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Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too

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  • Sue B
    Hi, What cute kittens! Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on this group would help improve the health of any cat. They are good
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Hi,

      What cute kittens!

      Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on this group
      would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
      supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.

      I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can affect
      the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from her rabies
      shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it was the
      first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).

      Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?



      Sue


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@...>
      To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:51 PM
      Subject: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too


      > Tinytim, who has a clubfoot, is a grade 1. Cameron is a grade 2. We
      > go back to the vet in 10 days for another listen and booster shots
      > for the distemper. Poor little guys...anyone know what the chances
      > are that they are developing severe HCM like my darling Dexter, given
      > that they are from the same inbreeding momma and daddy kitties?
      >
      > Poor little Timmy - he is absolutely adorable and I was so sure would
      > find a home in a snap because of the clubfoot but now...who knows?
      >
      > Here are pictures of my precious boys if I may show them off:
      >
      > Tinytim (3 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393964.jpeg
      >
      > Cameron (3 mos) (ok, he's more annoying than precious)
      > http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/394114.jpeg
      >
      > Dexter (8 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393382.jpeg
      >
      > I guess I can start them on supplements under the assumption that
      > they too have HCM - maybe it will keep it from getting as bad as
      > their brother's?
      >
      >
    • taloah2000
      Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality. I have a couple more supplement questions. I
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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        Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my
        favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.

        I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people are
        using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the same
        thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
        cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?"
        I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount of
        each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having to
        mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any thoughts
        on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?

        Thanks!

        Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and forever
        kitty Gracie)


        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > What cute kittens!
        >
        > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
        this group
        > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
        > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
        >
        > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
        affect
        > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
        her rabies
        > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
        was the
        > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
        >
        > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
        >
        >
        >
        > Sue
        >
      • taloah2000
        ... this group ... affect ... her rabies ... was the ... We ... given ... would
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > What cute kittens!
          >
          > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
          this group
          > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
          > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
          >
          > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
          affect
          > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
          her rabies
          > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
          was the
          > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
          >
          > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
          >
          >
          >
          > Sue
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@c...>
          > To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:51 PM
          > Subject: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
          >
          >
          > > Tinytim, who has a clubfoot, is a grade 1. Cameron is a grade 2.
          We
          > > go back to the vet in 10 days for another listen and booster shots
          > > for the distemper. Poor little guys...anyone know what the chances
          > > are that they are developing severe HCM like my darling Dexter,
          given
          > > that they are from the same inbreeding momma and daddy kitties?
          > >
          > > Poor little Timmy - he is absolutely adorable and I was so sure
          would
          > > find a home in a snap because of the clubfoot but now...who knows?
          > >
          > > Here are pictures of my precious boys if I may show them off:
          > >
          > > Tinytim (3 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393964.jpeg
          > >
          > > Cameron (3 mos) (ok, he's more annoying than precious)
          > > http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/394114.jpeg
          > >
          > > Dexter (8 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393382.jpeg
          > >
          > > I guess I can start them on supplements under the assumption that
          > > they too have HCM - maybe it will keep it from getting as bad as
          > > their brother's?
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Sue B
          Lisa, I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say. I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned that
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Lisa,

            I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say.

            I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned
            that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp contains
            something that may actually be harmful and there's too many carbohydrates.

            My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
            http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html



            Sue


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@...>
            To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too


            > Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my
            > favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
            >
            > I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people are
            > using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the same
            > thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
            > cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?"
            > I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount of
            > each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having to
            > mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any thoughts
            > on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and forever
            > kitty Gracie)
            >
            >
            > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > What cute kittens!
            > >
            > > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
            > this group
            > > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
            > > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
            > >
            > > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
            > affect
            > > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
            > her rabies
            > > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
            > was the
            > > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
            > >
            > > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Sue
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Lisa Clarizia
            Sue (and Lisa), It wasn t me ... Rosemary s the nutrional guru :) Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) -- they are different, aside
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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              Sue (and Lisa),

              It wasn't me ... Rosemary's the nutrional guru :)

              Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) -- they are
              different, aside from the number of methyl groups, they do different things.

              DMG serves as an oxygen transport molecule and methyl donor in the
              respiratory cycle of cells. It is dervived from TMG in the body, which in
              turn is derived from choline. I give this because Baby Boy's heart has the
              elasticity of a sandwich baggie and I figure he needs all the help with
              oxygenation he can get.

              TMG, on the other hand, methylates and detoxifies homocysteine (which is
              harmful) to form methionine (an amino acid). It's debatable how much good
              the elimination of homocysteine will actually do for a cat with a
              cardiomyopathy, since homocysteine is implicated in coronary artery disease,
              not cardiomyopathy -- but I give it on the theory that if it helps protect
              the integrity of the blood vessel linings, it can't hurt and may have a
              *slight* benefit in terms of preventing clot formation.

              Basically, if you were to give just one (and with so many cats getting
              buckets of supplements, you might want to do this) I'd give TMG, since you
              will end up with DMG as a breakdown product of TMG.

