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  • fancidots
    I appreciate all of the kind and thoughtful responses. I have used jel medications for one of my other cats - but my vet has not mentioned that the meds he
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 31, 2004
      I appreciate all of the kind and thoughtful responses. I have
      used "jel" medications for one of my other cats - but my vet has not
      mentioned that the meds he needs are IN that form.

      I know this IS ultimately MY decision...but I DO appreciate your
      encouragement, for me to find what is best for SASQUATCH.

      I made the conscious choice to not give Sasquatch his "heart meds"
      last night - only the Pepcid. I waited a couple of hours, and was
      actually able to convince him to eat about 2 teaspoons of chicken
      baby food.

      At bedtime, I put a bowl of the "Science Diet K/D" dry food on my
      nightstand, and "called" him to come to bed with me.

      (He has been sleeping on my pillow, beside my head, since he was big
      enough to climb the side of the box springs and matress, as a tiny
      kitten, to GET there.) UNTIL I started him on the heart meds. :(

      He came in and got on the pillow - I petted him gently, for a bit -
      then he stepped off the pillow and onto the night stand, where he
      proceeded to eat a few "crunchies", then came back and laid down,
      close to my face, and purred for a little while and licked my face,
      a couple of times.

      I can't HELP wondering if the "heart" medication is causing a "bad
      taste in his mouth" that is discouraging his eating - or possibly
      making him dizzy or disoriented ???

      It's just KILLING me that the medication he needs for his heart is
      the ONE thing that makes him lose all interest in eating or being
      close to me.

      I KNOW that taking them off their medications is not good (and
      probably not smart) ... but if he will eat, and is more social
      without them -- isn't that an improvement in HIS quality of life?

      I'm going to try this, for a while, and SEE if he will gain some
      weight back OFF the heart meds, with the Pepcid, if he starts
      throwing up, again. I'm also running a cool mist vaporizer in my
      bedroom, on the opposite night-stand from where his new little food
      bowl is.

      Again, I appreciate all the encouragement and kindness here.

      Regards,
      LaVon Fabian
      "fancidots"
    • won1kiss
      There are heart meds other than Atenolol. Perhaps if you switched to another medication, his appetite would reappear. My HCM-CHF kitty was on Enalapril, then
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 31, 2004
        There are heart meds other than Atenolol. Perhaps if you switched to
        another medication, his appetite would reappear.

        My HCM-CHF kitty was on Enalapril, then we added the Atenolol a week
        or so later. Within 4 days, he was hardly moving, depressed, not
        eating a thing. I feared that we were loosing him. To make a long
        story short, it was the Atenolol. It apparently lowered his blood
        pressure so much that he COULDN'T move - or didn't want to try - and
        he certainly didn't want to eat. It took another 4 days OFF the
        medication to get him back to normal; the drastic change "on"
        versus "off" the Atenolol was amazing. I'll never give that to him
        again.

        He developed an allergic reaction to the Enalapril, and so now he is
        on Benazapril and doing as well as can be expected. He also has
        severe pericardial effusion, which we had aspirated one time, only to
        have the sac refill in a week or two. His breathing is very shallow
        (no room for lungs to expand with the pericardial effusion and
        enlarged heart), but we are hanging in there with him. As long as HE
        is hanging in there, eating well, has energy and seems happy and not
        suffering, we won't consider euthanasia.

        BTW, this kitty also sleeps on my pillow, on my head. Silly boy. :-)

        Bev
        81 mg aspirin twice a week
        50 mg CoQ-10 daily
        Furosemide and Spironolactone every 12 hours
        Benazepril
        (sorry, I don't have the dosages with me at the moment)
        *******************
        -- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "fancidots" <f.lavon@a...> wrote:
        > I appreciate all of the kind and thoughtful responses. I have
        > used "jel" medications for one of my other cats - but my vet has
        not
        > mentioned that the meds he needs are IN that form.
        >
        > I know this IS ultimately MY decision...but I DO appreciate your
        > encouragement, for me to find what is best for SASQUATCH.
        >
        >"
      • Deena
        ... wrote: I know this IS ultimately MY decision...It s just KILLING me that the medication he needs for his heart is the ONE thing that makes him lose all
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 1, 2004
          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "fancidots" <f.lavon@a...>
          wrote: "I know this IS ultimately MY decision...It's just KILLING
          me that the medication he needs for his heart is the ONE thing that
          makes him lose all interest in eating or being close to me. I KNOW
          that taking them off their medications is not good (and probably not
          smart) ... but if he will eat, and is more social without them --
          isn't that an improvement in HIS quality of life? "


