, Felidae, PetGuard) have flavors with about 1% phosphorus DM or
                      about/under 200mg/100kcal. If the average healthy 10-lb adult cat eats 200
                      calories of that food per day (to meet the average calorie requirement of 20
                      cal/lb/day), then he's getting about/under 400mg phosphorus. (By comparison,
                      typical prey animals...eg mouse, rat, rabbit, bird...have about 2-3% phosphorus DM
                      or about 200-300mg/100kcal.)

                      So is about 1% DM or 200mg/kcal low enough? (I thought it was.) Or do you
                      think a more severe restriction (like about 0.5% DM or 100mg/100kcal) is more
                      appropriate for a cat with elevated creatinine (which may indicate early kidney
                      insufficiency, tho I wasn't clear whether Linda's cat has CRF)? Are cats with
                      very restricted phosphorus intake at greater risk for metabolic acidosis and/or
                      anemia?

                      << Keeping the cat's phosphorus

                      level as close to 4 as possible is important. >>

                      Yes. A blood level around 4 mg/dL is important for all cats. Do you think
                      feeding a product with around 1% phosphorus DM would adversely affect the blood
                      phosphorus level for most cats?

                      << Interestingly, cooked skinless chicken thighs (obviously high in protein)

                      have about the same amount of phosphorus per 100 calories as K/D has per 100

                      calories. >>

                      Also interesting is that cooked skinless chicken thighs contain about twice
                      as much protein as k/d. 100kcal thighs = about 12.5g protein and 85mg
                      phosphorus. 100kcal k/d = about 6.5g protein and 80mg phosphorus.

                      And just to follow up on the low-protein issue for those juggling kidney and
                      heart disorders...there are a number of articles that cover the evolution of
                      the reduced-protein theory and why it's now considered inappropriate. They are
                      mostly about dogs, but the information is by and large applicable to cats, who
                      have a higher dietary protein requirement than do dogs and an essential need
                      for certain amino acids. (The first 2 had disappeared from the net for a
                      while, but are now available again in PDF format; click on the link below, then
                      scroll to find the hot link for the article titles):

                      1. "Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function,"
                      by Kenneth Bovee, DVM, MMedSc (UPenn) at
                      http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/KidneyDiseaseInDogs/diet.htm

                      2. "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions," by Delmar Finco,
                      DVM, PhD (Univ of Ga) at
                      http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/KidneyDiseaseInDogs/diet.htm

                      3. "Dietary Protein and the Kidney" by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD (Michigan
                      State Univ) at
                      http://web.archive.org/web/20040205075757/http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html

                      4. www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

                      // Rosemary
                    • Linda Fischbach
                      Rosemary, I saved this and then never answered you. For a cat with CRF, a lower phosphorus died is best. 1%DM is really the highest one should feed, but 1%
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 5, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Rosemary, I saved this and then never answered you. For a cat with CRF, a
                        lower phosphorus died is best. 1%DM is really the highest one should feed,
                        but 1% really isn't that low. The kidneys usually remove the phosphorus
                        from the blood, but as CRF advances, the kidneys are more and more
                        inefficient about removing the phosphorus, so it tends to increase in the
                        blood.

                        With advanced CRF, a cat can have a phosphorus level of 10-20, even eating
                        very low phosphorus food. So phosphorus binders (aluminum hydroxide) are
                        used to bind even the small amount that is eaten. Most peope use binders
                        when a CRF cat's phosphorus gets above 6.

                        I lost my first CRF cat in 2000; Mittens and Topaz, who both had CRF, died
                        last year, but not from CRF. I fed Mittens and Topaz a moderately high
                        protein diet, but as low in phosphorus as K/D. They also had some binders
                        and their phosphorus level stayed close to 4.

                        Now I have one cat with early CRF. I've been a member of CRF Support for
                        over 6 years, and a mod for 5. And I own the Phosphorus Management group.