              Lisa

              On 11/2/05, Sue B <rockii@...> wrote:
              >
              > Lisa,
              >
              > I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say.
              >
              > I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned
              > that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp contains
              > something that may actually be harmful and there's too many carbohydrates.
              >
              > My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
              > http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html
              >
              >
              >
              > Sue
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@...>
              > To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:21 AM
              > Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
              >
              >
              > > Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my
              > > favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
              > >
              > > I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people are
              > > using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the same
              > > thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
              > > cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?"
              > > I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount of
              > > each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having to
              > > mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any thoughts
              > > on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
              > >
              > > Thanks!
              > >
              > > Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and forever
              > > kitty Gracie)
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi,
              > > >
              > > > What cute kittens!
              > > >
              > > > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
              > > this group
              > > > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
              > > > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
              > > >
              > > > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
              > > affect
              > > > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
              > > her rabies
              > > > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
              > > was the
              > > > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
              > > >
              > > > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Sue
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
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              >
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              --
              Lisa Clarizia
              lclarizia@...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sue B
              Lisa, Interesting.... What form do you use and how much? I m current giving Pepper .5 ml twice daily of the liquid DMG from US Animal Nutritionals. Where do
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                Lisa,

                Interesting.... What form do you use and how much? I'm current giving Pepper .5 ml twice daily of the liquid DMG from US Animal Nutritionals.

                Where do you get yours?



                Sue


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Lisa Clarizia
                To: Sue B
                Cc: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 12:02 PM
                Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too


                Sue (and Lisa),

                It wasn't me ... Rosemary's the nutrional guru :)

                Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) -- they are different, aside from the number of methyl groups, they do different things.

                DMG serves as an oxygen transport molecule and methyl donor in the respiratory cycle of cells. It is dervived from TMG in the body, which in turn is derived from choline. I give this because Baby Boy's heart has the elasticity of a sandwich baggie and I figure he needs all the help with oxygenation he can get.

                TMG, on the other hand, methylates and detoxifies homocysteine (which is harmful) to form methionine (an amino acid). It's debatable how much good the elimination of homocysteine will actually do for a cat with a cardiomyopathy, since homocysteine is implicated in coronary artery disease, not cardiomyopathy -- but I give it on the theory that if it helps protect the integrity of the blood vessel linings, it can't hurt and may have a *slight* benefit in terms of preventing clot formation.

                Basically, if you were to give just one (and with so many cats getting buckets of supplements, you might want to do this) I'd give TMG, since you will end up with DMG as a breakdown product of TMG.

                Lisa


                On 11/2/05, Sue B <rockii@...> wrote:
                Lisa,

                I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say.

                I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned
                that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp contains
                something that may actually be harmful and there's too many carbohydrates.

                My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
                http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html



                Sue



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • taloah2000
                Sue, your girl is beautiful! I always said the only way I d get another cat was if a Maine Coon rescue fell in my lap like my last guy - he was such a love.
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  Sue, your girl is beautiful! I always said the only way I'd get
                  another cat was if a Maine Coon rescue fell in my lap like my last
                  guy - he was such a love. But Dexter is so much like one that I am
                  seriously tempted to keep him (though am a bit leery of having foster
                  kids who may have major issues around him). Thanks for the tip on
                  Missing Link - I will stay away!

                  Anyone know of any other good powdered supplement that I could mix my
                  taurine, TMG, and carnitine in to simplify life a bit?

                  Lisa, I guess I need to find out more about how efficiently TMG is
                  converted into DMG since it seems to be the more important
                  supplement. I had TMG already since I take it to keep my own
                  homocysteine levels down and ward off depression. Thanks for the
                  explanation - I didn't realize DMG had a function beyond methyl
                  donation.

                  Thank you for your help!