          Hi LaVon,


          I truly empathize with your struggle. Many of us have had to face a
          similar situation and only you can decide what is best for both
          yourself and Sasquatch. It's a tough decision.

          When Mr Pepe got sick, I promised him to always concentrate on
          quality of life rather than quantity. It's nice in theory, but hard
          to do when faced with a choice. He was doing great on lasix &
          enalapril, so we decided to add atenolol to hopefully give him more
          time with us. First week he did fine. But the second week he
          seemed to lose the "catitude and purr-sonality" that was his
          identity. I didn't know if it was the atenolol or progression of
          the disease. I made the agonizing decision to wean him off and his
          purr-sonality quickly returned. I then chose to keep him off
          atenolol because of my promise to provide quality of life.

          Many cats do great on atenolol...others do not. I would talk to
          your vet and see if there are any alternatives.

          There are products designed for anorectic or debilitated cats that
          might help put some weight on him. The one I hear rave reviews
          about (haven't tried personally) is Wysong PDG.
          http://wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
          Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&Product_Code=NC002&Category_Code=SUP&P
          roduct_Count=8
          There are also appetite stimulants you can try.

          Life would be easier if there were more universal
          answers...right. But I'm glad you found this list for support.

          Deena & Mr Pepe Angel


          (Love his name. My son used to call my niece Sasquatch cuz she had
          size 11 feet at 13 yrs old. Poor kid)
        • won1kiss
          Yes, I would agree that it s quality not quanity of life that counts, and most veterinarians would agree with this. Most veterinarians will also counsel you,
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 1, 2004
            Yes, I would agree that it's quality not quanity of life that counts,
            and most veterinarians would agree with this. Most veterinarians
            will also counsel you, if you ask, about the appropriateness of
            euthanasia, when it may be the right time, when you may be blinded by
            pre-death grief and are making decisions more for yourself than for
            your kitty. If a veterinarian advised me outright to euthanize my
            cat, I would run the other way and find a second opinion! With my HCM-
            CHF cat, his veterinarina has been upfront from the get-go, advising
            that he could die any moment, he could live 6 months, that short of a
            heart translplant there is nothing to "cure" his problem, and that
            ultimately the decision is ours whether to euthanize today, tomorrow,
            or never. We have chosen 'never', unless or until he seems to be
            suffering.

            I think a very good guage is knowing whether or not your cat is
            happy. Certainly not eating is a crucial sign, and getting your cat
            to eat is #1 priority, IMHO. No heart medications are going to help
            if he does not eat, becomes emaciated, develops hepatic lipidosis,
            etc. So getting nurishment into him so he can keep going and keep
            somewhat healthy in spite of his heart is critical.

            I was going to emphasize that many cats do well on Enalapril - and on
            Atenolol - but as with humans, each kitty is a different individual,
            reacting differently to life and to drugs, so one must tailor-make
            medications that fit the cat. It's not a "one size fits all"
            situation. I encourage you to talk to the doc about alternative meds.

            The appetite stimulant often prescribed is called Cyproheptadine. It
            is actually an antihistamine but acts as an appetite stimulant in
            cats. You might also want to try an over-the-counter product
            available at pet stores called Nutri-Cal. It's in a tube and similar
            in consistency to the hairball formulas. It is a high-calorie
            supplement that can really pack on the pounds and stimulate
            appetite. Not all cats will gladly lick it off a plate, however, and
            putting it on the paw always meant it would soon be all over the
            room - on the floor, on the cabinets, on the cat - everywhere but in
            the cat's stomach, :/, so I always force-fed it via needle-less
            syringe.