                        Linda

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <Savionna@...>
                        To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; <fischbl@...>
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:26 AM
                        Subject: Re: [FH] Re: food dilemma


                        > Hi Linda,
                        >
                        > In a message dated 1/3/06 10:38:08 AM, fischbl@... writes:
                        >
                        > << I agree that a cat in early CRF does not need a low protein diet, but I
                        > have
                        >
                        > to disagree about the phosphorus. >>
                        >
                        > I think we also agree about phosphorus...but I didn't express myself
                        > clearly
                        > in this complex issue. So thanks for picking up on this.
                        >
                        > << As far as I know, there is no debate about that feeding CRF cats a low
                        >
                        > phosphorus diet is better, even in early CRF. >>
                        >
                        > I agree. But a diet with a "low" level of phosphorus is appropriate for
                        > all
                        > cats...healthy, CRF, or cardiac...which is why I didn't call it out (but
                        > in
                        > retrospect should have). I think part of the muddle may be with the
                        > definition of
                        > "low."
                        >
                        > To back up a little...mineral levels and balance are important for all
                        > cats,
                        > esp the balance between phosphorus and calcium. And it's not a good idea
                        > for
                        > any cat to regularly eat a "high" amt of phosphorus (like over
                        > 300-400mg/100kcal), even if it is balanced with calcium. The current
                        > recommendation is that a
                        > healthy adult cat needs about 65-70mg phosphorus per kg body weight. So
                        > the
                        > average 10 lb cat (4.5kg) needs about 300mg phosphorus daily.
                        >
                        > Many of the commercial foods with higher-quality nutrition (eg Wellness,
                        > Nature's Variety, Felidae, PetGuard) have flavors with about 1% phosphorus
                        > DM or
                        > about/under 200mg/100kcal. If the average healthy 10-lb adult cat eats 200
                        > calories of that food per day (to meet the average calorie requirement of
                        > 20
                        > cal/lb/day), then he's getting about/under 400mg phosphorus. (By
                        > comparison,
                        > typical prey animals...eg mouse, rat, rabbit, bird...have about 2-3%
                        > phosphorus DM
                        > or about 200-300mg/100kcal.)
                        >
                        > So is about 1% DM or 200mg/kcal low enough? (I thought it was.) Or do you
                        > think a more severe restriction (like about 0.5% DM or 100mg/100kcal) is
                        > more
                        > appropriate for a cat with elevated creatinine (which may indicate early
                        > kidney
                        > insufficiency, tho I wasn't clear whether Linda's cat has CRF)? Are cats
                        > with
                        > very restricted phosphorus intake at greater risk for metabolic acidosis
                        > and/or
                        > anemia?
                        >
                        > << Keeping the cat's phosphorus
                        >
                        > level as close to 4 as possible is important. >>
                        >
                        > Yes. A blood level around 4 mg/dL is important for all cats. Do you think
                        > feeding a product with around 1% phosphorus DM would adversely affect the
                        > blood
                        > phosphorus level for most cats?
                        >
                        > << Interestingly, cooked skinless chicken thighs (obviously high in
                        > protein)
                        >
                        > have about the same amount of phosphorus per 100 calories as K/D has per
                        > 100
                        >
                        > calories. >>
                        >
                        > Also interesting is that cooked skinless chicken thighs contain about
                        > twice
                        > as much protein as k/d. 100kcal thighs = about 12.5g protein and 85mg
                        > phosphorus. 100kcal k/d = about 6.5g protein and 80mg phosphorus.
                        >
                        > And just to follow up on the low-protein issue for those juggling kidney
                        > and
                        > heart disorders...there are a number of articles that cover the evolution
                        > of
                        > the reduced-protein theory and why it's now considered inappropriate. They
                        > are
                        > mostly about dogs, but the information is by and large applicable to cats,
                        > who
                        > have a higher dietary protein requirement than do dogs and an essential
                        > need
                        > for certain amino acids. (The first 2 had disappeared from the net for a
                        > while, but are now available again in PDF format; click on the link below,
                        > then
                        > scroll to find the hot link for the article titles):
                        >
                        > 1. "Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal
                        > Function,"
                        > by Kenneth Bovee, DVM, MMedSc (UPenn) at
                        > http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/KidneyDiseaseInDogs/diet.htm
                        >
                        > 2. "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions," by Delmar
                        > Finco,
                        > DVM, PhD (Univ of Ga) at
                        > http://vetprof.com/clientinfo/KidneyDiseaseInDogs/diet.htm
                        >
                        > 3. "Dietary Protein and the Kidney" by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD
                        > (Michigan
                        > State Univ) at
                        > http://web.archive.org/web/20040205075757/http://www.cm-d.com/buckeye/tech_manual/8_28.html
                        >
                        > 4. www.dogaware.com/kidney.html
                        >
                        > // Rosemary
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.