                  Lisa

                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Clarizia <lclarizia@g...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Sue (and Lisa),
                  >
                  > It wasn't me ... Rosemary's the nutrional guru :)
                  >
                  > Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) --
                  they are
                  > different, aside from the number of methyl groups, they do
                  different things.
                  >
                  > DMG serves as an oxygen transport molecule and methyl donor in the
                  > respiratory cycle of cells. It is dervived from TMG in the body,
                  which in
                  > turn is derived from choline. I give this because Baby Boy's heart
                  has the
                  > elasticity of a sandwich baggie and I figure he needs all the help
                  with
                  > oxygenation he can get.
                  >
                  > TMG, on the other hand, methylates and detoxifies homocysteine
                  (which is
                  > harmful) to form methionine (an amino acid). It's debatable how
                  much good
                  > the elimination of homocysteine will actually do for a cat with a
                  > cardiomyopathy, since homocysteine is implicated in coronary artery
                  disease,
                  > not cardiomyopathy -- but I give it on the theory that if it helps
                  protect
                  > the integrity of the blood vessel linings, it can't hurt and may
                  have a
                  > *slight* benefit in terms of preventing clot formation.
                  >
                  > Basically, if you were to give just one (and with so many cats
                  getting
                  > buckets of supplements, you might want to do this) I'd give TMG,
                  since you
                  > will end up with DMG as a breakdown product of TMG.
                  >
                  > Lisa
                  >
                  > On 11/2/05, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Lisa,
                  > >
                  > > I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people
                  have to say.
                  > >
                  > > I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?)
                  mentioned
                  > > that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp
                  contains
                  > > something that may actually be harmful and there's too many
                  carbohydrates.
                  > >
                  > > My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
                  > > http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Sue
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@c...>
                  > > To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:21 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is
                  my
                  > > > favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people
                  are
                  > > > using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the
                  same
                  > > > thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
                  > > > cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing
                  Link?"
                  > > > I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount
                  of
                  > > > each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having
                  to
                  > > > mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any
                  thoughts
                  > > > on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks!
                  > > >
                  > > > Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and
                  forever
                  > > > kitty Gracie)
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What cute kittens!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended
                  on
                  > > > this group
                  > > > > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-
                  round
                  > > > > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the
                  vaccinations can
                  > > > affect
                  > > > > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis
                  from
                  > > > her rabies
                  > > > > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize
                  what it
                  > > > was the
                  > > > > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years
                  later).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Sue
                  >
                • MJ Johnson
                  Tinytim is so cute! Where do you live? Michigan? [She asked hopefully?] I have two older kitties, one with both HCM and CRF, but it wouldn t preclude
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Tinytim is so cute! Where do you live? Michigan?
                    [She asked hopefully?]

                    I have two older kitties, one with both HCM and CRF,
                    but it wouldn't preclude adoption of a new fur baby,
                    or at least help finding a home for him : )

                    And our furry family commends you for being such a
                    good kitty mom to look after your little ones.

                    Sending you great kitty karma and wishes for homes for
                    your babies,
                    MJ & Rupert & Bimmer
                    >^..^<



                    __________________________________
                    Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                    http://farechase.yahoo.com
                  • taloah2000
                    Sorry - I am in Metro DC. But yeah, he is utterly adorable. :) And I really couldn t have done anything else - I am glad to have the chance to get them started
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sorry - I am in Metro DC. But yeah, he is utterly adorable. :) And I
                      really couldn't have done anything else - I am glad to have the chance
                      to get them started on a good life. I do so hope their little hearts
                      are ok so that they will be easy to place.

                      I dunno what it is with me and pets I have fostered/adopted - the
                      first cat I got from the animal shelter had a double heart murmur
                      (she's with my mom now as she likes to go outside and I won't let her
                      here - 7 yrs old and going strong), my foster dog had a heart murmur
                      and arrhythmia , though not serious, and now three out of four foster
                      kitties have heart murmurs!!

                      Thank you for the good wishes for my little guys. :)

                      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, MJ Johnson <mjj_007@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tinytim is so cute! Where do you live? Michigan?
                      > [She asked hopefully?]
                      >
                      > I have two older kitties, one with both HCM and CRF,
                      > but it wouldn't preclude adoption of a new fur baby,
                      > or at least help finding a home for him : )
                      >
                      > And our furry family commends you for being such a
                      > good kitty mom to look after your little ones.
                      >
                      > Sending you great kitty karma and wishes for homes for
                      > your babies,
                      > MJ & Rupert & Bimmer
                      > >^..^<
                      >
                    • savionna@aol.com
                      Hi Lisa, In a message dated 11/2/05 11:29:07 AM, lisabee@caliescali.com writes: No.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                        Hi Lisa,

                        In a message dated 11/2/05 11:29:07 AM, lisabee@... writes:

                        << And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?" >>

                        No.


                        << Any thoughts

                        on whether this stuff is truly useful or not? >>

                        It is not the slightest bit useful to anyone other than the mfr, which
                        profits from our ignorance.

                        These are the primary ingredients in the product: flax seed, blackstrap
                        molasses, rice bran, primary dried yeast, freeze dried liver, sunflower seed,
                        dehydrated alfalfa, dried carrot, freeze dried bone, dried fish meal, freeze dried
                        oyster, sprouted green barley, dried kelp, lecithin, garlic, and yucca
                        schidigera extract.

                        With the exception of liver and bone (and we don't know from which species),
                        none of those ingredients bears any resemblance to any food that cats have
                        eaten thruout their evolutionary history, nor do they have a nutritional profile
                        that compares with any food in the cat's evolutionary diet. There is no valid
                        nutritional reason to feed a cat any of those ingredients...nor to use the
                        product, not least of all b/c there is no information on what nutrients those
                        ingredients contain and in what amts. If a cat really needs the nutrients in a
                        carrot (and it doesn't), why not feed a carrot? Further, many of the ingredients
                        are potentially problematic. Just a few examples: alfalfa contains cavanine,
                        which can block arginine, an essential amino acid for cats; kelp can affect
                        thyroid function; and garlic is a risk factor for a type of anemia.

                        If the cat truly needs nutritional support, there is a good multisupplement
                        available called NuCat (www.vetriscience.com), also sold as Tabby Tabs by a
                        sister company (www.usanimalnutritionals.com). And there are quality human brand
                        supplements available for many individual nutrients. // Rosemary
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