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Re: [FH] Maillard reaction and salmonella

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  • lclarizia@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/1/2005 10:38:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I m not really up on my food chemistry, but I think the browning we re referring to here
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 1 7:57 PM
      In a message dated 6/1/2005 10:38:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      nsera@... writes:


      > Well, if it's a browning reaction, and cooked meat browns both within
      > and without, it would seem as though cooked meat is not good for cats.
      > But if you feed them raw meat, it has the possibility of being
      > contaminated with salmonella. How do cats react to salmonella?
      > Certainly wild cats eat raw birds and rodents, but I don't know if they
      > are salmonella carriers -- however, factory-farmed chicken is most
      > definitely a salmonella carrier!! Is it safe to feed raw, ground turkey
      > or chicken?

      I'm not really up on my food chemistry, but I think the 'browning' we're
      referring to here is a surface reaction -- not the same thing as 'cooked' although
      heating/cooking any meat can and does destroy some of the nutritional
      content. This is why some people prefer to feed their companion animals a raw diet,
      both for the unadulterated nutritional content and because it closely models
      the wild-type diet. Rosemary knows much more about this than I, I'm sure she
      will have something to contribute.

      As for the safety of feeding raw -- you're going to find arguments for both
      sides. There are some who would never do it because of the risk of things like
      salmonella, and those who feel that it's a small risk, and a healthy animal
      is not at great risk for things like salmonella. Cats can get salmonella
      poisoning, just as we do.

      As far as I know, pretty much any species can be a carrier -- mammal, bird,
      reptile -- and safety of meat depends on the conditions where it's processed,
      but generally speaking, raw ground meats tend to be more risky than whole
      muscle or organ as the bacteria, if any, can be 'ground' throughout it whereas it
      can be mechanically removed from organ/muscle by washing it off the surface.

      Bacteria are everywhere, you come into contact with salmonella species every
      day. Whether or not you get sick depends on what strain of bacteria you come
      in contact with (pathogenic, weakly pathogenic, benign), how you come in
      contact with it, and the inoculating dose you come into contact with, and your
      general state of health.

      Lisa


      "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."

      - Anatole France


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Shannon
      I have heard of cats getting sick from mice if the mice were poisoned prior to being caught by the cat. I would imagine that even if the cat didn t eat the
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 1 8:11 PM
        I have heard of cats getting sick from mice if the mice were poisoned prior
        to being caught by the cat. I would imagine that even if the cat didn't eat
        the mouse, sinking his teeth into the mouse could transmit something but
        probably not in a large enough amount to cause serious harm.

        Shannon
        Daisy: Maine Coon mix, 4 years old, diagnosed at age 1-1/2, asymptomatic
        HCM, 6.25 mg atenolol daily
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Susan" <somnamblst@...>
        To: "Natalie A. Sera" <nsera@...>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [FH] Maillard reaction and salmonella


        >
        >
        > --- "Natalie A. Sera" <nsera@...> wrote:
        >
        >>
        >> On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:18 PM, Lclarizia@... wrote:
        >>
        >> > In a message dated 6/1/2005 3:12:12 PM Eastern
        >> Daylight Time,
        >> > nsera@... writes:
        >> >> So, what's the Maillard reaction???
        >> >
        >> > It's a heat conversion of carbonyl and amino
        >> groups which result in
        >> > browning of food. There's an explanation here:
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        > http://www.agsci.ubc.ca/courses/fnh/410/colour/3_82.htm
        >> >
        >> > I believe, though don't quote me on this because
        >> I'd have to double
        >> > check to be sure, the reaction on the free amino
        >> group of taurine
        >> > renders it un-absorbable to the cat and food for
        >> bacteria.
        >>
        >> Well, if it's a browning reaction, and cooked meat
        >> browns both within
        >> and without, it would seem as though cooked meat is
        >> not good for cats.
        >> But if you feed them raw meat, it has the
        >> possibility of being
        >> contaminated with salmonella. How do cats react to
        >> salmonella?
        >> Certainly wild cats eat raw birds and rodents, but I
        >> don't know if they
        >> are salmonella carriers -- however, factory-farmed
        >> chicken is most
        >> definitely a salmonella carrier!! Is it safe to feed
        >> raw, ground turkey
        >> or chicken?
        >>
        >> Natalie ._c>
        >>
        >
        > from:
        >
        > http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=81801
        >
        > "The November/December 2003 issue of the Journal of
        > the American Animal Hospital Association provides a
        > case report detailing the occurrence of septicemic
        > salmonellosis in two cats fed a raw meat diet (Stiver
        > et al. Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed A
        > Raw-Meat Diet. J Am An Hosp Assoc 203;39:538-542.
        > Accessible via www.jaaha.org).
        >
        > The two cats were part of a cattery environment and
        > demonstrated clinical signs of gastrointestinal upset,
        > weight loss, and anorexia that quickly progressed to a
        > moribund clinical state and death. Postmortem
        > examination confirmed septicemic salmonellosis as the
        > underlying etiology with tissue cultures identifying
        > Salmonella typhimurium in one cat, and Salmonella
        > newport in the other. Similar culture results were
        > obtained from the raw food fed to the latter cat."
        >
        > My cat who spent most of yesterday playing with but
        > not eating a live wild mouse (I kept taking it away
        > from him, but somehow he kept finding it or its
        > littermates) is today not feeling well and not eating.
        > I haven't found anything on diseases mice carry that
        > can affect a cat that has not eaten the mouse. Perhaps
        > a coincidence. He did however kill one he found in the
        > house last week, but did not eat them.
        >
        > Susan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Susan
        I put a little A/D in his mouth last night and this morning he voluntarily ate a small amount of A/D on his own and a couple cat treats. It was my only can of
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 2 6:09 AM
          I put a little A/D in his mouth last night and this
          morning he voluntarily ate a small amount of A/D on
          his own and a couple cat treats. It was my only can of
          A/D and Chester is way too fat to be eating the rest
          of the can if he's not refusing to eat anymore.