            There are many vitamin supplements available for nutritional support.
            Vitamin B Complex is a very good supplement, safe for cats, and
            available in chewables, tablets, paste, liquids and injectables.
            Perhaps one or two injections of B Complex would help him in the
            immediate future. Consult your veterinarian.

            As always, especially with a heart kitty, I would recommend asking
            your veterinarian before adding anything on your own (e.g. Nutri-Cal,
            aspirin, CoQ-10, any other supplements). Heart patients are special
            and can do well when followed by a *competent* veterinarian who is
            CURRENT on cardiac diagnoses and treatment. If yours has not treated
            many cardiac cases (just ask!) then you might want to call around and
            find one who has. There is a LOT to know, and I believe that general
            veterinarians are sometimes not up on everything cardiac. If you do
            not have a Veterinary Cardiologist available, I highly recommend a
            Boarded Veterinary Internist.

            Best wishes,

            Bev
            ******************
            > I truly empathize with your struggle. Many of us have had to face
            a
            > similar situation and only you can decide what is best for both
            > yourself and Sasquatch. It's a tough decision.
            >
            > When Mr Pepe got sick, I promised him to always concentrate on
            > quality of life rather than quantity.
          • Susan
            ... If his BP was lowered to a point of hypotension then the atenolol dose was too high. Just as an FYI beta-blockers such as atenolol should not be stopped
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 1, 2004
              --- won1kiss <azbev@...> wrote:

              > There are heart meds other than Atenolol. Perhaps
              > if you switched to
              > another medication, his appetite would reappear.
              >
              > My HCM-CHF kitty was on Enalapril, then we added the
              > Atenolol a week
              > or so later. Within 4 days, he was hardly moving,
              > depressed, not
              > eating a thing. I feared that we were loosing him.
              > To make a long
              > story short, it was the Atenolol. It apparently
              > lowered his blood
              > pressure so much that he COULDN'T move - or didn't
              > want to try - and
              > he certainly didn't want to eat.

              If his BP was lowered to a point of hypotension then
              the atenolol dose was too high.

              Just as an FYI beta-blockers such as atenolol should
              not be stopped suddenly but reduced gradually if they
              are to be discontinued. The addition of beta-blockade
              to a treatment regimen of a diuretic (lasix) and an
              ACE-I (enalapril) is experimental in animals at this
              time but it is based on extensive human CHF trials and
              aniaml trials to benefit humans. In CHF as opposed to
              asymptomatic HCM, beta-blockade is supposed to be
              added at a very low dose and gradually titrated
              upwards. People in CHF who have the advantage of being
              able to talk say that beta-blockade does make them
              feel worse at first before making them feel better.

              My mother was on a number of the same drugs our cats
              are on for hypertension. Her BP was no longer being
              controlled and her ACE-I was dropped for a new
              beta-blocker called Metropolol. Her numerous symptoms
              of nausea, lethergy and insomnia were assumed by her
              dr. to be a result of the beta-blocker and she was
              told they would decrease with time. I was suspicous
              that her lethergy was too extreme to be an adverse
              effect of beta-blockade and I went to CVS to ask the
              pharmacist how lethergic a BB could make someone. He
              told me my mom's lethergy was too severe to be BB
              related and so she went to the ER. Her bloodwork
              showed she was suffering from low sodium due to her
              diuretic and her symptoms were from her brain
              swelling, not an adverse effect of her beta-blocker.
              My point in relating this story is that not all
              observable symptoms are drug related and that
              pharmacists are a great resource when questions arise.
              While they certainly do not study the veterinary use
              of human drugs they do understand how the drugs they
              dispense work.

              Susan



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            • lclarizia@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/1/2004 1:54:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... My non-HCM kitty does that too! HCM kitty likes to sleep on my shoulder and purrs into my
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 1, 2004
                In a message dated 9/1/2004 1:54:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                azbev@... writes:


                > BTW, this kitty also sleeps on my pillow, on my head. Silly boy. :-)

                My non-HCM kitty does that too! HCM kitty likes to sleep on my shoulder and
                purrs into my ear to wake me up to feed him.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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