          The mouse did not appear to have any puncture wounds
          but Chester definitely carried it in his mouth. It was
          very tiny and not very fast, so I wondered if it was
          either very young or sick. My husband can't understand
          why I wil pick up a live mouse but not a dead one.
          Live mice are cute, dead ones are gross. Besides the
          tail makes a nice handle.

          Susan

          --- Shannon <shannon5@...> wrote:

          > I have heard of cats getting sick from mice if the
          > mice were poisoned prior
          > to being caught by the cat. I would imagine that
          > even if the cat didn't eat
          > the mouse, sinking his teeth into the mouse could
          > transmit something but
          > probably not in a large enough amount to cause
          > serious harm.
          >
          > Shannon
          > Daisy: Maine Coon mix, 4 years old, diagnosed at age
          > 1-1/2, asymptomatic
          > HCM, 6.25 mg atenolol daily
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Susan" <somnamblst@...>
          > To: "Natalie A. Sera" <nsera@...>;
          > <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:02 PM
          > Subject: Re: [FH] Maillard reaction and salmonella
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- "Natalie A. Sera" <nsera@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >>
          > >> On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:18 PM, Lclarizia@...
          > wrote:
          > >>
          > >> > In a message dated 6/1/2005 3:12:12 PM Eastern
          > >> Daylight Time,
          > >> > nsera@... writes:
          > >> >> So, what's the Maillard reaction???
          > >> >
          > >> > It's a heat conversion of carbonyl and amino
          > >> groups which result in
          > >> > browning of food. There's an explanation here:
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >>
          > >
          >
          http://www.agsci.ubc.ca/courses/fnh/410/colour/3_82.htm
          > >> >
          > >> > I believe, though don't quote me on this
          > because
          > >> I'd have to double
          > >> > check to be sure, the reaction on the free
          > amino
          > >> group of taurine
          > >> > renders it un-absorbable to the cat and food
          > for
          > >> bacteria.
          > >>
          > >> Well, if it's a browning reaction, and cooked
          > meat
          > >> browns both within
          > >> and without, it would seem as though cooked meat
          > is
          > >> not good for cats.
          > >> But if you feed them raw meat, it has the
          > >> possibility of being
          > >> contaminated with salmonella. How do cats react
          > to
          > >> salmonella?
          > >> Certainly wild cats eat raw birds and rodents,
          > but I
          > >> don't know if they
          > >> are salmonella carriers -- however,
          > factory-farmed
          > >> chicken is most
          > >> definitely a salmonella carrier!! Is it safe to
          > feed
          > >> raw, ground turkey
          > >> or chicken?
          > >>
          > >> Natalie ._c>
          > >>
          > >
          > > from:
          > >
          > >
          >
          http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=81801
          > >
          > > "The November/December 2003 issue of the Journal
          > of
          > > the American Animal Hospital Association provides
          > a
          > > case report detailing the occurrence of septicemic
          > > salmonellosis in two cats fed a raw meat diet
          > (Stiver
          > > et al. Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed A
          > > Raw-Meat Diet. J Am An Hosp Assoc 203;39:538-542.
          > > Accessible via www.jaaha.org).
          > >
          > > The two cats were part of a cattery environment
          > and
          > > demonstrated clinical signs of gastrointestinal
          > upset,
          > > weight loss, and anorexia that quickly progressed
          > to a
          > > moribund clinical state and death. Postmortem
          > > examination confirmed septicemic salmonellosis as
          > the
          > > underlying etiology with tissue cultures
          > identifying
          > > Salmonella typhimurium in one cat, and Salmonella
          > > newport in the other. Similar culture results were
          > > obtained from the raw food fed to the latter cat."
          > >
          > > My cat who spent most of yesterday playing with
          > but
          > > not eating a live wild mouse (I kept taking it
          > away
          > > from him, but somehow he kept finding it or its
          > > littermates) is today not feeling well and not
          > eating.
          > > I haven't found anything on diseases mice carry
          > that
          > > can affect a cat that has not eaten the mouse.
          > Perhaps
          > > a coincidence. He did however kill one he found in
          > the
          > > house last week, but did not eat them.
          > >
          > > Susan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

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